Blog #106: Calling Out A Spammer (For what they are)

Sith Holocron

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Let's start this off with a very recent quote.

 

22 hours ago, Effix said:

I guess I'm getting old... I feel like your posts are a bit of a bombardment.

I've thought that very thing too!  Which led to a recent Status Update of mine.

15pXiJX.png

Wow.  That's a lot of engagement on that Status Update.

 

In case you're coming late to this party of sorts, let's bring you up to speed.  I'm talking about a recent modder which I will not mention by name.  In fact I will refer to them as "the modder in question" from here on. The modder in question has proved . . . problematic.  In short, the modder in question is a spammer.

Besides the previously alluded to inundation of the Status Updates section, this fellow loves make threads too.  And a blog.  And presumably, lots of Private Messages too.  (I was a recipient too until I blocked them.)

 

I won't even name the mod in question by the modder in question.  But ask yourself this question: how often have you seen this picture posted lately?

ZOgygef.png

If it's more than once, you may have an idea about who I'm talking about.

 

When you have a singular mod you're working on, how many WIP threads do you need for it?  And I'm not talking about threads tangential to the mod that seek advice on how to do something.  Oh no.  I'm just talking about a WIP thread. 

The answer you're likely thinking of is one

The modder in question apparently doesn't feel the same way.  The modder in question seems to think that posting several threads about the project is the correct way to go. Threads (in several sections), Status Updates, and PMs. Until very recently, there were two threads by the modder in question in the Works in Progress section alone.  One of my last acts as Staff was to merge those two threads in the WIP section together.  (Apparently, the Retirement papers took a few days to be filed.)

But then, there was a new thread posted in the General Kotor/TSL Modding section. And it's basically yet another WIP thread. You know . . . by the modder in question.

My musings aren't about a need or lack of one for the mod.  (I could have another blog dedicated to that whole topic but I fear that may be overkill.) My issue is how the site itself appears to be gamed - or to use Effix's word "Bombarded" - in order to force folks to volunteer to make the mod for the modder in question.  How many times must a thing be spammed before it's called a violation of the rules?

K2RbjBf.png

Just wondering out loud.

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I'm just going to be brutally honest but since your retirement from the staff the site/community gradually start fell out of place, and it gets worsen about a year or so ago. No moderation going like it used to, which I believe is important at some level of consideration.

I tried several times as a community-member to take initiative to be involved in some mild-engagement-moderation though not so often recently as I should have to, probably -- but the amount of non-sense lately just overwhelming and bad at my part -- I start to ignore them.

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Neville. Is it not allowed to mention the one you're talking about? Come on...


 

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4 hours ago, ebmar said:

since your retirement from the staff the site/community gradually start fell out of place

Don't worry, he'll be back.

SH.thumb.jpg.2497b805a62ad5cb5e08e5ebe0a35b4c.jpg

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I asked and I did not use Private Messages. In 2015, I had communication with SithSpecter to create a helmet. I could not make a mod because no one took interest in a post, about basics of creating a mod or a post under requests and people literally laughed when I asked questions in Instant Messenger. The post became something people ignored. When I started work again, I sent messages for help. Most are unanswered still. ebmar did not reply when Dark Hope told me to contact him.

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5 minutes ago, Neville said:

I asked and I did not use Private Messages. In 2015, I had communication with SithSpecter to create a helmet. I could not make a mod because no one took interest in a post, about basics of creating a mod or a post under requests and people literally laughed when I asked questions in Instant Messenger. The post became something people ignored. When I started work again, I sent messages for help. Most are unanswered still.

In other words, everything SithHolocron said is true?

From my experience people are willing to help. If everyone is mean to you it's because you're doing something no one likes. Maybe you aren't reading the tutorials on the site and the internet. Maybe you aren't giving people time to reply. Maybe you're asking too much all at once. I don't know what it is, but no one else seems to have this problem.

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1 hour ago, AmanoJyaku said:

In other words, everything SithHolocron said is true?

From my experience people are willing to help. If everyone is mean to you it's because you're doing something no one likes. Maybe you aren't reading the tutorials on the site and the internet. Maybe you aren't giving people time to reply. Maybe you're asking too much all at once. I don't know what it is, but no one else seems to have this problem.

People laughed because they thought scripts were easy to make. I am doing all I can. I only recently learned how to work with dialogue and scripting. I know basics of modelling and texturing. Most is beyond my skill. I have been looking at every tutorial. I wait weeks, sometimes, for replies. I exchanged messages with Sith Holocron because of things I do not know and because I wanted to know how he created a portrait image. It has been almost a month since I tried to contact ebmar. ebmar did not reply. When I requested new armor and someone to provide voice in my blog, I was criticized. People have told me to abandon work. I will not. I gave Sith Holocron credit for work. He gave me Dark Side points. When I changed status update, Sith Holocron stated it was the same as before. READ then rate.

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1 hour ago, Neville said:

People laughed because they thought scripts were easy to make. I am doing all I can. I only recently learned how to work with dialogue and scripting. I know basics of modelling and texturing. Most is beyond my skill. I have been looking at every tutorial. I wait weeks, sometimes, for replies. I exchanged messages with Sith Holocron because of things I do not know and because I wanted to know how he created a portrait image. It has been almost a month since I tried to contact ebmar. ebmar did not reply. When I requested new armor and someone to provide voice in my blog, I was criticized. People have told me to abandon work. I will not. I gave Sith Holocron credit for work. He gave me Dark Side points. When I changed status update, Sith Holocron stated it was the same as before. READ then rate.

It sounds like you're trying to do too much. I can learn NWScript in a few days because I have years of experience writing scripts and programs. It doesn't seem like you have any scripting or programming experience, so it will take you months of dedicated practice to learn how to write scripts. Afterward, you will need to learn the basics of the files that make up the games.

You also need to accept that other modders have lives of their own, they don't always have the time to help you.

Lastly, you need to learn to listen. I tried to help you with your scripting and you didn't follow my instructions. I gave you a numbered list so you could start from step 1 and you failed to follow it. That might be why so many people ignore you.

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11 hours ago, AmanoJyaku said:

It sounds like you're trying to do too much. I can learn NWScript in a few days because I have years of experience writing scripts and programs. It doesn't seem like you have any scripting or programming experience, so it will take you months of dedicated practice to learn how to write scripts. Afterward, you will need to learn the basics of the files that make up the games.

You also need to accept that other modders have lives of their own, they don't always have the time to help you.

Lastly, you need to learn to listen. I tried to help you with your scripting and you didn't follow my instructions. I gave you a numbered list so you could start from step 1 and you failed to follow it. That might be why so many people ignore you.

I started trying in 2015. I have worked with binary, C++, HTML, and Java. I tried following your instructions, but it was becoming a struggle. I found another way of getting my scripting tool to work again. I analyzed script and dialogue from the game, tutorials, and other mods to create what I have currently. I found a way to turn basic clothing into armor. I restored KotOR weapons for TSL, I learned how to modify merchants and placeables, and I learned how to change basic appearance. I am trying to create a new helmet model based on past experience.

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8 hours ago, Neville said:

I started trying in 2015. I have worked with binary, C++, HTML, and Java. I tried following your instructions, but it was becoming a struggle. I found another way of getting my scripting tool to work again. I analyzed script and dialogue from the game, tutorials, and other mods to create what I have currently. I found a way to turn basic clothing into armor. I restored KotOR weapons for TSL, I learned how to modify merchants and placeables, and I learned how to change basic appearance. I am trying to create a new model based on past experience.

If you have this much experience and you're still struggling that would explain why someone told you to give up (if that's even true). You may be overestimating your capability, or attempting too much. But, I see no reason why you've been asking for the help you have when there are so many solutions available from people who ran into the same problems.

For example, I also had the issue with KoTOR Script Tool that you encountered. So I just stopped using it and directly used nwnnsscomp, and haven't had any problems since.

At some point you have to become self-sufficient. If you need help it shouldn't be because of old problems. It should be because of things no one has ever seen (I found a bug in nwnnsscomp, now I may have to write a replacement for it), or because the project is too large for one person to complete in a reasonable time frame (for example, TSLRCM).

 

tl;dr

Learn to use a search engine, and try things before you ask for help.

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22 hours ago, ebmar said:

I'm just going to be brutally honest but since your retirement from the staff the site/community gradually start fell out of place, and it gets worsen about a year or so ago. No moderation going like it used to, which I believe is important at some level of consideration.

I tried several times as a community-member to take initiative to be involved in some mild-engagement-moderation though not so often recently as I should have to, probably -- but the amount of non-sense lately just overwhelming and bad at my part -- I start to ignore them.

I really do hope that @Tyvokka and anyone else involved in the process do consider hiring out more staff to fill in the gaps, I too have been seeing a plethora of odd behaviour on these forums since Sith Holocrons departure.

 

I once had another individual, who shall not be named, PM me on almost a daily basis asking me to help with his mod installation whilst at the same time creating a help thread with a copy n paste of what he wrote for me in my PM, since we aren't in the same time zone that meant he'd send me a PM and create a help thread at 3 AM and between 8 to 14 hours when I am awake and can read his PM it turns out his problem has already been solved in the help thread... and he'd do this on almost a daily basis.

 

Then there are those few people who revive years old threads from over half a decade ago whether it be dead request or WIP threads and say things which don't advance the original thread, like asking a question to the original poster (who hasn't been online since 2016) or say the obvious like "I made a similar request. I worked on the character, the weapon, and the armor, but it did not get much attention for help."

That last bit was by our culprit here, Neville. I would to stress this out, bumping really old threads is utterly pointless. The old thread in which Neville bumped was called "Recruit Mayla" by "HelloWeasel", this thread was started in March 2016 with last activity in May 2016 whilst the original poster, HelloWeasel, has not been online since October 2017.

 

Tldr, that WIP is dead and forgotten, digging out it's dead corpse only to state the obvious isn't helping anyone.

 

14 hours ago, Neville said:

I asked and I did not use Private Messages.

Are you suggesting you didn't use Private Messages back in 2015? If you are, I would treat that as factual.

 

But this year, I am fairly certain you have, Sith Holocron might rage quite... but he doesn't rage for no reason.

 

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In 2015, I had communication with SithSpecter to create a helmet.

You are referring to @Sithspecter's helmet mod found here on Deadlystream.

 

https://deadlystream.com/files/file/711-republic-helmet/

 

Maybe you've worded this wrong and I'm just taking this literally, but I must point this out. The Republic Helmet mod was created in 2008 and proof of this can be found here:

 

https://www.gamefront.com/games/knights-of-the-old-republic/file/republic-helmet

 

The FileFront admin review quotes:
 

Spoiler

It's always nice when a modder comes along and fulfills a request, since not everyone has the time or the inclination to learn how to mod themselves. This time it's Sithspecter who's up to the task.

And the FileFront admin who wrote this has the signature "JC", could've been @JCarter426. So that leaves me with two possibilities: Either you A) Where present on LucasForums back in 2008, had "communication" with SithSpecter to create a helmet" as you claim, or B,) You asked SithSpecter in 2015 for permission to use his helmet mod in your own.

 

I don't doubt Sithspecter gave you permission to use the helmet, in the past, he even gave me @N-DReW25 and @masternetra permission to use the helmet. But unlike you, me and masternetra have released our mods with the helmet included. I recall a similar situation like this with a user named Salk, he'd obtained permission from modder's back in 2010 back on LucasForum and was only able to promise a release of his mod in 2017 and 2020. Obviously, the staff here needed hardcore proof that he DID in fact ask for permission to use the mods as it would be easy to lie about permission.

 

From what he showed, I personally felt that the archived LucasForum email copies of the permission PMs he had was proof enough though this didn't cut it with Deadlystream Staff so as such Salk needed to obtain those permissions again. The problem with Salk is that A) LucasForum at the time was gone for good, no way could he retrieve the PMs as proof B,) Half of the modders from 2010 are also gone for good with no means of contacting and C) Salk had a finished mod he couldn't publish because of those problems.

 

In the end, it turned out that Salk forgot to ask one modder for permission and thus that modder retaliated by demanding the mod be removed, Salk thought the mod wasn't worth the hassle and abandoned his mod.

 

Salk dug himself into a pit which was rapidly filling up with water, I don't think you've done that. You said you asked SithSpecter for permission in 2015? All you'd have to do is scroll down in your PMs to 2015, find the SithSpecter PM in which he granted you permission and screenshot it as proof that you have permission to use SithSpecter's mod in your mod.

 

If you don't have proof (Maybe you deleted it etc), since you aren't in the stages in which you are ready to release a mod all you'd need to do is ask SithSpecter for permission again. 

 

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I could not make a mod because no one took interest in a post, about basics of creating a mod or a post under requests and people literally laughed when I asked questions in Instant Messenger. The post became something people ignored. When I started work again, I sent messages for help. Most are unanswered still. ebmar did not reply when Dark Hope told me to contact him.

When we concept a mod, we always view our own work as brilliant. But when you show a "proof of concept" and ask for help in making your "concept" come to life in the form of a mod, some people may not be able to give you a comment, this could be due to a variety of reasons such as:

Poor writing: Such as asking a question on the title and leaving the post blank, stupidly poor english skills without justification (English being a secondary language is a valid justification)

Lack of Common Sense: Making the same mistake over and over, ignoring valuable feedback, showing a lack of online social skills

Poor concept: No one would want to help make a Kotor 3 mod if the only thing someone can bring to the table is "concept art" drawn in a notebook 

Rudeness: Being a a*shole to people, writing IN ALL CAPS WITH THE INTENT OF YELLING AT OTHERS.

 

I'm sure you haven't done these things, and I assure you, the reasons stated above aren't the only reasons why people might ignore your pleas. But when you present an idea for a mod, and you haven't done anything else, you'd be lucky if anyone comments on your post to begin with. Modder's like @DarthParametric will have users swarming any WIP thread he makes because we as a community know his work, and we know his mods are beautifully made.

 

As someone who is new to modding, we as a community do not know your talents and as such many probably won't be interested in Recruit Sarna until it is released. This happened to me as well,  in 2016 I wanted to make a modding team to make a big, fun mod called the "K1 Gameplay Improvement". I got enough help so that my modding journey could take off, and that journey was stormy, at times I wanted to quite as it was too stressful and at the time I didn't know my ropes around the whole "modding" thing.

 

I obviously had help, I asked questions just like you did and got some form of help as you are... but from what I can tell, the people who are helping you appear to be getting stressed and frustrated as you do not seem to want to take the lead with your own mod, you appear to want everyone else to do most of the work you should be doing. This is your mod, your concept, and is ultimately your responsibility to do. You claim you have coding experience today, back in 2016 when I first started making mods, I made mods because I was bored, I had no prior experience. It took over 4 years for me to finally complete my big mod and I did 95% of the work all on my own, I had to learn the ropes of modding on my own and if I couldn't find a solution... sometimes I just had to abandon a certain aspect of my mod and move on until I could find a solution.

 

Heck, several years ago I wanted my very own section on the forums just like VarsityPuppet. It didn't happen, but that didn't stop me from having a good time and creating my mods!

 

So once upon a time, I was like you, mostly ignored and not much faith in my mod concepts. It wasn't until my the community began to see my modding potential that players began to realize "this looks cool, I want to play N-DReW25's mods!" and obviously, people will only say that about your mod when you have something to physically deliver them.

 

Personally, I HOPE you keep going on your mod and finish it. Along the way, you will learn how to make better mods and hopefully one day you'll present a mod which someone could enjoy.

 

14 hours ago, AmanoJyaku said:

From my experience people are willing to help. If everyone is mean to you it's because you're doing something no one likes.

New modders should always view their own mod ideas as a business product, your mod must be 'attractive' in a sense for people to want to both help you make the mod and eventually play your mod. If you can't do both of those things, when you do release your mod not many people will play it unfortunately.

 

Recruitment mods which are successful have a few things: A) A new party member with a new backstory and content B,) New appearances to freshen the experience C) good writing

 

You picked an NPC which already exists, which is ok, there is another mod called "Recruitable Mekel" which fleshes out and expands the character Mekel is a good way, the thing is... Mekel technically has a unique head.

 

You picked Sarna... an NPC with a generic head which is used all throughout the game, that isn't fresh... that isn't attractive to players who'd want to play a recruitment mod and to modders who can help you that might just look lazy. It kind of feels as if you've just put in the names of every generic character into a spinning wheel and it picked Sarna for you.

Spoiler

5a19075c6372b96adf2ddc91b3c79687.png&f=1

 

In my opinion, you'd have better luck picking Lashowe, at least she has a unique head and is somewhat of an interesting side character.

 

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Maybe you aren't reading the tutorials on the site and the internet. Maybe you aren't giving people time to reply. Maybe you're asking too much all at once. I don't know what it is, but no one else seems to have this problem.

/I\

 I

 I

THIS RIGHT HERE IS GOLDEN ADVICE! 

 

14 hours ago, Neville said:

People laughed because they thought scripts were easy to make.

I have a hard time believing people on the Deadlystream forums "laughed" at you, if you could provide screenshots of such as evidence that'd be great. If this occurred outside of Deadlystream (or the Kotor Modding Reddit) on another platform then that is outside of our jurisdiction.

 

I've been a modder for 5 years with two big successful mods under my belt with about 20 lesser mods alongside those and even I myself find it difficult to make scripts for this game.

 

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I am doing all I can. I only recently learned how to work with dialogue and scripting. I know basics of modelling and texturing. Most is beyond my skill.

Modding requires patience, if you find it too hard you can either keep learning, and keep trying... or you can have a break and stop. Don't force yourself to make a mod if it's stressing you out or affecting you in real life.

 

If you are stuck in the mud with modding, once you finally learn what you're doing and you can finally get out of the mod, it doesn't really become easier for a modder, you just realize there's more mud where that came from. That's the best way I can describe making mods.

 

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I have been looking at every tutorial. I wait weeks, sometimes, for replies. I exchanged messages with Sith Holocron because of things I do not know and because I wanted to know how he created a portrait image.

I've been considering this for a while, but I may just create a video tutorial on how I personally create textures and portrait images for K1 and K2.

 

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It has been almost a month since I tried to contact ebmar. ebmar did not reply.

People aren't necessarily obliged to reply help I'm afraid, but I am certain a person like ebmar would have a good reason as to why he didn't reply. Maybe he himself is too busy with his own mods or real life problems to reply to ANY PM he gets, maybe you wrote your PM poorly and he was turned off from your mod idea.

 

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When I requested new armor and someone to provide voice in my blog, I was criticized.

No you weren't, you where ignored. The nicest Sith Holocron has ever been to you is probably in your blog, Qui-Gon Glenn told you in a sarcastic, yet very friendly way, that he isn't making YOUR mod for you. Every other comment since then, you where ignored.

 

Btw, you do voice in mods last, that's an unspoken rule. It is better to have a Recruitment mod with no VO then to get VO first and then cancel your mod (You would've wasted the VO actress' time if you did that so this is a safety rule).

 

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People have told me to abandon work. I will not.

I was harsh when I told you that, my intent was to say you should treat your mod as if they 'will' fail. Mods are always abandoned for reasons we may not see today, whether that be finding modding too hard or literally having health issues stopping you from modding as was the case with @Logan23's ROR mod back in the day. 

 

Personally, I make my mods in secret... that way, if I have to stop modding, I won't let anybody down... if I died tomorrow, no one is going to be disappointed that I didn't release my super fun mods which I may or may not be developing. Of course, I don't actually *stop* my modding, I take my time to make my mods to ensure that the players receive the best mod they can receive to the best of my own ability. 

 

Keep modding, I hope to see your mod finished one day. Though you shouldn't be so sure you will ever finish any mod, the thought of failure should ideally be something which spurs you on to keep creating mod. But I can't/shouldn't force you to think like I do.

 

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I gave Sith Holocron credit for work. He gave me Dark Side points.

Ok, when he did that he was pissed with you. Hence is why he did that.

 

Quote

When I changed status update, Sith Holocron stated it was the same as before.

I don't know what "changed status update" means, but I assume you meant you delete your spam. What Sith Holocron is angry about is that you spammed the Status Updates in the first place, deleting the spam is like cleaning up the glass after you smashed a window. Legit, the first two was you, one was Basil Bonehead, and the last two was you again and I'm certain there was more status update spam after that which wasn't displayed on the home screen.

 

Plus, the contents of your status updates aren't interesting for people to want to respond in any way. You might as well of said what you said in your status update in your thread and no one would've noticed as I feel you complaining about modding problems probably belongs inside your thread then a status update.

 

Quote

READ then rate.

Again, your poor literacy and lack of context isn't helping you here.

 

13 hours ago, AmanoJyaku said:

You also need to accept that other modders have lives of their own, they don't always have the time to help you.

/I\

 I

 I

MORE GOLDEN ADVICE! 

 

Quote

Lastly, you need to learn to listen. I tried to help you with your scripting and you didn't follow my instructions. I gave you a numbered list so you could start from step 1 and you failed to follow it. That might be why so many people ignore you.

/I\

 I

 I

THANK YOU!

 

This is giving me SO much nostalgia, back when I first started modding even *I* needed a step by step help guide to get me started! I would like to point out, even though some users like AmanoJyaku may not have uploaded mods of their own to Deadlystream.com, that doesn't mean their intelligence or ability to help is low or unreliable... if they are helping you, accept the goddam help! But I don't think Neville is ignoring your instructions on purpose or for discriminatory reasons here.

 

12 hours ago, Neville said:

I started trying in 2015. I have worked with binary, C++, HTML, and Java. I tried following your instructions, but it was becoming a struggle. I found another way of getting my scripting tool to work again. I analyzed script and dialogue from the game, tutorials, and other mods to create what I have currently. I found a way to turn basic clothing into armor. I restored KotOR weapons for TSL, I learned how to modify merchants and placeables, and I learned how to change basic appearance. I am trying to create a new model based on past experience.

So tell me, if you can basic things like modify merchants and placeables and presumably other things... why not stick to that first? Why must you jump into a really hard modding project like a recruitment mod?

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On 6/12/2021 at 12:52 PM, N-DReW25 said:

I once had another individual, who shall not be named, PM me on almost a daily basis asking me to help with his mod installation whilst at the same time creating a help thread with a copy n paste of what he wrote for me in my PM, since we aren't in the same time zone that meant he'd send me a PM and create a help thread at 3 AM and between 8 to 14 hours when I am awake and can read his PM it turns out his problem has already been solved in the help thread... and he'd do this on almost a daily basis.

Are you suggesting you didn't use Private Messages back in 2015? If you are, I would treat that as factual.

 

But this year, I am fairly certain you have, Sith Holocron might rage quite... but he doesn't rage for no reason.

 

You are referring to @Sithspecter's helmet mod found here on Deadlystream.

 

https://deadlystream.com/files/file/711-republic-helmet/

 

Maybe you've worded this wrong and I'm just taking this literally, but I must point this out. The Republic Helmet mod was created in 2008 and proof of this can be found here:

 

https://www.gamefront.com/games/knights-of-the-old-republic/file/republic-helmet

 

The FileFront admin review quotes:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

It's always nice when a modder comes along and fulfills a request, since not everyone has the time or the inclination to learn how to mod themselves. This time it's Sithspecter who's up to the task.

And the FileFront admin who wrote this has the signature "JC", could've been @JCarter426. So that leaves me with two possibilities: Either you A) Where present on LucasForums back in 2008, had "communication" with SithSpecter to create a helmet" as you claim, or B,) You asked SithSpecter in 2015 for permission to use his helmet mod in your own.

 

I don't doubt Sithspecter gave you permission to use the helmet, in the past, he even gave me @N-DReW25 and @masternetra permission to use the helmet. But unlike you, me and masternetra have released our mods with the helmet included. I recall a similar situation like this with a user named Salk, he'd obtained permission from modder's back in 2010 back on LucasForum and was only able to promise a release of his mod in 2017 and 2020. Obviously, the staff here needed hardcore proof that he DID in fact ask for permission to use the mods as it would be easy to lie about permission.

 

From what he showed, I personally felt that the archived LucasForum email copies of the permission PMs he had was proof enough though this didn't cut it with Deadlystream Staff so as such Salk needed to obtain those permissions again. The problem with Salk is that A) LucasForum at the time was gone for good, no way could he retrieve the PMs as proof B,) Half of the modders from 2010 are also gone for good with no means of contacting and C) Salk had a finished mod he couldn't publish because of those problems.

 

In the end, it turned out that Salk forgot to ask one modder for permission and thus that modder retaliated by demanding the mod be removed, Salk thought the mod wasn't worth the hassle and abandoned his mod.

 

Salk dug himself into a pit which was rapidly filling up with water, I don't think you've done that. You said you asked SithSpecter for permission in 2015? All you'd have to do is scroll down in your PMs to 2015, find the SithSpecter PM in which he granted you permission and screenshot it as proof that you have permission to use SithSpecter's mod in your mod.

 

If you don't have proof (Maybe you deleted it etc), since you aren't in the stages in which you are ready to release a mod all you'd need to do is ask SithSpecter for permission again. 

 

When we concept a mod, we always view our own work as brilliant. But when you show a "proof of concept" and ask for help in making your "concept" come to life in the form of a mod, some people may not be able to give you a comment, this could be due to a variety of reasons such as:

Poor writing: Such as asking a question on the title and leaving the post blank, stupidly poor english skills without justification (English being a secondary language is a valid justification)

Lack of Common Sense: Making the same mistake over and over, ignoring valuable feedback, showing a lack of online social skills

Poor concept: No one would want to help make a Kotor 3 mod if the only thing someone can bring to the table is "concept art" drawn in a notebook 

Rudeness: Being a a*shole to people, writing IN ALL CAPS WITH THE INTENT OF YELLING AT OTHERS.

 

I'm sure you haven't done these things, and I assure you, the reasons stated above aren't the only reasons why people might ignore your pleas. But when you present an idea for a mod, and you haven't done anything else, you'd be lucky if anyone comments on your post to begin with. Modder's like @DarthParametric will have users swarming any WIP thread he makes because we as a community know his work, and we know his mods are beautifully made.

 

As someone who is new to modding, we as a community do not know your talents and as such many probably won't be interested in Recruit Sarna until it is released. This happened to me as well,  in 2016 I wanted to make a modding team to make a big, fun mod called the "K1 Gameplay Improvement". I got enough help so that my modding journey could take off, and that journey was stormy, at times I wanted to quite as it was too stressful and at the time I didn't know my ropes around the whole "modding" thing.

 

Personally, I HOPE you keep going on your mod and finish it. Along the way, you will learn how to make better mods and hopefully one day you'll present a mod which someone could enjoy.

 

New modders should always view their own mod ideas as a business product, your mod must be 'attractive' in a sense for people to want to both help you make the mod and eventually play your mod. If you can't do both of those things, when you do release your mod not many people will play it unfortunately.

 

Recruitment mods which are successful have a few things: A) A new party member with a new backstory and content B,) New appearances to freshen the experience C) good writing

 

You picked an NPC which already exists, which is ok, there is another mod called "Recruitable Mekel" which fleshes out and expands the character Mekel is a good way, the thing is... Mekel technically has a unique head.

 

You picked Sarna... an NPC with a generic head which is used all throughout the game, that isn't fresh... that isn't attractive to players who'd want to play a recruitment mod and to modders who can help you that might just look lazy. It kind of feels as if you've just put in the names of every generic character into a spinning wheel and it picked Sarna for you.

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In my opinion, you'd have better luck picking Lashowe, at least she has a unique head and is somewhat of an interesting side character.

 

/I\

 I

 I

THIS RIGHT HERE IS GOLDEN ADVICE! 

 

I have a hard time believing people on the Deadlystream forums "laughed" at you, if you could provide screenshots of such as evidence that'd be great. If this occurred outside of Deadlystream (or the Kotor Modding Reddit) on another platform then that is outside of our jurisdiction.

 

I've been a modder for 5 years with two big successful mods under my belt with about 20 lesser mods alongside those and even I myself find it difficult to make scripts for this game.

 

Modding requires patience, if you find it too hard you can either keep learning, and keep trying... or you can have a break and stop. Don't force yourself to make a mod if it's stressing you out or affecting you in real life.

 

If you are stuck in the mud with modding, once you finally learn what you're doing and you can finally get out of the mod, it doesn't really become easier for a modder, you just realize there's more mud where that came from. That's the best way I can describe making mods.

 

I've been considering this for a while, but I may just create a video tutorial on how I personally create textures and portrait images for K1 and K2.

 

People aren't necessarily obliged to reply help I'm afraid, but I am certain a person like ebmar would have a good reason as to why he didn't reply. Maybe he himself is too busy with his own mods or real life problems to reply to ANY PM he gets, maybe you wrote your PM poorly and he was turned off from your mod idea.

 

No you weren't, you where ignored. The nicest Sith Holocron has ever been to you is probably in your blog, Qui-Gon Glenn told you in a sarcastic, yet very friendly way, that he isn't making YOUR mod for you. Every other comment since then, you where ignored.

 

Btw, you do voice in mods last, that's an unspoken rule. It is better to have a Recruitment mod with no VO then to get VO first and then cancel your mod (You would've wasted the VO actress' time if you did that so this is a safety rule).

 

I was harsh when I told you that, my intent was to say you should treat your mod as if they 'will' fail. Mods are always abandoned for reasons we may not see today, whether that be finding modding too hard or literally having health issues stopping you from modding as was the case with @Logan23's ROR mod back in the day. 

 

Personally, I make my mods in secret... that way, if I have to stop modding, I won't let anybody down... if I died tomorrow, no one is going to be disappointed that I didn't release my super fun mods which I may or may not be developing. Of course, I don't actually *stop* my modding, I take my time to make my mods to ensure that the players receive the best mod they can receive to the best of my own ability. 

 

Keep modding, I hope to see your mod finished one day. Though you shouldn't be so sure you will ever finish any mod, the thought of failure should ideally be something which spurs you on to keep creating mod. But I can't/shouldn't force you to think like I do.

 

Ok, when he did that he was pissed with you. Hence is why he did that.

 

I don't know what "changed status update" means, but I assume you meant you delete your spam. What Sith Holocron is angry about is that you spammed the Status Updates in the first place, deleting the spam is like cleaning up the glass after you smashed a window. Legit, the first two was you, one was Basil Bonehead, and the last two was you again and I'm certain there was more status update spam after that which wasn't displayed on the home screen.

 

Again, your poor literacy and lack of context isn't helping you here.

 

/I\

 I

 I

MORE GOLDEN ADVICE! 

 

/I\

 I

 I

THANK YOU!

 

This is giving me SO much nostalgia, back when I first started modding even *I* needed a step by step help guide to get me started! I would like to point out, even though some users like AmanoJyaku may not have uploaded mods of their own to Deadlystream.com, that doesn't mean their intelligence or ability to help is low or unreliable... if they are helping you, accept the goddam help! But I don't think Neville is ignoring your instructions on purpose or for discriminatory reasons here.

 

So tell me, if you can basic things like modify merchants and placeables and presumably other things... why not stick to that first? Why must you jump into a really hard modding project like a recruitment mod?

 

I would like to point out, according to rumours, you went as far as to spam YouTube comment sections regarding Deadlystream topics. I did not witness this so I cannot really put my 5 cents into this, but if this true... you shouldn't be surprised if people may view you negatively due to toxic behaviour like that.

SithSpecter modified the Republic Helmet model for me, showed me how to create models with NWMax/GMax, gave permission to use his work in other mods on LucasForums, and seemed fine with my use of his mod. He stated only that mods involving porting are unlikely to get support. I have not looked closely at YouTube tutorials, and have not made any comments on YouTube. I asked where I could find tutorials from LucasForums.  I had a post on this site regarding creating a soldier to replace Bastila. There used to be an Instant Messenger feature on this site. A member laughed when I stated I was having difficulty with the Recruit Function. I am making attempts to make a Republic helmet of an older type and to modify the head model used for Sarna. I picked her because she is a soldier with reason to fight the Sith. Sarna uses the same head model as Selven. I posted backstory for Sarna and it is in dialogue I created.

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Wow did I just read all that and @N-DReW25's entire message just for @Neville to not even respond to a single thing that had been said?

@Neville

As others have mentioned you really need to tear the game apart file by file and learn how it all works. ( this is the best approach to modding any video game in my opinion because then you know how it all fits together )

I had a similar experience when first arriving, my ideas outlandish or crazy ( though I don't think your ideas are crazy ) and possibly far out of my ability and it seemed not many wanted to listen or help, but I did get some help here and there which gave me headstart on learning, though at the same time before I knew it I was learning more by taking the game apart.

Even now I know I am doing things wrong here and there, sometimes cutting corners, but regularly I go back to those cut corners, have a go at myself and try to fix them up.

I wouldn't even be surprised if I talk too much or ask too much still from time to time ( as I know I do )

But sometimes you just got to take a step back, give yourself a kick up the backside and just carry on.

Also it's generally considered nice to reply to what somebody has to say instead of once again repeating yourself...

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7 hours ago, Neville said:

SithSpecter modified the Republic Helmet model for me, showed me how to create models with NWMax/GMax, gave permission to use his work in other mods on LucasForums, and seemed fine with my use of his mod. He stated only that mods involving porting are unlikely to get support. I have not looked closely at YouTube tutorials, and have not made any comments on YouTube. I asked where I could find tutorials from LucasForums.  I had a post on this site regarding creating a soldier to replace Bastila. There used to be an Instant Messenger feature on this site. A member laughed when I stated I was having difficulty with the Recruit Function. I am making attempts to make a Republic helmet of an older type and to modify the head model used for Sarna. Sarna uses the same head model as Selven. I posted backstory for Sarna and it is in dialogue I created.

We could seriously solve this whole thing if we asked Sithspecter right now. If indeed you got permission from them, it shouldn't be hard to verify if that is true. 

In case you never got an answer (which I doubt), I found the old archive zip Qui Gon Glenn saved https://deadlystream.com/topic/6913-lucasforums-tutorial-archive/

And the entire tutorial directory backed up here http://lucasforumsarchive.com/forum/595

 

It's generally my personal experience to post a WIP thread one time and then fill it with your ideas as you have them, which will allow time for people to respond to them if they can without bloating the forum.

 

Additionally, you want any specific requests for help to be as concise as possible. A Step-By-Step solution is incredibly rare, as that requires other users to be there to respond to each and every question as you figure it out.

So, if you want legitimate help it's far more advantageous to do your own research so you're able to ask specific things like "Which tools do I use to manipulate GFF files?" or "Which 2DA files do I need to change for clothing changes".

This way, you're not spending other people's time more than you have to (Most modders also have full-time employment, and modding has to take a back seat)

 

And the last point I can't stress enough, just because you get no responses, it isn't something personal. People have lives and if you're serious about modding, you have to be willing to wait weeks or even a month on rare occasions to get a constructive reply; and if you do get a reply offering to help, treat it like the amazing thing that it is and respect that other person's time.

They are doing this for free and shouldn't be demanded of: no exceptions.

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On 6/12/2021 at 10:11 PM, Malkior said:

We could seriously solve this whole thing if we asked Sithspecter right now. If indeed you got permission from them, it shouldn't be hard to verify if that is true. 

In case you never got an answer (which I doubt), I found the old archive zip Qui Gon Glenn saved https://deadlystream.com/topic/6913-lucasforums-tutorial-archive/

And the entire tutorial directory backed up here http://lucasforumsarchive.com/forum/595

 

It's generally my personal experience to post a WIP thread one time and then fill it with your ideas as you have them, which will allow time for people to respond to them if they can without bloating the forum.

 

Additionally, you want any specific requests for help to be as concise as possible. A Step-By-Step solution is incredibly rare, as that requires other users to be there to respond to each and every question as you figure it out.

So, if you want legitimate help it's far more advantageous to do your own research so you're able to ask specific things like "Which tools do I use to manipulate GFF files?" or "Which 2DA files do I need to change for clothing changes".

This way, you're not spending other people's time more than you have to (Most modders also have full-time employment, and modding has to take a back seat)

 

And the last point I can't stress enough, just because you get no responses, it isn't something personal. People have lives and if you're serious about modding, you have to be willing to wait weeks or even a month on rare occasions to get a constructive reply; and if you do get a reply offering to help, treat it like the amazing thing that it is and respect that other person's time.

They are doing this for free and shouldn't be demanded of: no exceptions.

When I stated SithSpecter modified the helmet, note that the helmet model I have has a chinstrap. I messaged SithSpecter because a lot of comunication was on Instant Messenger, which the site no longer has. I am checking Private Messages.

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1 hour ago, Neville said:

When I stated SithSpecter modified the helmet, note that the helmet model I have has a chinstrap. I messaged SithSpecter because a lot of communication was on Instant Messenger, which the site no longer has. I am checking Private Messages.

Why check your Private Messages when you can ask @Sithspecterhere.  In public.  Hey @Sithspecter, can he use your mod?

As long I have you here: Neville, isn't it high time to finally stop using this picture?

ZOgygef.png

We get it - you love the picture.  One posting of it per thread is more than enough though. 

Speaking of threads, one WIP thread for Sarna related things is more than enough for the Works In Progress section.  You have two at the moment.  (Before I retired, it was three.)  If you actually want folks to help you, don't divide your effort over multiple threads.  Ask an administrator to merge them for you.

Lastly, only quote something if you're going to reply to the questions.  Crop out what you're not going to reply to.  That's just simple common sense.

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6 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

Why check your Private Messages when you can ask @Sithspecterhere.  In public.  Hey @Sithspecter, can he use your mod?

As long I have you here: Neville, isn't it high time to finally stop using this picture?

ZOgygef.png

We get it - you love the picture.  One posting of it per thread is more than enough though. 

Speaking of threads, one WIP thread for Sarna related things is more than enough for the Works In Progress section.  You have two at the moment.  (Before I retired, it was three.)  If you actually want folks to help you, don't divide your effort over multiple threads.  Ask an administrator to merge them for you.

Lastly, only quote something if you're going to reply to the questions.  Crop out what you're not going to reply to.  That's just simple common sense.

I did not know how to crop sections, and I have not posted that picture in a while. I found this in my old Private Messages, and I sent a message to SithSpecter.

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@Sith Holocron 

Is there a way to crop replies? I've always just hit the Quote button multiple times, and deleted the extra text, but that is sort of an esoteric thing to give a new person grief about.

I get that you're trying to keep the forum clean, but going after one person for their multiple posts is only going to engender conflict and ultimately poison the well of Good Will we've cultivated on this site so far. 

@Nevile

Honestly I was expecting your various threads to be deleted as they took up more and more space, but if merging them is an option, then I would highly recommend doing so if you can. I can't blame you for not knowing these rules (Unless they were stated explicitly in the Rules in which case, I apologize to the Admins for not knowing). However, now that you've been informed, it would be quite beneficial to yourself and the community if you do something about removing multiple threads on the same topic. Whether explicitly stated or not, those are the rules which we follow so that one person doesn't monopolize the forums.

Lastly, I can see that Sith Specter was at the very least agreeable with you using those assets and potentially doing alterations on them. However, that post alone doesn't prove whether there were any other further conditions or if Sith Specter feels the same way now as was felt in the time that screencap was taken, so it'd remove any doubts if you could just send Sith Specter a PM and then we can hear from them personally whether you were allowed.

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32 minutes ago, Neville said:

and I have not posted that picture in a while.

Are you sure about that? Leaving aside your Status Updates . . .

Character Portraits thread - posted once (here)

Mod Finishing thread - posted twice (here and here)

[WIP]Recruit Sarna thread - posted twice (here and here)

 

8 minutes ago, Malkior said:

@Sith Holocron 

Is there a way to crop replies? I've always just hit the Quote button multiple times, and deleted the extra text, but that is sort of an esoteric thing to give a new person grief about.

New person?  He's been here since 2015. 

And by crop, I mean do indeed mean deleting the unnecessary text. 

And he is replying in my Blog.

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5 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

New person?  He's been here since 2015. 

And by crop, I mean do indeed mean deleting the unnecessary text. 

And he is replying in my Blog.

Wait... 2015?! What kind of shenanigans are these??? I haven't seen one post by them before now.. Well how about that..

Yeah, these rules were created well after they've been around. My apologies, SH.. :X

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Just now, Malkior said:

Yeah, these rules were created well after they've been around. My apologies, SH.. :X

You have nothing to apologize for, friend.

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12 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

New person?  He's been here since 2015. 

And by crop, I mean do indeed mean deleting the unnecessary text. 

And he is replying in my Blog.

I was here in 2015, but things changed when I came back in 2021. Further, I used Instant Messenger a lot in 2015. Why do you seem to be trying to make me look bad?

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10 minutes ago, Neville said:

I was here in 2015, but things changed when I came back in 2021. Further, I used Instant Messenger a lot in 2015. Why do you seem to be trying to make me look bad?

I used the Instant Messenger a lot way back when, so I believe you.

However, Sith Holocron has a point about the sheer amount of topics you've created in the course of a few weeks which is basically why this particular thread exists. 

We all want to create the biggest mod we can, but something of the scale you're currently undertaking would best be documented in private messages (To avoid forum bloat) or in one dedicated topic (To also avoid forum bloat)

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On 6/17/2021 at 1:54 AM, Malkior said:

I used the Instant Messenger a lot way back when, so I believe you.

However, Sith Holocron has a point about the sheer amount of topics you've created in the course of a few weeks which is basically why this particular thread exists. 

We all want to create the biggest mod we can, but something of the scale you're currently undertaking would best be documented in private messages (To avoid forum bloat) or in one dedicated topic (To also avoid forum bloat)

People always seem to lose interest. Is it necessary to shame me for as long as this site is active?

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48 minutes ago, Neville said:

People always seem to lose interest. Is it necessary to shame me for as long as this site is active?

No shame intended. Just a clarification of the rules and even some potential solutions so you can avoid bloating the site.

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