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TSLforever

What was TSL's ending supposed to be like?

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I mean it is very weird. Dialogue on the Ravager seems to indicate that The Exile was not supposed to accompany Mandalore and Visas. How did Kreia and Handmaiden get back to Telos? How did HK and Bao-Dur go to the HK Factory without anyone noticing? And Malachor?!?! How did the Hawk get fixed? Why was the party separated?

Thoughts?

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7 hours ago, TSLforever said:

Dialogue on the Ravager seems to indicate that The Exile was not supposed to accompany Mandalore and Visas.

It certainly seems that way. On the other hand, there are parts where the Exile was clearly meant to be in control, such as the encounter with Tobin and Visas' cell. @bead-v, @InSidious, @VarsityPuppet, @zbyl2, and I have discussed it at length on Discord in the past and honestly I don't think anything any of us have come up with makes sense of it. We have various ideas on how to resolve the awkwardness but everything we've come up with is almost certainly not what the developers intended due to some other weird part that contradicts it.

7 hours ago, TSLforever said:

How did Kreia and Handmaiden get back to Telos? How did HK and Bao-Dur go to the HK Factory without anyone noticing?

How does Kreia get to Malachor? How do the Handmaidens get to Dantooine when the Exile is female? Who rebuilds the enclave in the dark side ending?

I have no answers.

I think we have to live with stuff happening off-screen for a lot of it for the sake of the pacing.

7 hours ago, TSLforever said:

And Malachor?!?! How did the Hawk get fixed? Why was the party separated?

Presumably T3 fixes the ship, and it seems that the party was all thrown out of the ship like how you get repeatedly thrown clear of shuttle crashes earlier.

I believe these issues were things that Malachor VI intended to address.

@VarsityPuppet@VarsityPuppet@VarsityPuppet hint hint

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10 hours ago, TSLforever said:

I mean it is very weird. Dialogue on the Ravager seems to indicate that The Exile was not supposed to accompany Mandalore and Visas. How did Kreia and Handmaiden get back to Telos? How did HK and Bao-Dur go to the HK Factory without anyone noticing? And Malachor?!?! How did the Hawk get fixed? Why was the party separated?

Thoughts?

The short answer is we'll never know because the game was unfinished.

It was supposed to be larger. MUCH larger. But LucasArts wanted the game released in time for Christmas, so the game's development was cut short by almost a year. The budget was cut, too. The reason is shortly before TSL came out, LucasArts was restructured and a lot of their game development was canceled. Even before the restructuring, BioWare saw trouble and passed on developing the sequel. They recommended Obsidian, who had worked with them in the past.

Unfortunately for Obsidian, plotting of TSL was started BEFORE KoTOR was finished and LucasArts refused to allow Obsidian access to the developing game. When KoTOR finally came out Obsidian had to go back and redo material that didn't fit with the original game's story. They had to start over, giving them even less time to write the story. This is the reason for so many plot holes and unfinished content, which is why modders have been working to restore whatever they could find.

KoTOR and TSL are examples of what happens when a company (LucasArts) has crappy management. A whole book was written about it, in fact.

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Thanks for the replies folks. It leads to further questions of course! 😉

I take it Lorna Vash was not supposed to be found dead? Korriban feels extremely short too. Then there is the Droid Planet (I haven't read too much about it or played the mod).

Also, why did Mandalore not want the Republic to suspect that they were on the Ravager? How did the Force Bond between Kreia and The Exile break? Did it break? Who blasted HK-47 to pieces and how did Droid Merchants get parts for him!!?? I am still not completely clear about the sequence of events that lead to Kreia being on the Hawk in the beginning of the game.

The game feels quite rushed after you finish Nar Shaada; the Restored Content mod actually makes this more apparent. I love the mod of course.

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6 minutes ago, TSLforever said:

I take it Lorna Vash was not supposed to be found dead? Korriban feels extremely short too. Then there is the Droid Planet (I haven't read too much about it or played the mod).

Given that she has different voice actresses in the trial and on M4-78, I am not certain that the one on Korriban was even meant to be Vash. There is an unused female Jedi head that was used for Kaevee in TSLRCM and TSLRP before it. Perhaps they were originally two different characters.

The Vash on M4-78 was also called Mara at some point.

8 minutes ago, TSLforever said:

Also, why did Mandalore not want the Republic to suspect that they were on the Ravager?

The only thing that makes sense to me here is that he was talking about the Ravager crew and using "Republic" generally to mean non-Mandalorian. They mention that the Ravager was a Republic ship later on in the conversation after all. Still, it's weird.

12 minutes ago, TSLforever said:

How did the Force Bond between Kreia and The Exile break? Did it break?

I remember having this conversation before, but I think it was on LucasForums. If you're talking about how killing Kreia doesn't kill the Exile,  as far as I see it, there are a few different ways you can interpret this. For one, we only have Kreia's word that the bond could be fatal. Everyone else you talk to about it says that bonds don't usually work that way. Kreia manipulates the Exile by letting them believe things she knows not to be true, e.g. the Council being responsible for cutting the Exile off from the Force, so perhaps you could simply add this to the list. Second, Kreia herself says that in battle they will be able to shield each other from the effects of the bond—which is evident since damage to Kreia doesn't translate to damage to the player in gameplay—so perhaps this was never a danger for a different reason. The Jedi also describe some ways in which a bond can be broken, such as if one person falls to the dark side, or their if their feelings about each other changed. Whether Kreia fell to the dark side is a whole other argument, but a possibility, and I think it's a much easier argument to make that the Exile's feelings about Kreia changed after her betrayal. So perhaps the bond broke one of those ways. Finally, in some cut content in the dark side version of the enclave meeting, and in the final duel, Kreia talks about making the Exile feel the Force again and overcome the weakness of relying on Force bonds. So perhaps confronting Kreia and not being able to draw on their bond cured them of their bond addiction.

To add to the confusion, Kreia has an alternate line in the enclave in which she says that she has severed their bond.

24 minutes ago, TSLforever said:

Who blasted HK-47 to pieces and how did Droid Merchants get parts for him!!??

I don't have any good answers for this. I got the impression that HK was dismantled so that he couldn't override the navicomputer voice lock, but then there's also talk that he was in the process of being rebuilt for some task.

26 minutes ago, TSLforever said:

I am still not completely clear about the sequence of events that lead to Kreia being on the Hawk in the beginning of the game.

Neither am I, since Kreia, the Peragus staff, and even the disembodied tutorial voice mention the Ebon Hawk having a crew that we never see.

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Wait a minute. The HK-50 from the Harbinger was locked in the same room on the Hawk as HK-47 yes?  That is weird too. How did he get locked in? By whom? T3?

The Hawk is under attack by a Sith warship right? The Harbinger detects this and moves to intercept, yes? Sion is on the Sith warship right? So Sion was looking for Kreia and not the Exile???!!??!?

2 hours ago, AmanoJyaku said:

Unfortunately for Obsidian, plotting of TSL was started BEFORE KoTOR was finished and LucasArts refused to allow Obsidian access to the developing game. When KoTOR finally came out Obsidian had to go back and redo material that didn't fit with the original game's story. They had to start over, giving them even less time to write the story. This is the reason for so many plot holes and unfinished content, which is why modders have been working to restore whatever they could find.

Wow. What a terrible decision by LucasArts.

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On 9/15/2020 at 7:20 AM, TSLforever said:

Wait a minute. The HK-50 from the Harbinger was locked in the same room on the Hawk as HK-47 yes?  That is weird too. How did he get locked in? By whom? T3?

The Hawk is under attack by a Sith warship right? The Harbinger detects this and moves to intercept, yes? Sion is on the Sith warship right? So Sion was looking for Kreia and not the Exile???!!??!?

The way I understand the chain of events, it happened as follows: The Ebon Hawk got attacked by a Sith Warship manned by Sion and his assassins, possibly because it carried Kreia (this is just speculation, though). The Harbinger with the Exile and the HK-50 on board detected it and moved to intercept. The Harbinger later tractored in the Hawk and searched the Warship, where they found Sion's 'corpse', but nothing else. However, the assassins decided to board the Harbinger, abandoning the Warship, where they started sabotaging stuff, probably in order to get to Kreia and eventually found out about the Exile.

However, at around the same time, either Kreia or the HK-50 (not entirely sure, haven't played the game in a while) incapacitated the Exile and moved him/her onto the Hawk in order to escape Sion and company. T3 was probably still on board and most likely was the one who locked the HK-50 in the cargo hold. After detaching, the Ebon Hawk attempted to escape the scene, and the Harbinger, now under control of Sion, opened fire, which led to the Hawk being damaged, and presumably Kreia being injured. T3 later managed to get the Hawk to Peragus, where the HK-50 got out of his compartment, at which point the main plot begins.

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Hmm. Carth and the Captain of the Harbinger have a conversation that seems to imply that Carth is aware of The Exile's presence on the ship. Atris had leaked word that The Exile had returned to Republic space, yes? So Sion, Carth, and Kreia were all looking for The Exile just prior to the game start.

Still; what was Kreia's plan? The Exile had been stripped of the Force (as had she, right?). How was The Exile supposed to stop the Sith Triumvirate in that condition?

Back to Malachor. What do the game files reveal of the sequence of events that was supposed to happen after The Battle of Telos?

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