"Porting" from K1 to TSL

[sELFiNDUCEDcOMA 98]

I know this was brought up recently enough -- just noticed it myself -- but I wanted to see what people's take on this was exactly; especially with LucasArts being acquired by Disney and this NOT being LucasForums .

 

I'm sure there is some "legal" issue here that people rightly or wrongly are stuck on, but, if you were to have a disclaimer as part of you mod, that the mod uses assets from K1 for a TSL mod, and, that you need to have both a legitimate copy of K1 and TSL in order to use the mod, well.. is there really an issue here if you make it clear that you don't support pirating and place the onus on the end user to take responsibility for their actions and that you (or the site) are not liable if you by chance happen to be using the mod without owning copies of both games..?

 

I'm pretty sure this is something that other sites do, where modders use assets from one game within another -- for example Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 3; especially when it comes to mods that uses assets from a DLC. 

 

Especially as I think that most of the fans of these games will likely have legitimate copies of both games -- I do for both along with for XBOX -- and if I'm not mistaken, there is a version of the game that was sold that had BOTH games on the same disc, perhaps even launched by the same loader. Which makes things a tad bit more "gray" than black and white.

 

[Darth Hayze 19]

This is something I've been curious about as well. As I've seen mods for Zoo Tycoon that port from Civilization(completely different publisher and dev), I've seen porting from Oblivion to Jedi Knight(and those even got uploaded to k-files and no one cared.)

 

I've taken part in a few different modding communities, but this is the only one( where I've been told NO PORTING, which always made no sense to me, as whatever clause is in the EULA saying don't do it is invalidated by us as soon as we start modding anyway.

 

Plus is EA/LA really gonna see a new mod and go "OH DEAR GOD, they used a K2 droid in K1, sue them all!"

[Vriff 21]

I've seen other mod teams from other games (such as the Elder Scrolls community) get around it by creating an installer to be directed to the installation of the other game and copying assets from it. Really the actual legality is the distribution of the games assets with the intention of using them in other games, mostly they don't want you recreating all of K1 inside of K2 so people don't buy K1.

Morroblivion were porting Morrowinds assets to the Oblivion version of Gamebyro, until Bethesda sent a C&D and explained it was because some of the textures had been contracted out, those they had to recreate but still used everything else through the way I mentioned above.

 

 

This is something I've been curious about as well. As I've seen mods for Zoo Tycoon that port from Civilization(completely different publisher and dev), I've seen porting from Oblivion to Jedi Knight(and those even got uploaded to k-files and no one cared.)

I've taken part in a few different modding communities, but this is the only one( where I've been told NO PORTING, which always made no sense to me, as whatever clause is in the EULA saying don't do it is invalidated by us as soon as we start modding anyway.

Plus is EA/LA really gonna see a new mod and go "OH DEAR GOD, they used a K2 droid in K1, sue them all!"

 

If we're going to be honest, EULAs don't hold up in court, especially when it also says not to create custom levels for this game, and not to edit assets when there is a company sponsored forum for just this.

 

Bottom line is that they're not going to spend the money to SUE someone over it, worst that could ever happen is that they would send a C&D to you and ask anyone hosting mod to take it down.

[InSidious 235]

Yes, well, the rule had a greater relevance when the games were newer. Suffice to say that when the games had only recently come out, the chances of LA suing/threatening to sue/issuing cease and desist letters to people, or attempting to stamp modding of the games out altogether, was rather higher. Particularly given the touchy atmosphere around copyright and the internet at the time. And I wouldn't want to base my defence in court on the idea that other companies allow the practice, so it's OK.

 

The ban, in short, was a simple way of ensuring maximum arse-coverage. Enforcing it, in and of itself, became a matter of erring on the side of caution.

 

To the question at hand: I'm against altering the situation, mainly because it would be inconsistent, and seems rather pointless given how tiny the modding scene is now. It also seems like an unncecessary risk, however small, to change this now.

 

Plus, even assuming you changed the policy here, that is no guarantee of changing the policy everywhere (e.g., Nexus, LF), and is more likely to cause confusion and partial boycotts, and all the usual internet drama.

 

Bottom line is that they're not going to spend the money to SUE someone over it, worst that could ever happen is that they would send a C&D to you and ask anyone hosting mod to take it down.

 

No, the worst that could happen by means of Cease and Desist letter would be that they sent out C&D letters demanding that all mod hosting sites stop doing so altogether, and then sending other C&Ds to anyone who has modded the games. If that seems unlikely... do you really want to bet on a large company seeing both sides of what they perceive as you infringing their copyright?

 

In any case, so far as I can see, EULA enforcability seems to depend on context in the US.  Other information was less easy to come across, and I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not in any rush to test it over here.

[Vriff 21]

 

No, the worst that could happen by means of Cease and Desist letter would be that they sent out C&D letters demanding that all mod hosting sites stop doing so altogether, and then sending other C&Ds to anyone who has modded the games. If that seems unlikely... do you really want to bet on a large company seeing both sides of what they perceive as you infringing their copyright?

 

Doomsday scenarios that wouldn't hold up for 500, alex.

 

The fact is that they have sponsored violations of the EULA by creating the Holowan Laboratories, I don't see anything holding up in court by trying to enforce it on one party while the company didn't follow it themselves.

 

but anyway, I still don't see anything wrong by use of an installer as I mentioned earlier, as it requires that the user have both games and we already know some around here already have small port mods in use themselves.

[ZM90 100]

I am going to go on record and say I would have absolutely zero problems with porting as long as a installer is used that requires the user to own both games.  In fact I thought of some really cool ideas like "What if K1 was remade with K2's engine?".  Although as a moderator I will still have to keep doing my job and stopping porting around here even if I don't agree with it personally, we all have to follow rules we do not agree with at times.  Anyway these are just my two cents to add to the discussion.

[Kainzorus Prime 203]

It's still the same engine. Aurora, used for Neverwinter Nights originally. But it would be neat to play through K1 with all of TSL's improvements.

[ZM90 100]

It's still the same engine. Aurora, used for Neverwinter Nights originally. But it would be neat to play through K1 with all of TSL's improvements.

 

That's what I mean by that but yeah it would be cool.

[Darth Hayze 19]

What ZM90 talked about has been done with Baldur's Gate 1&2, and I think is being done with Icewind Dale. But basically it requires both games to be on the hard drive already.

[Vriff 21]

What ZM90 talked about has been done with Baldur's Gate 1&2, and I think is being done with Icewind Dale. But basically it requires both games to be on the hard drive already.

and like I mentioned, been done for Morrowind in both Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

If I'm not mistaken there was also a similar project for Dark Forces -> Jedi Knight, not sure what happened to it though.

[defreili 10]

I only mentioned the porting in my previous post since I wanted to understand modules and reskinning modules.

[sELFiNDUCEDcOMA 98]

With other modding sites, there is a policy of: "if it ain't reported, then we don't delete mods from the site." I know from discussing it with moderators due to an issue I found with mod assets I was using that the "author" gave permission for me to use but who neglected to tell anyone that he wasn't the original author of those assets. They further stated that they don't actively go looking for mods to delete, they only deal with issues when they are reported. Which is probably different to Deadly Stream in that the number of new mods isn't as high -- which means that everyone one can be checked.

 

Another unspoken policy is in regards to game development studios and publishers: "if you don't ask us, then we don't have to tell you about our official policy on the matter." As with the Bestheda example, they don't want to discourage modding, rather, they've gone out of their way to encourage it for a reason. They know that it increases the longevity of their games as well as builds and cements their brand. This longevity also translates to continued sales of their titles many years after their release.

 

Anyway, I'm pro porting because TSL has models from KoTOR but with missing textures, and textures, that don't go with any models as the KoTOR ones are missing; these assets due to this are never used even if they work just fine. Further, they may have been made by different companies, but, they are the same franchise and share the same technology base. Certain assets are hard to recreate as the tools available aren't able to create them. Being able to re-purpose KoTOR assets means you get to add "new" content that isn't already found within TSL. And it's a bit odd to say "no" to such porting of assets from one title to another from the same franchise when I've seen mods listed on other prominent modding sites where there are assets used from one Star Wars franchise used in another -- like KoTOR within Jedi Knight. No one has called them out on it yet .

 

I also think porting all of KoTOR so that it works with TSL would be very cool for those with both the games and who want to play KoTOR on a better and less buggy engine for Win7 (or 8). I know that I like KoTOR, perhaps more so than TSL, however, I'm reluctant to mod for it as I see that TSL is a far better in way of game engine -- at has more potential.

 

Anyway, that's my reasoning.

[Kainzorus Prime 203]

There's also been a total conversion mod of Starcraft 1 and Brood War for Starcraft 2, including the sounds, music, and practically everything that could be carried over. Nobody complained.

[Darth Hayze 19]

 I know that I like KoTOR, perhaps more so than TSL, however, I'm reluctant to mod for it as I see that TSL is a far better in way of game engine -- at has more potential.

Yeah, going back and forth between the two script engines is terribly confusing because I'll get use to doing something with 1 function in TSL that needs 4 to do in K1. 

[Fair Strides 508]

Yeah, going back and forth between the two script engines is terribly confusing because I'll get use to doing something with 1 function in TSL that needs 4 to do in K1. 

Like? I've generally had no issues with the scripting between the two games.

 

What makes universal custom functions fun is adding an integer argument on the end that is 1 for Kotor and 2 for TSL, and running game code based off the that integer.

[Mandalore 61]

I'm with ZM90 om this - if it requires the user to have both games, then LucasArts can't be losing out, so would have no reason to punish other than as a display of power.

[Sith Holocron 2,452]

I have been reading this thread. I have my own opinions about this topic but I don't own the site, so my point of view isn't pertinent. I'll follow Tyvokka's lead on this no matter what he decides. .And yes, I've already sent him a PM pointing out this thread to him so hopefully we'll see a response on this soon.

[Kainzorus Prime 203]

I'm with ZM90 om this - if it requires the user to have both games, then LucasArts can't be losing out, so would have no reason to punish other than as a display of power.

LucasArts doesn't exist anymore. Disney shut them down some months ago.

[MrPhil 58]

So disney will be the one to get the profit from the games, then?

[Kainzorus Prime 203]

In tandem with EA, I suspect, as they bought rights to publish Star Wars games for Disney.

 

Ergo, "Welcome to the world of Day 1 DLC, microtransactions, Origin, and games designed for Call of Duty crowd, in your Star Wars. Enjoy, give us money and be happy you're giving us money, scum."

[L0ki194 82]

In tandem with EA, I suspect, as they bought rights to publish Star Wars games for Disney.

 

Ergo, "Welcome to the world of Day 1 DLC, microtransactions, Origin, and games designed for Call of Duty crowd, in your Star Wars. Enjoy, give us money and be happy you're giving us money, scum."

 

I reeeally hope EA doesn't do that. And if, IF, KOTOR 3 does happen, I don't want it riddled with different DLC sets.... just give me 1 or 2 good expansions that average a 6 hour runtime, and I'm good. I wouldn't want it to be "Cause **** you, give me more money: The Game"

 

Anyways, I agree with the idea of having an installer requiring you to have BOTH games installed for it to work.

[therevan789 7]

In tandem with EA, I suspect, as they bought rights to publish Star Wars games for Disney.

 

Ergo, "Welcome to the world of Day 1 DLC, microtransactions, Origin, and games designed for Call of Duty crowd, in your Star Wars. Enjoy, give us money and be happy you're giving us money, scum."

Maybe, just maybe, they end up letting Bioware make another game, and it may just be decent.

 

 

Edit: Welp, launcher idea was already taken xD

maybe even without the launcher, it could require a file from K1.

[ADG12311990 21]

LucasArts doesn't exist anymore. Disney shut them down some months ago.

Uh, LucasArts still exists, but only as a licensor. So, they still are involved in all SW games.

 

In tandem with EA, I suspect, as they bought rights to publish Star Wars games for Disney.

 

Ergo, "Welcome to the world of Day 1 DLC, microtransactions, Origin, and games designed for Call of Duty crowd, in your Star Wars. Enjoy, give us money and be happy you're giving us money, scum."

 

You mean Battlefront? I will never understand the hate over EA.

 

On Topic, I think the launcher requiring an install of both KotOR I and KotOR II would totally make sense. It might open up more choices for KotOR III fan mods.

[therevan789 7]

Uh, LucasArts still exists, but only as a licensor. So, they still are involved in all SW games.

 

 

You mean Battlefront? I will never understand the hate over EA.

 

On Topic, I think the launcher requiring an install of both KotOR I and KotOR II would totally make sense. It might open up more choices for KotOR III fan mods.

*coughs* Dead space 3, Mass effect 3's ending and day 1 DLC, Dragon age II, DRM issues, Simcity's issues*

Those are some of the reasons that people hate EA

[Sith Holocron 2,452]

EA hate is for another thread folks.