JCarter426 reminisces on the M4-78 EP that never came to be

[JCarter426 1,215]

Previously, on M4-78...

 

Discussion here led me - and Zbyl and others... I saw you guys messing about with the thread titles! - to start reminiscing about some ideas for M4-78 that did not make it into the mod.

 

One idea was the Sith survivor, as Zbyl mentioned, and another - am I allowed to discuss the others? Maybe we should do a post-mortem on M4-78. Well I'm going to discuss some of it now, anyway! Another one was about how the droids developed in isolation from their colonists for so long. In that undeveloped plot, the droids had divided into two factions - one that still followed their original programming to prepare the planet for the colonists, and another that didn't believe in the colonists anymore. There were a lot of ideas thrown around and would've had a more typical player choice for the planet, but like I said, it never developed into one cohesive story.

[zbyl2 811]

 

am I allowed to discuss the others? Maybe we should do a post-mortem on M4-78. Well I'm going to discuss some of it now, anyway!

 

It's been long enough that I think we should be able to freely discuss the mod's development and content we scrapped during it

[bead-v 251]

But regarding your other point, about not having a big choice to make... we had discussed a more involved plot but I don't think we ever came to a consensus over the details, so ultimately that didn't make it in. One idea was the Sith survivor, as Zbyl mentioned, and another - am I allowed to discuss the others? Maybe we should do a post-mortem on M4-78. Well I'm going to discuss some of it now, anyway! Another one was about how the droids developed in isolation from their colonists for so long. In that undeveloped plot, the droids had divided into two factions - one that still followed their original programming to prepare the planet for the colonists, and another that didn't believe in the colonists anymore. There were a lot of ideas thrown around and would've had a more typical player choice for the planet, but like I said, it never developed into one cohesive story.

 

Phhhh, this last one made me go wow! I wish that one had been developed, though I know what it's like when ideas just don't line up.

[Lawkmt3 17]

To be honest the idea that the world might have been stolen by Revan as a "prototype replacement" for the Star Forge, seems to be a reasonable idea to tie the game into both K1 and TSL. Since both K1 and TSL specifically state that Revan never intended to use the Star Forge to it's ultimate potential and never intended on keeping it active. Stealing M4-78 from the original "Colonists" to test the idea of hidden weapons factories would also line up with the HK storyline.  

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

All the remaining lines from the VO actor that performs CS-36 now have all been submitted.

[JCarter426 1,215]

It's been long enough that I think we should be able to freely discuss the mod's development and content we scrapped during it

I never did sign that non-disclosure agreement...

 

Unfortunately I think all our discussions went down with LucasForums, so even if we did want to do a thing we'd be relying on everybody's memories.

[zbyl2 811]

That's true, unfortunately, except for stuff that actually made it into some kind of design document or another. I actually still have quite a few of those, called storyline, storyline_old (written in '09! before TSLRCM was even a thing), storyline_ver_4_1... they could probably be mined for some interesting ideas we had back then. I think one of them might have another droid faction, similar to what you mentioned.

I've also got two different IZ.2_Draft_2_by_JC - but the Ind Zone ended up being pretty much what you described in it, IIRC.

 

And I've got this thing in M4-78 screenshots folder. Image dates back to 2010... anyone remembers what that was about? Because I don't.

 

[JCarter426 1,215]

Hah, I have no idea. That color looks good on him, though.

 

I still have my documents too, actually came across them again pretty recently, but it sounds like most of the same stuff. I know my idea for the power puzzle was even more complicated than what ended up in the mod, so I'm sure people would've LOVED that.

 

 

 

[zbyl2 811]

Huh, I don't remember that version of the puzzle. I've got a similar one though, which we scrapped for being too complex.

 

 

Sorry for the quality, that's the best I could get out of a word document.

 

I recall you being against even having a mandatory puzzle that late into the planet.

[JCarter426 1,215]

Yeah, I love puzzles but Obsidian made them all optional so I voted to go with the flow. But since the rest of the main quest at that point was just talking to people, it does make sense to have gameplay there to mix things up... even if dozens of YouTubers in my inbox disagree.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Yeah, I love puzzles but Obsidian made them all optional so I voted to go with the flow. But since the rest of the main quest at that point was just talking to people, it does make sense to have gameplay there to mix things up... even if dozens of YouTubers in my inbox disagree.

*cough* Nar Shaddaa T3 section *cough*

[Lawkmt3 17]

And this is why I think you're all remarkable to work so hard for nothing but satisfaction.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

On one hand, the behind the scenes stuff is gutting my documentary.

 

On the other, you guys weren't giving me any new information despite numerous requests.

 

You may as well make things easier for me and do a walk through at this point.

[JCarter426 1,215]

Well, I wasn't allowed to talk, as previously established.

 

But I thought you were still working through the original M4-78, before the Enhancement Project.

 

(Also, I did half a walkthrough already! I'm going to finish it, I promise...)

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

(Also, I did half a walkthrough already! I'm going to finish it, I promise...)

You might be able to help Xuul with that actually. . .

[JCarter426 1,215]

As long as I'm being gently coerced into reminiscing, I thought I should let you guys know that a buddy of mine is starting a KOTOR podcast series, and he's tasked me with bringing to him news from Deadly Stream. He's not as in touch with the modding community because he only played the games on Xbox back in the day. Jenko on the forums here is also editing the podcast with us. The first episode will be posted this weekend assuming we finish it on time - cue Sith Holocron's slogan - and one of the first news items is, of course, M4-78. Keep in mind that it's news FROM Deadly Stream so if you're already here well you probably know it already but stay tuned and we might have some more interesting bits for you.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

I tell you what would be great to have for my video series . . . people audibly reminiscing about doing voiceover work for M4-78.

[zbyl2 811]

I was looking through our old design doc trying to find some interesting random tidbits I could share. I was going to make a post about a Sith Survivor, but I found something in a document from early 2009 that even I barely remembered... at some point, before I even properly joined a team, we were planning to have some Selkath/Manaan connections on a planet. I left a small reference to that in the "Interstellar Transport" side quest, but it used to be much bigger than that.

 

Following are unedited quotes from said design docs. I'm honestly not sure who wrote it (might have been Sharen Thrawn, or Stoney, as I believe it was mostly the two of them writing first version of the plot for EP).

 

Landing Arm:

 

You can also ask LS-44 why does the Landing Arm is in such a mess state (with the docking claws broken, visible sings of some kind of explosion etc). He explains that soon before the radiation leaked into the Industrial and Central Zone, a small freighter with medical supply, that was being provided weekly to the colony by an outside contractor, got stuck in the docking claws right after landing. LS-44 continues by saying that crew of the ship as well as M4-78 droids were trying to fix the Landing Arm’s systems and free the freighter, but it proved to be impossible because of the freighter’s heavy weight, caused mainly by high amount of cargo stored. The freighter’s crew got an order to move the whole cargo out of the vessel to reduce the weight. LS-44 says that it helped making progress on getting the ship out of the claws but shortly after that, a series of incidents that occurred in the colony made the crew of the freighter take more drastic methods. When the radiation leaked into the colony, the freighter’s crew panicked as they thought they were under attack. They decided to flee from the planet as soon as possible, thus they had to blew up the docking claws to free their freighter as there was no time to try to free it using conventional methods. They made out as it seems.

 

Later on, and this is kinda linked to the "Sith Survivor" as you needed to get Kolto to cure him:

 

You have to get the kolto from contractor yourself. You go to speak with the droid representative of his who is watching the medical cargo in the Storage Room ( In-7). The droid says that his supervisor refused to sell additional kolto to the Sith’s droid. You order him to contact you with the Selkath anyway. A hologram of a Selkath appears. The Selkath says that he will not be making anymore deals with the Sith or their droids. You can ask him why doesn’t he want to make a deal with the droids/Sith. Selkath explains that:

Revan was LS:

After the Jedi Civil War, Manaan ended all business relationships with the Sith, as it proved to be a bad deal for them overall.

Revan was DS:

After the Sith Civil War on Korriban, the Sith themselves ended business relationships with Manaan and never showed any interest in purchasing the kolto from the Selkath again.

 

Selkath contractor says that he was always against the idea of making deals with the Sith and many other ideas the Manaan government was forcing, which was the reason he decided to distribute the kolto independently. He was contacted by the droids to make a deal and supply kolto to M4-78. He didn’t even know about the planet’s existence. The droids introduced themselves as representatives of the planet’s Colonists, he wasn’t aware that the Colonists were the Sith. Apart from regular shipments, the droids demanded only that he will not tell about the deal to anyone and/or reveal the location of the planet and that the shipments will be delivered to M4-78 by droids only. Selkath was a bit suspicious about this whole thing, but the droids said that their Colonists offer a double payment. Selkath contractor couldn’t decline to such offer as it was hard for a small, independent supplier to obtain the kolto and especially the clients. He says that his freighters and the crew were always waited on by the droids only on M4-78. It wasn’t until the shipment of kolto before the last one that one of his droid crew members actually spotted a officer on the planet and informed his supervisor about that. Selkath contractor was terrified, but couldn’t break the deal knowing who he was actually dealing with thus he sent another shipment of kolto but this time things went wrong. The freighter got stuck on the Landing Pad and when the radiation leaked and he ordered his droid crew to escape from the planet, his ship was shoot down. One of his droid representatives (which he deputized to watch for cargo in the Industrial Zone for the time the rest of the crew was trying to free the freighter that was carrying the last shipment and got stuck in the docking claws) informed him then that all the Sith (save one) has been killed in the radiation leak in the colony. If he won’t sell the droids additional kolto, the very last Sith will die eventually too which would make the droids end the deal with him soon after that (as they don’t need kolto themselves). This way, he won’t have to pay a ridiculous high penalty for breaking the contract prematurely. Thus, he will just wait and as he says, the problem will fix itself. But you can’t wait for one knows how long for the last Sith’s death, especially since the droids will do everything to sustain his life as long as they can.

 

You have couple of options of persuading the Selkath contractor to sell the kolto so you can save the Sith. You ask if the Selkath contractor will agree to sell the kolto to the droids in exchange for breaking his contract with them immediately (thus ending his business with the Sith without having to wait till the last of them dies). He agrees on that. You have to speak with the command droid ( In-6) again and explain him that in exchange for a kolto, the Selkath contractor demands ending the contract between him and the Sith. The command droid says that only the droid unit that actually made/signed the actual contract could break it. He explains that the contract was made by one of the medical droids in the Medical Unit ( In-1). He advises you to speak with them. You head to the medical droids. When you explain the situation to the droid that made the contract, he explains that the droids would have to pay a ridiculous sanction for breaking the contract prematurely just as the Selkath would have as he explained it already earlier on.

Neutral option:

You can agree on financing the termination of the contract.

 

Other options:

You can ask “ In-1” to have a look at the contract and it’s terms and conditions.

The Terms and Conditions that are interesting for you are:

“ In case the contractor’s license expires, the contract can be terminated without having the client pay a penalty for doing it.”

 

You have to ask the Selkath contractor about his license. He will refuse to tell you anything about it. But his droid will provide you all the information he possesses. It appears that the Selkath contractor’s license on exporting kolto has recently expired and due to long bureaucracy procedures on Manaan, he still hasn’t obtained a new one which.

LS option:

You tell the “ In-1” droid about it and say that he can now end the contract without any consequences. When the Selkath contractor hears about it, he begs you to now inform the Manaan government about it. He says that he knows he shouldn’t operate in the time he awaits for his license renewal, but in those hard times and because of the family he has he couldn’t afford to sustain his operations. You assure him that you would never do such thing and refuse to accept a discount on Selkath cargo.

 

DS option:

You blackmail the Selkath contractor to inform the Manaan government that he operates without a valid license. The Selkath contractor will agree to break the contract himself, give the kolto to the droids for free and additionally provide you a discount for the rest of his cargo just so you don’t ruin him.

 

After the contract is broken, you can choose a class of kolto to buy from the contractor. Selkath explains that there are containers of high-class kolto but also a couple of cheap containers of a much less effective low-class kolto, often obtained by the miners who can’t afford the higher-class one. The decision is yours.

LS option:

You choose the high-class kolto that will restore the Sith survivor to a perfect condition.

 

DS option:

You chose the low-class kolto which although will curse the Sith survivor, many scars and wounds will remain..

 

It doesn't explain how we suddenly got kolto on M4-78 though. Still would be kinda neat to have a cameo from a Selkath.

 

Tidbit from the Environmental Zone description:

There is a wreck of the Selkath freighter (the one that got stuck in the docking claws on the Landing Arm) in the 3rd Recharge Station (we will need a new model for it but I think it wouldn’t be much of a problem?). Bodies of the droid crew of the freighter that fell out when the ship crashed are scattered all over the 3rd Recharge Station area and the Outer Defense Region.

 

More non-combat hacking options on that zone, linked to said ship:

3. Outer Defense Region – to deal with the four turrets and heavy combat droids, you have to access the Selkath freighter computer and blow up the bodies of the droids that are scattered in the Outer Defense room. This will destroy the droids and the turrets.

 

Additional explanation for how Vash and Kaah got to the planet, which kinda contradicts the holo-recording we set up on Korriban.

 

... how they found out about the Sith here in the first place. ES-05 says that Vash and Kaah told her that they were trying to discover the location of the Sith main bases. In order to do so, Kaah was monitoring all the kolto suppliers on Manaan, as it was the only source of kolto in the galaxy and it was logical to them that the Sith would need to get it from there too, just like they used to due in the times of the Jedi Civil War. Kaah finally managed to find a Sith trace that leaded to M4-78 while spying on a small independent supplier. When they decided to come to the planet, they sneaked into a small freighter of that Selkath supplier on Manaan, hidden inside the kolto containers and get into the colony when the freighter docked in the M4-78’s Landing Arm. They damaged the docking claws to get the freighter stuck in the Landing Arm so they could have a ship to escape from the planet. Then, they managed to deactivate the Guardian Droid in the Central Zone and sneak into the Environmental Zone where no Sith were present. Finally they found ES-05. They were sure the Sith were pretending to be the planet’s Colonists and wanted ES-05’s help in getting rid of them. She agreed to help them if they were able to prove that the Sith were indeed lying. After they did, ES-05 agreed to help them by allowing Kaah to use her systems to spike into the security systems (something she wasn’t allowed to do) and release cause the radiation to leak into the colony.

 

[...]

 

Also, you can ask about the wreck of the Selkath freighter you saw in the Environmental Zone. ES-05 explains that when the Selkath freighter took off from the Landing Arm, Kaah assumed those were the Sith who tried to escape from the planet and fired at them. The crew tried to fight back by bombarding the Environmental Zone (hence the holes visible in the Zone) but Kaah managed to shoot the ship down. It crashed in the Environmental Zone. When ES-05 checked the security cameras, it turned out that those were only the droids of the Selkath contractor from Manaan.

 

Apparently there was another step before we could reactivate and talk to L5-65. I don't think anyone is going to be sad about it being cut out:

When you ask her how you can set up an independent connection between her and L5-65, she explains that the computer on the Selkath freighter may still be working. If it is, a slave circuit could be installed on it allowing ES-05 to control it and use it’s communication systems. ES-05 gives you a slave circuit to install. You head back to the Environmental Zone and attach the slave circuit to the ship’s computer. You can do it now, or after you reactivate L5-65.

 

 

That's it for Selkath/Manaan references. There's a lot more interesting stuff in those docs, some if it good, some of it really bad, but it's interesting to read after all these years and look at various ideas we've had over the course of the development. I wish we could access the lucasforums and see the discussions we had on that group.

 

I'll post more random tidbits like that if people are interested.

 

[Domino5555 119]

Do it! Just do it!

[Malkior 476]

First, I have to say your group did a wonderful job of explaining the events on the planet. With the addition of the Selkath connection, there is more context to the chaos that took place shortly before you arrive.

 

Additionally, we get some perspective from the droids regarding their seemingly rash decision to flood the Environmental zone with radiation and kill everything organic. (I never understood the point of why the planet looked war-torn when all the droids were doing regarded building a large army)

 

The Selkath connection also explains what the Selkath did after the events of Kotor, and further connects the two games (Kotor 2 mentions nothing about Manaan in the entire game, yet it has connections to Kasshyyk, Korriban, and Dantooine; with the latter two as playable levels)

 

//I guess Tatooine is also completely missing from TSL, but maybe it could be added by some other mod to the list of suppliers for the Rodian merchant NarShadaa or as some sort of specialty items that connect them. //

[JCarter426 1,215]

I remember we talked about a Selkath connection because all the assets were still there, and the kolto area was part of the mod from very early on, but I either didn't know about or didn't recall all the specifics. Interesting stuff.

 

I have more I could reveal from my end but I may be saving it for something else.

[zbyl2 811]

It's from the oldest design doc I could find for the planet. Very next one has this instead

 

[CHANGES]Selkath related material was here previously and has been removed.[/CHANGES]

 

so it's very likely you don't remember it or never even read that one.

[InSidious 237]

I have one of Sharen Thrawn's design docs for M478 from August 2008, if that's of interest. It's labelled as version 2.1. There don't appear to be any Selkath, and, despite a note about how I was going to format my comments, I don't appear to have commented on it.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

Send it to me, InSidious?

[Hassat Hunter 571]

"Still would be kinda neat to have a cameo from a Selkath."

 

I hate you... :/