Markus Ramikin

I pretty much like some sort of humor in everything I do

I hope you don't make your living as a cook

Looks good to me. Don't forget the 1.7 Fix by Hassat.

And that is just beginning.

Well, I don't know how well received it'll be if you spam this forum with many topics. The first two responses to your 003 thread might be a hint.

 

I'm merely a forum member like yourself, so I can't tell you what to do, but I think you should keep in mind that

1. The owners here are a mod team, they are not Obsidian Entertainment

2. The mod has a limited scope. As far as I can tell, it's mostly limited to restoration of cut content. (+ some uncontroversial bugfixes). Its purpose isn't to change every little aspect of the game that might need looking at, especially if it'd require creating new content.

Hm, who IS that other (besides Kreia) corpse in the morgue? Maybe it's Kreia's pilot

Thanks, Zbyl

Besides, it's not any longer than the BIK movie.

True. But the bik movie I could (and did) skip. Often a player, especially having played through the game before, just wants to click through dialogues they remember (or don't like). Not being able to do so for reasons other than technical (such as the necessity to allow an animation to play out) is... well, a little annoying.

Yes, but who's to say if it's making the game better or worse? Isn't that relative to the player who's playing it?

Yes, of course, it's a matter of opinion. And obviously the opinions of modmakers will decide, with, at most, the small possibility that player feedback (such as what I try to provide) changes your minds.

 

In the paragraph you quoted, my intention was to defend the criterion, "is the game better or worse now", "does this make more or less sense than before". To see it taken into account at all, because subjective or not, it matters.

 

And if it is taken into account, then I have provided arguments why I think the change to Slusk's terminal affects that part of the game (the plot making sense, the result being psychologically satisfying to the player) in a bad way. These arguments (mostly in the initial post, but also some of the replies) may or may not be convincing, of course. I was merely hoping to see them actually considered.

 

I hope at least I was able to explain where I was coming from.

 

Take for instance, T3's lines.

 

I thought they were excellent and add some much needed humor to the prologue. Yes, they are not in T3's usual diction, but it's just the prologue. You don't usually have a woman computer voice telling you what to do every second of the game either, or characters telling you to press TAB to switch between characters.

 

My point is if the prologue serves to be an introduction to acquaint you with the world of Kotor II by using examples of in-game scenarios, I personally can excuse all of the instances of breaking the third wall. Add to that that the prologue is played through the perspective of T3-M4, I think I can live with T3-M4 speaking something I can understand so I don't have to keep looking up words in my Beep-to-English dictionary.

 

*nod* I see what you're saying. And yes, we seem to receive this very differently - for instance I don't think humor was "much needed" in the prologue. I liked it serious, the atmosphere of wreckage and near-total disaster and trying to save the ship and passenger(s). Despite the woman's voice and the tips, I found it strong enough to feel that this is happening "for real" (in the same sense as the rest of the game), which is perhaps the only reason the prologue was at all interesting to me. But that's my opinion, of course.

 

Still, I think that at least there's a strong argument to be found in noticing that it makes T3 act out of character. Fourth wall is one thing, OOC behaviour another - if game characters are used in tutorials, they are generally not made to be different from what they will later be like in the rest of the game. Morte in PS:T comes to mind, while he guides you in finding a weapon, killing your first zombie, and taking your first steps towards escaping your predicament, he's still the same sarcastic, somewhat cowardly guy. Er, skull.

I have to admit, as awful a human being as it makes me, that if it comes out as bad as that sounds, I'm going to experience some serious Shadenfreude...

You're even a worse nitpick than I am.

That's actually an interesting observation. However, since that's the recorded line of voice acting and it can't be redone, I don't know what could be done about it.

So what's your proposal, ttlan?

 

I don't really have a problem with this. There's obviously some way that kolto tanks can be opened, after all people do enter them to heal and exit them when healing is done. It just wasn't shown for lack of animations or whatever.

 

While I'm not one of the authors, let me say I don't think it's the scope of this mod to make everything "perfect" as we can imagine it. There's room for tweaks and fixes but only cautious ones that don't alter the game too much.

VP: Thanks for the constructive response.

 

Your suggestion of decreasing the frequency - hm, I don't know what's possible in the technical sense, you'd know better. ATM he's simply wired to say it every time you cross the range, right?

 

Is it necessary at all? NPCs talking without clicking on them is a rarity, and HK-50 says that line anyway if you start a conversation with him, so if you approach him for that purpose, you're going to hear it twice.

 

Or maybe he should be made to say it once per entering the module. So if you go up to talk to Atton and pick up the sonic sensor data from the holos, and return, he'll say it because he hasn't seen you for a bit.

 

Just throwing ideas around.

 

 

 

 

Hassat: the T3 dialogue thing, about which you and I are of the same mind, is a good example of what I'm talking about: restoring content does not always mean good things. If you think everything that's restorable should be restored, why were you objecting to the T3 thing?

 

It's about using judgement like that. It's about restoring things for the sake of making the game better - and refraining when it does not. Rather than blindly restoring for the sake of restoring. I mean, I'm assuming that's what you guys want to do.

 

And if so, simple extrapolating from the state of the files as it happened to be at the time the deadline was reached will not always yield best results. Now if you happen to think the change makes the game better or at least not worse, sure, that's a valid point of view and we can agree to disagre. But the condescending tone and silly treatment of my arguments are not necessary. If my Exile can intimidate a crime boss (yes, it's intimidation, the only thing necessary to make it work is to choose the dialogue lines that let Slusk save some face) enough to stop an important operation (the Ithorians are "ruining his profits", after all) but not to free a single unimportant prisoner, that's not my Exile being a sissy, that's the game being stupid.

 

I already offered that and got a no, so no idea what the hell he wants...

What I'd "want" would be a revert to the vanilla state. Even if it's not going to happen, at least I tried to give my thoughts as best I could.

And they all lived happily ever after.

You haven't played Ulic's mod ever, right?

If it's the one I'm thinking of, then I did once. It gave me the T3-is-missing bug and I ditched it.

 

this was OE's intention, not what scorchy said

'cause it's not possible OE saw what they did and decided 'hey this actually looks good, let's leave it like this'

 

It's the same in vanilla, only this line lacked VO so you wouldn't notice it.

Now that I think of it, I remember noticing the text over his head. Funny, I thought it was intended.

 

Anyway, it sounds awful now, whenever you enter his range twice in a row or more.

 

What are you talking about?

Mebla used to give the card after two wins in a row and a third game (won or lost), calling it "three in a row". That was the bug. This time she didn't do it if I lost the third game, I actually had to win three in a row. So I assumed you fixed that part. If that's not the case, I don't know what went on.

 

It was never dropped. How many times do I have to mention they typo'd the requirement?

Yes, I know that. But you can't simply assume every bit of unfinished content was necessarily going to be included in the final version of the game if they had the time, especially in the shape it -seems- to be taking in its unfinished version. Yet that's what you seem to be doing, and you seem bent on restoring everything that looks remotely restorable whether it's a good idea or not. Now I know I'm only speculating, but more importantly I'm talking from the point of view of story making sense and the game being enjoyable.

 

And from that point of view, the vanilla state of that part of the game was better, and you made it worse. That's all.

 

What?

Okay, nvm, can't be bothered reposting the last thread.

 

Eh, Jorran got the same.

Nope, Jorran got fixed, his recruitment dialogue disappears. Which is why I figured to bring it up, if someone found it worthwhile to fix it for one, might as well mention the other.

Looks good atm.

So what's going on?

 

Hm... installing 1.7 over 1.6, are people supposed to actually do that? I always make a clean install to be safe, so I don't know.

At this point I'm going to take a longish break, so posting what I have so far.

Areas: DANTOOINE

 

 

1. Militia dialogue (fix proposal submitted)

 

Seems the issue I pointed out in 1.6 was fixed. Good work (So why did you tell me I was wrong about it, Hassat?)

 

EDIT: hm, partly. You've fixed the militiaman outside, but the one next to the Administrator still has the "don't cause any more trouble" line among his responses, even when you don't have a lightsaber. Not a very big deal, any more than the original issue, but in case it's an oversight I'm just letting you know.

 

 

2. HK-50s still have the -30 mod (fix proposal submitted)

 

As before: The 3 HK-50s that show up in front of the Jedi Enclave when you first go there have a -30 mod to saves, which as I remember being said before, wasn't intended.

 

 

3. Suulru quest

 

As before: at the end of it, Suulru still doesn't have his modulator, which he needs to farm, and which was the reason he asked you to help. At that point I don't even know why he's rewarding me. This strikes me as a plot hole, and probably fixable without having to invent content. Perhaps with the "item gained" "item lost" functions.

 

I feel particularly justified in bringing it up because this isn't a simple restoration, but a change; you've actually removed some content to make room for this (the dialogues relevant to Jorran, and the modulator item itself). And that IMO is only justifiable if the end result makes more sense than the vanilla state of things.

 

 

 

4. Disciple, again.

 

It's been about 3-4 versions and I still have no idea why it's necessary to move him to Khoonda from the ruins if you haven't freed him from the laigreks yourself. Could someone please explain why it works like this?

 

 

 

5. Saedhe model

 

Ceterum censeo... yeah. Old black guy was better.

 

 

6. Battle of Khoonda: -20 mod to saves (fix proposal submitted)

 

As usual, I took the Settler side. Just like 1.6, the Mercenaries had a -20 mod to saves, making disabling them with Horror ridiculously easy.

 

This was even without me doing an uplifting speech, in case that was supposed to have anything to do with it.

 

 

 

7. Battle of Khoonda: small discrepancy with the models

 

The mercs that run across the bridge in your replacement of the movie are all wearing some sort of blinders/masks. Then when the game switches to actual combat, they're not.

 

EDIT: If you are using the blinders/masks, consider also adding them to the models while Azkul speaks of his battle plan. There are 3 merc guys in much closer view and they very obviously have all the same face.

 

 

 

8. Pato Ado (fix proposal submitted, keeping entry for the record)

 

You made the offer to join the militia appear in his dialogue even if he's been cleaned out in Pazaak, good work.

 

However, it doesn't disappear after the battle like for the other recruits. Not a big deal, but it would make sense to remove it.

Areas: TELOS

 

 

1. Mebla, the Telos Pazaak player (edit: fix submitted)

 

Buggy condition of giving the reward.

 

 

2. Gamorreans that you use to deal with Doton Het (fix proposal submitted)

 

This is very minor and I mentioned it before, but I include such unaddressed things for completeness.

 

If possible and not too hard to do, these two should disappear once you leave the module (though not immediately). Otherwise they stand there forever, saying their "don't worry about the mess" line - even to B4-D4, which doesn't make sense.

 

 

3. Caged flatworm

 

I repeat and maintain that removing the possibility to help the caged Ithorian (if Slusk is left alive) is a bad idea, and psychologically unsatisfactory to the player. Yes, the line on the terminal makes sense - but only in the most limited way possible. If look at the bigger picture, the whole thing makes less sense now than in vanilla.

 

For one: I can loot Slusk's footlocker, likewise his two plasteel containers, I can run around his place like I own it. Only the terminal has an added dose of realism in that I can't access it with Slusk standing there. Benefit to suspension of disbelief: zero.

 

For two: it's implausible that the Exile, being Lightside, working for the Ithorians, and possibly having promised the caged flatworm to free him, would just forget about this.

 

This change would only work well if, at the same time, content existed for freeing the Ithorian in another way. Either by disabling the force cage manually, or talking to Slusk about it.

 

Since that content does not exist, your change overeall alters the story in an unfavorable way. If the only point of this was to restore a line of text on the terminal, well... that's restoring for the sake of restoring? which can sometimes make the game worse, not better.

 

Now that I think of it, I'm sure the only reason that line existed in the files at all is that Obsidian must have initially imagined you being able to run around that place freely before the Slusk plotline was resolved. Then, when they changed it so cutscenes and combat take over immediately, it was dropped.

 

 

4. HK-50s on the Polar Mesa

 

As before: they speak of mines and self-destruct sequences, but neither are there.

 

 

5. Party health in Polar Academy/Ebon Hawk

 

I know in 1.6 you tried to give Bao-Dur a heal there, like I suggested, so he wouldn't stay wounded during the Ebon Hawk scenes and the whole trip to the next planet. You only succeeded partially. He would get a heal if told to come with you, but not if you send him directly to the ship.

 

Now in 1.7 this seems completely disabled again. Bao Dur fails to get a heal no matter what. Don't know whether you intended that.

 

IMO the whole party should get a heal there.

 

 

 

6. Battle music not turning off

 

I've found battle music wouldn't turn off at times. For example, after I killed the turrets behind the minefield in Restoration Zone. Another instance was after sparring the 5 Handmaiden Sisters in the polar academy.

 

Maybe it's a known bug I never noticed before. However, I'm mentioning it just in case it's a sideeffect of this:

* Battle music will keep playing after escaping Peragus until you jump into hyperspace

Areas: PRE-TELOS

 

 

 

1. T3 has actual dialogue (Prologue)

 

Why? Is this a restoration or did you invent it? If it's an invention, it's really a bad idea. If it's a restoration, I still don't think it's a great idea, for the following reasons:

 

T3, as a character, was a success precisely because of how much personality he shows without ever saying an intelligible word. He's a bit mysterious that way, possibly knows more of the backstory than HK-47 and in some ways even Kreia, but hardly reveals anything. This addition, while in itself most trivial, alters all that.

 

Also, some of the dialogue options are rather silly, sounds more like Remote, not T3. This alters the atmosphere of the game's beginning. It used to be more serious.

 

 

 

2. Meeting HK-50 for the first time (Peragus)

 

Looks like you added an explicit shot of HK walking in. Did you end up deciding that the fact that you couldn't see HK-50 from the start was unintended? You may be wrong there.

 

To quote Scorchy:

http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%203/index.html

So all along the level, you're led to believe the guy had something to do with the murders. Then you get here and the camera pans around to his face, and you find he's already dead. It's another horror/suspense movie trick. [...]

 

"Greetings; it is a pleasure to see you alive, master..."

 

Another interesting choice here. To maintain the creepiness, you don't even see who's talking at first.

 

The NPC literally isn’t in the room when you enter; he spawns in behind the player as the player's bending over the body. It's the equivalent of tapping someone on the shoulder and making them jump.

I agree with that, the camerawork here was surely very deliberate. So please reconsider this, don't fix what ain't broke.

 

 

 

3. "Greetings, it is a pleasure to see you intact, Master."

 

Holy spam. He said that line something like 8 times in a row. It had something to do with my moving around while fighting droids, and thus re-entering his range I guess. He'd also do that every time I ran by while exploring the two rooms.

 

Sounds awful, like a broken record and not an intelligent droid. What was it like in vanilla, anyway? He used to say it just once, if I remember?

 

That line is already his actual greeting when you click on him to talk. That's perfectly sufficient.

 

 

4. * Fixes long pause before Sien gets taken down by Coorta.

 

This always bothered me, though I never thought to mention it. Good work.

Area: GLOBAL, EBON HAWK

 

 

1. Visas-Nihilus scene

 

Yes, it's better than the bik movie, but why is every bit of the dialogue unskippable? Please change that.

 

By now, having to listen to Nihilus' ruined throat and being unable to skip it results in http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm for me .

 

 

2. Bao-Dur's Jedi training

 

Thank you for modifying the meditation part. That's exactly what I had in mind, and it's definitely better now.

 

The defense-against-remote part still looks like it did, but I'm starting to think it's one of those things that can't be fixed. It's probably the same problem as when sometimes, during normal (non-cutscene) combat, your character will just stand there during the enemy's combat round, rather than do a defensive animation.

 

 

 

3. Kreia's lesson of skills: condition

 

As before: dialogue and condition don't match. Dialogue says to improve your weakest skill, but if you do only that the lesson will not continue. Please fix the condition.

 

 

 

4. Kreia's lesson of skills: reward

 

As before: game message and reward don't match. Game message says both skills get improved, actual reward is only for the weakest skill. One way or another, they should be made to match.

 

This is a report built during a playthrough of 1.7, including TSLRCM 1.7 Fix by Hassat Hunter.

 

Other mods used:

 

- Aurora's Rebalance

- Improved AI

- My own minor tweaks of NPC stats.

- Workbench Crystal Attunement

 

As before:

 

Male lightside Jedi Consular/Jedi Master.

Highest difficulty.

 

 

As always, there's a lot of goodness in this mod and there's no point in listing it all, so I'll mostly focus on the criticisms. Don't let this make you think I don't like the mod. Like I said before, "if I'm mean to you, it's because I care".

In the Green style, links inside posts are practically invisible.

 

Same for the navigation thingie on top, the one that lists:

* Forum * General * Site Feedback * Unreadable !

 

There's a lot of white on white or white on bright parts, too.

What is "WCA"?

This:

http://www.deadlystream.com/forum/downloads.php?do=file&id=7

Compatible!

Calm down?

 

This is most likely a bug in your installation, not something in TLSRCM. I have the mod and I do not have your problem. Do you have other mods installed? Or are you sure you installed TSLRCM correctly?

What? That scene is still there. I just checked and made sure. You get the plasma torch from the corpse, then Kreia reaches to her hood, gets up, pulls the hood on. Just like in the unmodded game.

 

Unless it's problem with the French version.