Markus Ramikin

Say, now that I think about it, where the hell did Visquis put Mira, anyway, after that off-screen recapture? My player-controlled Exile tears the base apart and yet can't find her anywhere, but Atton shows up, and, voila, there's Mira?

*in Plinkett's voice* "That don't make sense..."

And what does she mean by "you may have defeated Visquis, but [...] Goto has your friend"? At this point Visquis isn't defeated yet.

And yet you can't move this dialogue to after Visquis' death, because in the same dialogue she says "You've got Visquis's attention".

I confused.

Yup, I tested. But yeah, since KGFF isn't buggy that way, seems best to use that.

After the Red Eclypse attack, the game locks your party in so you can't dismiss them. This is 1. buggy and 2. inconvenient.

I imagine it was added for the sake of logic, so that you couldn't summon NPCs who were just seen knocked out. Well, that doesn't work right. If I trigger the scene with 0 or 1 companion, then I can get Handmaiden or Kreia to join just fine - even though they were just shown knocked out. Atton's the only one I can't get to join for some reason.

So the end result is not a restriction that makes sense, just a random inconvenience. I suppose it can be fixed, but I'd rather see it gone completely. It means while preparing to repel that attack you can't move equipment around between party members, or summon your crafters to make new etc. Just not worth it.

I'll confess one of my favourite things I like to do in a playthrough is, after I've been to the refugee area, to Jedify Atton, go to the workbench in the sullustan's workshop, switch through my crafter companions to fit Atton's lightsabers with the best upgrades I can make, and then have Atton use his newfound powers and weapons to clear out the Red Eclypse from my ship. This new change puts a stop to this little tradition of mine (except if I abuse my knowledge of the script's bugginess). But that's me. I imagine I'm not the only one who finds this inconvenient, even if not for such specific reasons.

In case anyone still cares, I've investigated this at length. First of all, Dan's advice above is for Kotor 1 items. Remember how in K1, weapons and armors only had 1 possible upgrade per slot, and what that upgrade did exactly depended on the weapon or armor itself? Yeah. That's what those "Upgrade required to activate" properties were for.

In Kotor 2, upgradeability is governed by the UpgradeLevel field. Here's a list of UpgradeLevel values, taken from

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Mandalorian16965/ar/t51.htm

Robes (Knight & Master)    1
Armored Robes (Zal Shey) 2
Light Armors            2
Medium Armors        3
Heavy Armors         4
Regular  (Non-Powered)   1
Vibro Weapons (Powered) 2
Lightsabers  (All Types)      3
Blasters (Scope Only)             1
Blasters (Scope,Chamber)        2
Blasters (All Upgrades)             3

So, in order to change upgradeability, you have to open the relevant .uti file and change the UpgradeLevel value.

The tricky thing is that Kotor Tool's display of .uti files is buggy, and it won't show you the UpgradeLevel correctly, or allow you to change it. Use KGFF instead.

(BTW, when using KGFF, after changing a value in the edit boxes on the right side, be sure to then click on the left side of the window, so that you see the value listed there update. Took me forever to figure out why the hell my changes weren't being saved!).

For armors you can still use Kotor Tool, because it (faultily) displays UpgradeLevel in the Body Variation box, so if you change the Body Variation value, you're actually changing the upgrade level! For weapons, you have no choice but to use KGFF.

This conversation between Markus and HH might be better suited to a PM. What do you two say?

Yeah, I suppose it's best if we don't hijack the thread. But just sayin', if one starts a topic like this, one might actually get an answer that takes one up on it.

But okay, bowing out.

Dude, I'm trying to be civil to you, but try to reply to what I actually said, not to what you can possibly twist my words into.

"yet; she couldn't possible have asked that of Atris because... you say so"

Never said that. I said she couldn't have asked the Council, and not because I say so, but because canon dialogue lets us know she was presumed dead.

"now claim we restored TOO LITTLE."

Never said that. I was primarily exploring where the unrestored Atris response led to, interpretation-wise - to the suggestion that Kreia was trying to act through Atris. Which is a dead end because, again, ATRIS SPOKE AGAINST LETTING THE EXILE LEAVE, something I didn't even remember when I first raised this topic. I only mention the fact that the line was just plucked out in isolation because it's another thing that makes me not understand what whoever did this was thinking.

" you seem to imply she asked the whole council or was the sole responsible person for the exiling."

Well, yeah. This is probably the crux of our disagreement. The exact phrasing is "I was the one who asked him to be exiled". As if there was one such person and she was the one. How are you interpreting it?

And, again, the response is "I did as you asked", which is just incompatible with the sentencing scene, where Atris is vehemently against the Exile being allowed to leave.

"Very well... you got a point. If we remove all dialogue found at that location we can delete;
* The entire Visas training sequence.
* Atton's dialogue post-Peragus added in 1.8.
* All the training of Jedi companions after Jedification
* Bao-Dur's training sequence.
* The HK-50 questline, the factory.
* Playing actual pazaak with Atton.
* The dialogue of Fassa.
* The T3 gets blasted cutscene on the Hawk.
* The Dantooine academy would be as vanilla, no modifications at all... no teammates, nothing.
* No additional options at Nihilus."

What the HELL are you talking about? The exact thing I said was:

"This isn't a complex scripted quest or area, that could be presumed to have been cut for time. This is just a few lines of text, in an already built dialogue tree, explicitely shoved into a sub-branch pretty much labelled as "do not use this". If they had wanted to use this material, it would have been trivial. So, again, what made anyone think this wasn't left out on purpose?"

HK factory WAS a complex, scripted quest. And we know it was cut for time. Visas' training sequence, to pick another example, was nontrivial either. Neither were marked as "don't script this". Both can be restored seamlessly, without controversial narrative impact. If you're saying that anything I said implies stuff like this shouldn't be restored, then you're just misinterpreting my words in the most malicious way possible for the sake of being able to say something sarcastic.

EDIT: but yeah, Dantooine council scene is problematic and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's much longer now, and generally good game design does not involve stopping actual gameplay for too long, for the sake of cutscenes and uninterruptable dialogues. I wonder how much of the content restored was cut not for time, but for the sake of tightening up the writing and direction (Kreia's superlong monologue while the Jedi Masters wait patiently was already pretty silly in vanilla). Still, I gave considerable thought to how I'd do it and I'm really not sure.

So feel free to tell me where in the game it actually contradicts the storyline

I already said it twice. Kreia couldn't have asked the Council to exile the General, as she says she did, if she was presumed dead in the Mandalorian Wars. And the rest of the game gives us other reasons why the General got exiled. These are contradictions.

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that Kreia influenced Revan to send the General to the Council, which would cause them to pass the (rare) sentence of exile on him, which would cause them to doubt their own teachings? And that she planned this whole chain of events in advance?

OK, first of all, Kreia says "I'm the one who asked him to be exiled". That's a lot of credit to claim. Not even "caused", she says "asked". Well, she was presumed dead, so obviously she wasn't around visibly; she wasn't on the Council herself nor could have been advising them. So how did she ever pull this off? See what I mean with the Palpatine analogy?

Atris' response ("I did as you asked") implies Kreia might have asked Atris specifically, in secret. This at least potentially makes some very limited sense. But this response isn't restored in TSLRCM; instead, Kreia's line is picked out in isolation and just stuck in there.

But even if, why would the rest of the Council play along? Atris' involvement in the sentencing scene was mostly her seething about Revan, about the Exile and how "Malachor should have been his grave", and the others chided her for it. It's clear the rest of the Council were acting out of their own, more thoughtful motivations, and Atris was not some de facto leader who could push any ideas of hers through - and in fact, Atris is the one who speaks AGAINST letting the Exile leave! (She also seems to speak ill of Kreia's teachings, though she doesn't name her explicitely). So unless you can explain to me how Kreia asked Vrook, Kavar, etc, her claim just makes no sense.

And what's this addition /for/ in the story, anyway? What would this explain that isn't already explained well enough? If you keep this line out, Atris' own motives are explained just fine, the Council's own motives are explained just fine, Revan's own motives are explained just fine. It's superfluous - a twist for the sake of itself, and I can see a seasoned writer cutting it out as such.

The main impact of the ideological weapon that was the post-Malachor General was just in his showing up, letting the Council see what Malachor did to him, the consequences of the Council's inaction - which was a useful here-and-now effect to Revan because he was fighting a war, and he wanted to weaken the Jedi's morale. The idea that the point was instead to have them specifically exile him, so that years later they could doubt their decision, and that this somehow would cast doubt on their teachings... that's such an incredible stretch of logic. For all anyone could have known at the time, exiling the PC would have caused them to doubt nothing more than, well, their decision to exile him.

And yes, manipulation does sound like Atris; she's very much a schemer. Kreia isn't the only character who has agency or is capable of cunning. The same can be said of Atris and Revan.

In any case, I still wanna know one thing. This isn't a complex scripted quest or area, that could be presumed to have been cut for time. This is just a few lines of text, in an already built dialogue tree, explicitely shoved into a sub-branch pretty much labelled as "do not use this". If they had wanted to use this material, it would have been trivial. So, again, what made anyone think this wasn't left out on purpose?

I have no idea what you're talking about, the line of Kreia makes perfect sense, and shows off just how manipulative she really is

I thought what I'm talking about is pretty clear, at least that you should be able to understand my thoughts even if you disagree. Well, let me see if I can do better.

That line of Kreia's

1. is contradicted by the rest of the game, and not in any way supported, and

2. doesn't just add to the story, but changes the existing story.

We learn on Dantooine that the Jedi Masters thought Kreia dead in the Mandalorian wars, long before the Exile's sentencing.

We know the Jedi Masters exiled the Exile for their own reasons, and what those are. Vrook wanted him punished for following Revan, and Atris hated him because of... well, Malak's ghost explains it. But mostly, the Council did it because they didn't want to be affected by the change in him, the wound in the Force. It's the same reason they wanted to cut him off from the Force again, during the game.

We know that Kreia's beliefs are in stark contradiction to especially that last one. She thinks that the Exile brought a valuable "truth", and that the Masters should have pursued it to its source rather than reject it; she thinks their actions are symptomatic of the errors of their teachings. The idea that Kreia caused this immediately brings up the question: Why?

If you posit that all this was somehow part of Kreia's manipulations, then you have to contrive explanations for how she pulled it off, and why she'd even want to, because it's an asspull. It's like, imagine if in the special edition of Episode VI Palpatine said "BTW, Luke, I'm the one who caused Obi-Wan Kenobi to take you to Tatooine and waste the first 20 or so years of your life farming (starting this chain of events that eventually ends here, with the destruction of the Rebellion and your fall to the Darkside)". No, just no. I mean sure, if that had been /true/, that would "show off how manipulative he really is". But the rest of the story would have to support it, and it doesn't.

The simplest, obvious explanation is that Kreia line (or subbranch) was recorded because at some point in the creative process the writer was considering it as a possible twist/reveal - and then the story took a different shape, so that just wasn't used. Hell, look into the original .dlg file: that subbranch is explicited marked as alternative lines, not to be scripted. I mean, what's the assumption here, that it was cut for time? Heh.

And yeah, this is a change, not just a restoration. Because the story in vanilla is about the Exile confronting his past: Atris (the unresolved feelings which Atris is in denial about), the Masters (and the wider repercussions of Malachor), etc. There's almost a whole war of ideas going on, of teachings.

To instead say that Kreia is responsible for everything from the start robs the characters of their agency, and the conflicts of their meaning. There is no more war of ideas. How can Kreia condemn the Masters for errors she herself caused them to make?

*read this in Vrook's voice * "But it is of no consequence." Even if this change made sense (it doesn't) and was good writing (it isn't), it's still a significant change to the story, to the background of the events we go through in the game, and a restoration project should avoid that.

Hm, I have seen the fast regen stop when the npc engaged in combat, so maybe there's more to it... but yeah, short story is we can't make it work, probably.

Oh well.

In my current playthrough I got as far as Telos cantina, then when I tried to swoop race, I encountered a bug: my racer was accelerating very rapidly, so that I was able to switch gears every second or so, and finished around 30 seconds (you're supposed to finish around 40s). Has anyone had this before?

My attempts to isolate the bug make this even weirder, so I'll list them:

1. First, I checked if a savegame from an older playthrough would have this problem, to know if this is a problem with my whole installation.

Result: no bug.

2. Then I reloaded a savegame from the same playthrough as the bug, but very early: right at the start, before meeting Kreia on Peragus. Then I warped to the Cantina with warp 207tel and raced.

Result: Bug occurred.

3. Then I created a new character, warping to the cantina right from the Prologue, as T3.

Result: No bug.

4. Then I created a new character, skipped prologue, and warped as the actual PC, from Peragus.

Result: Bug occurred. Tested this a couple times.

5. Then I figured maybe something was getting corrupted upon first loading of Peragus, and thought it might be due to whatever file I had most recently edited in my Override folder. I checked, and that was p_atton.utc (I had fiddled with his skill points and attributes a bit). Couldn't see how that could possibly relate to swoop racing, but I took the file out anyway.

Result: No bug from then on from creating new characters and warping. (of course bug still occurred if I reloaded a savegame from the buggy playthrough.) This made me think p_atton.utc is indeed somehow the culprit.

6. I opened the p_atton.utc with kotor tool to see if any problems would be obviously visible. None were. I closed kotor tool. I did NOT save or change the file. I put it back in Override.

Result: still no bug. Except if I reloaded the savegame from the buggy playthrough, of course. But new characters don't seem to be buggy: if I warp to the cantina and race, everything's fine.

And this is very weird, because to the best of my ability to determine, the p_atton.utc file is unchanged. I used it to overwrite my backup of the same file, and it didn't show it as "newer" or anything.

Does this make sense to anyone?

(Oh, yeah, my mods: TSLRCM 1.8.3, DS transitions, Kill the Ithorian, WCA, some .2da files modified.)

"Also, pretty sure Kreia says that she's the one who asked for Exile to be exiled, during her exposition talk with Atris in Holocron room." - yeah, that's what I mean. This doesn't happen in vanilla. (Even though I trust my memory, I also have a base installation of Kotor 2 besides the TSLRCM one, + a full array of savegames, for quick comparisons).

I don't remember what all was on that site, but here's everything I happen to have kept on my hard drive, in case it helps anyone. Kotor tool, dlg editor, dencs etc.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20846822/temp/Kotor%20Tools.zip

(This link will probably become invalid eventually).

For the sake of completeness, I'll mention that unskippable Visas+Nihilus cutscene that replaced the bik movie still induces a kind of road rage in me. Fortunately, restoring the vanilla k_align_movie script solves that problem.

But overall, I think TSLRCM's flaw is that it seems eager to restore everything possible, with insufficient attention to how this changes the story, as well as direction (scene pacing, what's that?), in some cases making the game worse.

A more meaningful example of a writing change (compared to the Visquis thing I mentioned earlier) is

(SPOILERS)

the line in the late-game Atris dialogue, about how Kreia is the one who asked the Exile to be exiled. It's just a bit of additional dialogue, but it changes so much about the assumptions behind the story. And since dealing with the wounds and echoes of the past is largely the point of the story, as well as making sense out Kreia's various lies, this is not unimportant.

I'm sure it got cut on purpose, as part of an earlier draft of the story, when Atris was the final boss, and Kreia and Atris' roles were somewhat reversed. (We know this existed because a lot of Kreia's dialogue was also recorded by Atris' actress). In the game as-released it was Atris who pushed for the Exile to be exiled. With the story's present shape this restored dialogue just don't make sense: we know Kreia herself was banished, and then presumed dead in the Mandalorian wars, and never resurfaced as a Jedi by the time of Exile's sentencing. But it's like, the audio file was there, so it was restored, story integrity be damned. [ ]

So my ideal mod would be a "TSLRCM light", with the HK factory, bugfixes, and only the most cautious and justified restorations.

Still, the sheer awesomeness of the HK factory, plus those other improvements, make TSLRCM more than worth it as a package deal, and I still heartily recommend TSLRCM to people whenever I can.

"Kill The Ithorian" mod. Must have. Game ain't the same without it.

There's a list of compatible mods in the TSLRCM forum on this board, so look through that.

Me, I just play with TSLRCM, DS transitions, Kill the Ithorian, WCA, and some small balancing tweaks of my own. To me all this graphics-enhancing stuff is off the point, a kind of ungraceful aging I mean, I don't need new textures or models to enjoy Planescape:Torment, and that's an even older game... but hey, that's me.

I had this cool notion that If you increase the outofcombatfpbase value in regeneration.2da to, say, 5.0, this gives a nice boost to out-of-combat regeneration of Force points. Ideally this doesn't make the game easier, since in-combat regen stays the same, it just makes it so you don't have to wait long between combats for your Force to recover. I tried it, and it's wonderfully convenient.

Unfortunately, it also revealed an exploitable issue with how the game determines if you are "in combat". For example, suppose I have a party including the PC, Atton, and Kreia, and I attack something with the PC. If I quickly switch to Kreia before she also attacks, I can start spamming heals and protective buffs endlessly, while keeping the rapid regeneration. As long as I don't actually engage something, and keep casting spells, the game will keep thinking Kreia isn't in combat.

Note that this problem exists in vanilla, and even though it isn't as severe without an increased outofcombatfpbase value, it's still a very real exploit. So does anyone have any brilliant ideas how it could be eliminated? Where exactly does the game do these calculations?

I already determined that the "c_foeinsight" and "c_cnpccombat" scripts are not responsible for this, because even setting them to return True unconditionally doesn't stop the increased regen. Beyond that, I am not sure where to look.

Just tossing it out there in case anyone can help.

EDIT: sometimes the party member keeps the increased regen even if they attack an enemy. I don't get it.

This is one of those terribly minor things, but the door to Chodo Habat when Ithorians are being attacked should probably be made impossible to open with mines, so that you have to go rescue Moza first. If you open it with mines before rescuing Moza, you get the nonsensical result of Chodo greeting Moza even though Moza is still trapped in the other room.

One of my most favourite parts of the game is the rampage you can go on with B4D4, walking around Telos station and causing mischief before you actually get to the job you were tasked with.

Well, did you guys know you can actually commit murder with him? And I don't mean the indirect thing with the two Czerka guys T1-N1 goes berserk on. I mean you, as B4D4, go into combat and beat someone to death with your robotic arms (or more likely, throw grenades at them). Only realized this today.

Just a trivia thing which I wonder if people are generally aware of.

I love this game.

I'd love to be able to make my Crystal Attunement mod compatible with other workbench mods. So, does anyone here actually understand how to use TSLpatcher to merge dlg files? I've read Stoffe's instructions (here) but after an hour or so of messing with them I find they are not clear and detailed enough for me.

If anyone here is actually good at this, a clear, step-by-step, for-dummies explanation would probably make an excellent entry to the Tutorials forum.

I just wonder where that white man head should go instead

...huh, why? Is there some unspoken assumption that every resource you find in the files should be used? IMO precisely the opposite is true: the default assumption should be that stuff got cut to make the game better, and the burden is to find good reasons to think otherwise. And no, "the resource is there, calling to me" isn't a reason

Being asked "What do you hate about TSLRCM" on the TSLRCM forum feels kinda like being asked "What are your weaknesses" on a job interview - one feels wary of answering too honestly or in too much detail But I'll do so anyway.

1. The changed outcome of Mira's and PC's imprisonment by Visquis.

In vanilla Kotor 2 the PC is freed from Visquis' trapped tunnels by Mira. In TSLRCM this is removed, and Visquis makes the decision to open the tunnels himself. This is stupid. It used to be the player's own efforts freed the PC, which felt good. But in TSLRCM the only reason you don't just die there is that the antagonist is an idiot, which feels unsatisfying, especially since it's not just a "restoration" but a CHANGE to existing story elements.

(Disclaimer: this is based on my memories of, I think, TSLRCM 1.6. I'm only starting a playthrough of 1.8.3 but after skimming changelogs I assume this comment still applies.)

2. Saedhe's head on Dantooine.

Of all the decisions to change something in TSLRCM that baffle me, this one does so the most, because it's a simple change and yet obviously wrong, and in no way necessary. As someone earlier said, "He has the voice of an old black man and had a head that matched.  Now he has the head of a middle-aged white man."

3. The dialogue added to T3 in the Prologue.

The whole genius of the character of T3 in vanilla Kotor 2 is that he never says a word you can understand, and yet he's got more personality than most npcs in Kotor 1. You infer it all from the tone, context, the reactions of others. I believe this effect doesn't work as well as it used to, if the player is initially spoiled by getting real dialogue from him, and then that is inexplicably taken away for the rest of the game.

Besides, the dialogue is incomplete and makes no sense. The other droid's advise is always "fix the problem outside the ship" or "the hyperdrive needs work" - and this depends only on how much he likes you! This makes no sense if you've already been outside the ship and collected parts/mines, and especially if you've already fixed the hyperdrive and just need to travel to Peragus.

Of course this could be improved by making the dialogue depend on the tasks you've completed, instead, and making the option to ask his advice disappear completely if the hyperdrive is fixed. Or add a "use the galaxy map" advice line. Still, the line about "fixing the problem outside the ship" makes no sense, period, because you don't fix anything outside the ship, you just collect parts.

Besides, if this is a tutorial level, preparing you for the rest of the game, then the player should be learning to use the journal to keep track of what needs doing, not rely on an NPC mechanic that won't be there for the rest of the game. This isn't PS:T and we won't have Morte telling us what to do the whole game.

Lastly, it feels vaguely wrong to get personality choices for T3 (be nice to the other droid or call him an idiot). T3 is not the PC; his character is set (we know from elsewhere he doesn't approve of being unpleasant to other droids), and there's no need to give him choices like you were going to develop his personality or alignment.

So yeah, this is a minor issue, but the addition just doesn't feel like it fits the game.

In Kotor 1, to get +1 skill points per level you need +4 intelligence. For instance, a scout with 10 int will gain his base of 3 points, and with 14 int he'll gain 4 points.

In Kotor 2, you only need +2 intelligence to get +1 skill point, so a class starting with 3 will get 4 at 12 int and 5 at 14 int. Is there a way to change this, if I wanted to go back to the Kotor 1 restriction? Or is it hardcoded? Been looking through Kotor Tool, with no luck so far, but I've been known to miss obvious things.

The reason I'm asking is that, borrowing ideas from the old Aurora's rebalance mod, I changed all skills to class skills (because I don't like the somewhat arbitrary distribution, nor do I like being unable to get Repair). To compensate for that, I'd prefer to get fewer skill points to distribute.

IIRC, Kill the Ithorian Mod had all of the above.

We have it here, too.

http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/10-kill-the-ithorian/

Also good job BioWare stealing all KOTOR2 music

Oh yeah. The Dantooine Council theme (whatever it's officially called) running in the freakin' character login screen after I left it alone for a few minutes was a wtf to me. That music is special, and needs to be used appropriately, dammit. Not just stuck in anywhere.

ooops delete please.

I'll just throw in that I liked Pinnacle Station. Probably because the first time I tried it, I was lucky and went there with what seems like precisely the levels and equipment to make it /barely/ beatable, so I had a fun time with the challenge. Later on, when I knew better what I was doing, it was easier and less fun, though I still enjoyed going there on subsequent playthroughs.