What do you hate about TSLRCM?

[Darth Hayze 19]

Thanks for the idea SH!

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Pretty sure it doesn't have DS transitions, so those would need to be added for it to be a PC head. Also; icon.

[Kainzorus Prime 200]

The prologue dialogue can be jarring, especially if it's compared to the responses of your regular PC later. Feels like the prologue responses were taken from KotOR 1, with the child-like glee for lightside option and highschool bully brute for darkside one. I'd just stick some random beeps with a note in there instead. Example:

 

1. Beep-deet-deet-vreeet. (Positive)

2. Vrrrrrreeet-beep-bonk. (Negative)

 

And there we go. Alternatively, just give him one catch-all line, since I don't even know if there is an option "You chose a response that 3C-FD dislikes" or somesuch.

 

As for Saedhe head, I really don't mind the change, the voice still fits the white guy. But if people are insisting, I think fake Batu Rem could use some distinction.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

If it's any consolation, I would agree with the tutorial text... but TSLRCM is a group effort... so there's more stuff I don't agree with and some I do agree with others might have disagreed, etc.

[Sith Holocron 2,406]

If it's any consolation, I would agree with the tutorial text... but TSLRCM is a group effort... so there's more stuff I don't agree with and some I do agree with others might have disagreed, etc.

I also agree that reinstating the dialogue for T3-M4 was unnecessary.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

For the sake of completeness, I'll mention that unskippable Visas+Nihilus cutscene that replaced the bik movie still induces a kind of road rage in me. Fortunately, restoring the vanilla k_align_movie script solves that problem.

But overall, I think TSLRCM's flaw is that it seems eager to restore everything possible, with insufficient attention to how this changes the story, as well as direction (scene pacing, what's that?), in some cases making the game worse.

A more meaningful example of a writing change (compared to the Visquis thing I mentioned earlier) is

(SPOILERS)

the line in the late-game Atris dialogue, about how Kreia is the one who asked the Exile to be exiled. It's just a bit of additional dialogue, but it changes so much about the assumptions behind the story. And since dealing with the wounds and echoes of the past is largely the point of the story, as well as making sense out Kreia's various lies, this is not unimportant.

I'm sure it got cut on purpose, as part of an earlier draft of the story, when Atris was the final boss, and Kreia and Atris' roles were somewhat reversed. (We know this existed because a lot of Kreia's dialogue was also recorded by Atris' actress). In the game as-released it was Atris who pushed for the Exile to be exiled. With the story's present shape this restored dialogue just don't make sense: we know Kreia herself was banished, and then presumed dead in the Mandalorian wars, and never resurfaced as a Jedi by the time of Exile's sentencing. But it's like, the audio file was there, so it was restored, story integrity be damned. [ ]

So my ideal mod would be a "TSLRCM light", with the HK factory, bugfixes, and only the most cautious and justified restorations.

 

Still, the sheer awesomeness of the HK factory, plus those other improvements, make TSLRCM more than worth it as a package deal, and I still heartily recommend TSLRCM to people whenever I can.

[Kainzorus Prime 200]

Pretty sure the cutscene is skippable, at least for me. The music is still glitched to play the same Sith theme as normal on Ravager, though, and that's after clean install of 1.8.3.

 

Also, pretty sure Kreia says that she's the one who asked for Exile to be exiled, during her exposition talk with Atris in Holocron room. And I still don't see how the 'passing the mantle of Darth Traya' would work in the game as it is. Kreia is set up to be grand manipulator, making most major characters in the game end up dead or broken, as is her schtick. I don't see why she would leave exile for dead on Dantooine, then go to Atris and be all like 'Here, be a Sith Lord, I'm done'. It doesn't work, since you wouldn't leave a threat present in Kreia running around just to go for Atris, who virtually holds no power over you, as opposed to Kreia who has the 'I die, you die, force bond' card.

 

What I'm curious about, is there any material in the game that made it past the concept stage regarding Atris being a party member, at least for Ravager. She has the portrait in the game files, and the concept had her face off against Nihilus, so I'm curious how far that went before being scrapped.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

"Also, pretty sure Kreia says that she's the one who asked for Exile to be exiled, during her exposition talk with Atris in Holocron room." - yeah, that's what I mean. This doesn't happen in vanilla. (Even though I trust my memory, I also have a base installation of Kotor 2 besides the TSLRCM one, + a full array of savegames, for quick comparisons).

[VarsityPuppet 1,084]

Pretty sure it doesn't have DS transitions, so those would need to be added for it to be a PC head. Also; icon.

 

His head model is remarkably similar to Carth's. Perhaps it was meant to be a slightly more mature-looking Carth, or perhaps, Admiral Cede (since Saedhe and Cede could have similar pronunciation). This is simply speculation though, and I know I originally pushed for the change mainly because of the appearance of the texture. It has that same quality as Zherron's face texture, so it seemed best fit on Dantooine. Not saying it's right, just what I thought.

 

But overall, I think TSLRCM's flaw is that it seems eager to restore everything possible, with insufficient attention to how this changes the story, as well as direction (scene pacing, what's that?), in some cases making the game worse.

 

So my ideal mod would be a "TSLRCM light", with the HK factory, bugfixes, and only the most cautious and justified restorations.

I am inclined to agree with you. I would, however, not take the TSLRCM lite route, but simply get rid of lines like that that change the meaning of some of the game or interrupt the pacing. I guess most of this would be near the end-game though.

 

 

Still, the sheer awesomeness of the HK factory, plus those other improvements, make TSLRCM more than worth it as a package deal, and I still heartily recommend TSLRCM to people whenever I can.

 

I'm glad you enjoy the HK factory, although I know there are things I would change were I to go back and work on it again. Considering how time consuming it is to get work like that done compared to how fast it should be, that probably won't happen until I write up the tools to make that stuff waaaaaaaay easier.

 

What I'm curious about, is there any material in the game that made it past the concept stage regarding Atris being a party member, at least for Ravager. She has the portrait in the game files, and the concept had her face off against Nihilus, so I'm curious how far that went before being scrapped.

I haven't really ever found anything, but I've always wondered whether or not it could be reasonably done so that Atris could become a party member. There isn't really dialog, unfortunately, although you could probably just use some variant of the dialog she uses in the Telos Academy.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

We know it's for Saedhe since the file is called UNIQUE_HEAD_SAEDHE.

There's no guessing involved, or "who would fit this cut content best"... I'm not Wesp5!

 

The funny thing is... there are plenty of people who really hate, LOATHE the HK-Factory. Who are you to say what are "justified restorations" and what aren't... everyone has their own definition. The only way to solve that would be to

1) Screw that... TSLRCM (the option chosen)

2) Let's appease everyone, 2000 different TSLRCM versions, all needing updating for bugfixes (I think Zbyl would lynch me if I ever suggested that)

3) "Install whatever you want" module installation... which is impossible due to how KOTOR2's engine/override works.

4) Say 'screw this people bitching what's good and not' and not release a mod at all, TSLRP style.

 

Which of the 3 others do you prefer, Markus?

 

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about, the line of Kreia makes perfect sense, and shows off just how manipulative she really is... and how much she influenced everyone and the galaxy even if everyone presumed her dead, except for Revan of course...

I have no idea what gives you the idea that it was part of Atris being the final boss, it makes no sense in that regard at all.. :?

[VarsityPuppet 1,084]

We know it's for Saedhe since the file is called UNIQUE_HEAD_SAEDHE.

There's no guessing involved, or "who would fit this cut content best"... I'm not Wesp5!

I'm simply speculating is all. At the time it seemed pretty obvious, but having become a bit more familiar with the development process of games and apps, I wouldn't be incredibly surprised if it turned out that Saedhe was supposed to be someone else (or have his lines voiced by someone else)

 

The funny thing is... there are plenty of people who really hate, LOATHE the HK-Factory.

:'(

 

Who are you to say what are "justified restorations" and what aren't... everyone has their own definition.

That's why you make your own mods

 

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about, the line of Kreia makes perfect sense, and shows off just how manipulative she really is... and how much she influenced everyone and the galaxy even if everyone presumed her dead, except for Revan of course...

I have no idea what gives you the idea that it was part of Atris being the final boss, it makes no sense in that regard at all.. :?

It can and does make sense, although I think Markus is talking about how it seems Obsidian had plans for both Kreia and Atris to be the "Darth Traya" of the game and how adding VO, just for the sake of having more content, might undermine the game narrative (or something like that)

[Markus Ramikin 107]

I have no idea what you're talking about, the line of Kreia makes perfect sense, and shows off just how manipulative she really is

 

 

I thought what I'm talking about is pretty clear, at least that you should be able to understand my thoughts even if you disagree. Well, let me see if I can do better.

 

That line of Kreia's

1. is contradicted by the rest of the game, and not in any way supported, and

2. doesn't just add to the story, but changes the existing story.

 

We learn on Dantooine that the Jedi Masters thought Kreia dead in the Mandalorian wars, long before the Exile's sentencing.

 

We know the Jedi Masters exiled the Exile for their own reasons, and what those are. Vrook wanted him punished for following Revan, and Atris hated him because of... well, Malak's ghost explains it. But mostly, the Council did it because they didn't want to be affected by the change in him, the wound in the Force. It's the same reason they wanted to cut him off from the Force again, during the game.

 

We know that Kreia's beliefs are in stark contradiction to especially that last one. She thinks that the Exile brought a valuable "truth", and that the Masters should have pursued it to its source rather than reject it; she thinks their actions are symptomatic of the errors of their teachings. The idea that Kreia caused this immediately brings up the question: Why?

 

If you posit that all this was somehow part of Kreia's manipulations, then you have to contrive explanations for how she pulled it off, and why she'd even want to, because it's an asspull. It's like, imagine if in the special edition of Episode VI Palpatine said "BTW, Luke, I'm the one who caused Obi-Wan Kenobi to take you to Tatooine and waste the first 20 or so years of your life farming (starting this chain of events that eventually ends here, with the destruction of the Rebellion and your fall to the Darkside)". No, just no. I mean sure, if that had been /true/, that would "show off how manipulative he really is". But the rest of the story would have to support it, and it doesn't.

 

The simplest, obvious explanation is that Kreia line (or subbranch) was recorded because at some point in the creative process the writer was considering it as a possible twist/reveal - and then the story took a different shape, so that just wasn't used. Hell, look into the original .dlg file: that subbranch is explicited marked as alternative lines, not to be scripted. I mean, what's the assumption here, that it was cut for time? Heh.

 

And yeah, this is a change, not just a restoration. Because the story in vanilla is about the Exile confronting his past: Atris (the unresolved feelings which Atris is in denial about), the Masters (and the wider repercussions of Malachor), etc. There's almost a whole war of ideas going on, of teachings.

 

To instead say that Kreia is responsible for everything from the start robs the characters of their agency, and the conflicts of their meaning. There is no more war of ideas. How can Kreia condemn the Masters for errors she herself caused them to make?

 

*read this in Vrook's voice * "But it is of no consequence." Even if this change made sense (it doesn't) and was good writing (it isn't), it's still a significant change to the story, to the background of the events we go through in the game, and a restoration project should avoid that.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Then it's a good thing we don't

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Oh, here we go...

 

Revan was Kreia's pupil. Revan send the Exile back to the Masters to spread discord.

Kreia wanted the Masters to admit they were flawed, that their teachings were flawed. It seems Revan played right into that.

 

And yes, the Masters exiled the player. However, upon approaching all of them you learn Vash, Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar regretted that, and it infact lead to their 'break' with the Jedi Order. Exiling the Exile made them doubt themselves, their beliefs, exactly what Revan & Kreia would want.

The only ones who don't are Vrook, but he's Vrook and curiously, Atris. Who still very strongly believes in that.

 

Atris;

It's pretty obvious from the "old woman? I don't recall an old woman" that they had past. Kreia admits as such if you ask her about Atris. If you kill Atris in the end you learn her holocrons contain many of the beliefs and teachings of... Darth Traya.

She has basked in the knowledge of those holocrons many times. When Kreia enters the Academy at the end as prisoner, you may notice how she isn't even held captive... they allow her to walk around freely and allow her to leave without problems. A curious thing wouldn't you say, and pretty contradicting to the players own visit to the Academy where the maidens are specifically saying they keep their eye on the Exile even if Atris allows him/her to walk around.

 

Then we also learn that Atris is responsible for luring the Exile out of exile, luring Nihilus to Katarr to destroy it, and thus basically set in motion ALL the events that happen in Knights of the Old Republic II. Does such massive manipulations seem more in character for Atris... or Kreia? Remember, again, Atris studied Kreia's teachings extensively.

 

It seems that the Exile being send back by Revan to the Council and them exiling him/her lead exactly to Kreia's desires, that they would doubt themselves and their own teachings. Exactly what she's after all this time.

 

So feel free to tell me where in the game it actually contradicts the storyline, instead of being very much part of it as I stated above...?

[Markus Ramikin 107]

So feel free to tell me where in the game it actually contradicts the storyline

I already said it twice. Kreia couldn't have asked the Council to exile the General, as she says she did, if she was presumed dead in the Mandalorian Wars. And the rest of the game gives us other reasons why the General got exiled. These are contradictions.

 

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that Kreia influenced Revan to send the General to the Council, which would cause them to pass the (rare) sentence of exile on him, which would cause them to doubt their own teachings? And that she planned this whole chain of events in advance?

 

OK, first of all, Kreia says "I'm the one who asked him to be exiled". That's a lot of credit to claim. Not even "caused", she says "asked". Well, she was presumed dead, so obviously she wasn't around visibly; she wasn't on the Council herself nor could have been advising them. So how did she ever pull this off? See what I mean with the Palpatine analogy?

 

Atris' response ("I did as you asked") implies Kreia might have asked Atris specifically, in secret. This at least potentially makes some very limited sense. But this response isn't restored in TSLRCM; instead, Kreia's line is picked out in isolation and just stuck in there.

 

But even if, why would the rest of the Council play along? Atris' involvement in the sentencing scene was mostly her seething about Revan, about the Exile and how "Malachor should have been his grave", and the others chided her for it. It's clear the rest of the Council were acting out of their own, more thoughtful motivations, and Atris was not some de facto leader who could push any ideas of hers through - and in fact, Atris is the one who speaks AGAINST letting the Exile leave! (She also seems to speak ill of Kreia's teachings, though she doesn't name her explicitely). So unless you can explain to me how Kreia asked Vrook, Kavar, etc, her claim just makes no sense.

 

And what's this addition /for/ in the story, anyway? What would this explain that isn't already explained well enough? If you keep this line out, Atris' own motives are explained just fine, the Council's own motives are explained just fine, Revan's own motives are explained just fine. It's superfluous - a twist for the sake of itself, and I can see a seasoned writer cutting it out as such.

 

The main impact of the ideological weapon that was the post-Malachor General was just in his showing up, letting the Council see what Malachor did to him, the consequences of the Council's inaction - which was a useful here-and-now effect to Revan because he was fighting a war, and he wanted to weaken the Jedi's morale. The idea that the point was instead to have them specifically exile him, so that years later they could doubt their decision, and that this somehow would cast doubt on their teachings... that's such an incredible stretch of logic. For all anyone could have known at the time, exiling the PC would have caused them to doubt nothing more than, well, their decision to exile him.

 

And yes, manipulation does sound like Atris; she's very much a schemer. Kreia isn't the only character who has agency or is capable of cunning. The same can be said of Atris and Revan.

 

In any case, I still wanna know one thing. This isn't a complex scripted quest or area, that could be presumed to have been cut for time. This is just a few lines of text, in an already built dialogue tree, explicitely shoved into a sub-branch pretty much labelled as "do not use this". If they had wanted to use this material, it would have been trivial. So, again, what made anyone think this wasn't left out on purpose?

 

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Let's see...

Atris has holocrons of Kreia... and got obviously influenced by them, and she was the strongest supporter of exiling the Exile... yet; she couldn't possible have asked that of Atris because... you say so? That's pretty fragile evidence.

Also you seem to imply she asked the whole council or was the sole responsible person for the exiling. There's nothing of the sort in the line at all, so why do you imprint it in them to "prove your point", a point that's not even the point of the line.

 

You say there's just that line, but you're forgetting "Yes. I was here both times when the exile was brought before you." the first time implying his/her exile.

 

Let me tell I find it funny first you are all "we must destroy this, TSLRCM lite, blabla" and now claim we restored TOO LITTLE. For your information, I do agree that line should be there. It's quite the opposite of nuking additions of TSLRCM though... XD

 

Imprinting an idea in one person, spreading it onto other Jedi Masters, like a ripple... that's influencing and setting things in motion, manipulating.

 

It's not "years later doubt themselves"... it's instant. You even say it yourself; 'lower morale'... but somehow this making them doubt themselves (ie. the very freaking definition of 'lowering morale') is somehow far-fetched. Explain me how an apple is so different from an apple it's getting ridicilous please.

 

Yes, but you, once again, forget Atris scheming is done with the holocrons of the Sith, and infact the very holocrons of Darth Traya and her teachings...

Revan and Kreia aren't that far from each other either, especially taking HK-47's Echo dialogue in mind...

 

Very well... you got a point. If we remove all dialogue found at that location we can delete;

* The entire Visas training sequence.

* Atton's dialogue post-Peragus added in 1.8.

* All the training of Jedi companions after Jedification

* Bao-Dur's training sequence.

* The HK-50 questline, the factory.

* Playing actual pazaak with Atton.

* The dialogue of Fassa.

* The T3 gets blasted cutscene on the Hawk.

* The Dantooine academy would be as vanilla, no modifications at all... no teammates, nothing.

* No additional options at Nihilus.

 

* And probably much, much, MUCH more I forgot.

 

Oh, we pretty much can forget all of TSLRCM... you get... vanilla TSL. Enjoy your game... why use the mod if you hate it restoring content that ended up getting cut? :/

I'm pretty sure they had good reasons to add typo's and stuff to prevent content unlocking... AS YOU YOURSELF SAID TO MY FACE ONCE... :/

 

It's not like the game got rushed out of the door that they were able to make a full pass of all the content or something...

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Dude, I'm trying to be civil to you, but try to reply to what I actually said, not to what you can possibly twist my words into.

 

"yet; she couldn't possible have asked that of Atris because... you say so"

 

Never said that. I said she couldn't have asked the Council, and not because I say so, but because canon dialogue lets us know she was presumed dead.

 

"now claim we restored TOO LITTLE."

 

Never said that. I was primarily exploring where the unrestored Atris response led to, interpretation-wise - to the suggestion that Kreia was trying to act through Atris. Which is a dead end because, again, ATRIS SPOKE AGAINST LETTING THE EXILE LEAVE, something I didn't even remember when I first raised this topic. I only mention the fact that the line was just plucked out in isolation because it's another thing that makes me not understand what whoever did this was thinking.

 

" you seem to imply she asked the whole council or was the sole responsible person for the exiling."

 

Well, yeah. This is probably the crux of our disagreement. The exact phrasing is "I was the one who asked him to be exiled". As if there was one such person and she was the one. How are you interpreting it?

 

And, again, the response is "I did as you asked", which is just incompatible with the sentencing scene, where Atris is vehemently against the Exile being allowed to leave.

 

"Very well... you got a point. If we remove all dialogue found at that location we can delete;
* The entire Visas training sequence.
* Atton's dialogue post-Peragus added in 1.8.
* All the training of Jedi companions after Jedification
* Bao-Dur's training sequence.
* The HK-50 questline, the factory.
* Playing actual pazaak with Atton.
* The dialogue of Fassa.
* The T3 gets blasted cutscene on the Hawk.
* The Dantooine academy would be as vanilla, no modifications at all... no teammates, nothing.
* No additional options at Nihilus."

 

What the HELL are you talking about? The exact thing I said was:

 

"This isn't a complex scripted quest or area, that could be presumed to have been cut for time. This is just a few lines of text, in an already built dialogue tree, explicitely shoved into a sub-branch pretty much labelled as "do not use this". If they had wanted to use this material, it would have been trivial. So, again, what made anyone think this wasn't left out on purpose?"

 

HK factory WAS a complex, scripted quest. And we know it was cut for time. Visas' training sequence, to pick another example, was nontrivial either. Neither were marked as "don't script this". Both can be restored seamlessly, without controversial narrative impact. If you're saying that anything I said implies stuff like this shouldn't be restored, then you're just misinterpreting my words in the most malicious way possible for the sake of being able to say something sarcastic.

 

EDIT: but yeah, Dantooine council scene is problematic and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's much longer now, and generally good game design does not involve stopping actual gameplay for too long, for the sake of cutscenes and uninterruptable dialogues. I wonder how much of the content restored was cut not for time, but for the sake of tightening up the writing and direction (Kreia's superlong monologue while the Jedi Masters wait patiently was already pretty silly in vanilla). Still, I gave considerable thought to how I'd do it and I'm really not sure.

[Sith Holocron 2,406]

This conversation between Markus and HH might be better suited to a PM. What do you two say?

[Markus Ramikin 107]

This conversation between Markus and HH might be better suited to a PM. What do you two say?

Yeah, I suppose it's best if we don't hijack the thread. But just sayin', if one starts a topic like this, one might actually get an answer that takes one up on it.

 

But okay, bowing out.

[danil-ch 66]

Back to the topic... 

 

I do not like one thing - the Khoonda battle on merc side. It's incredibly easy. What's worse, it not even require any action from player. Mercs usually slaughter all the defenders in a half-minute without a single casualty.

 

 I do agree that line should be there. It's quite the opposite of nuking additions of TSLRCM though... XD

1.84 maybe? 

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Say, now that I think about it, where the hell did Visquis put Mira, anyway, after that off-screen recapture? My player-controlled Exile tears the base apart and yet can't find her anywhere, but Atton shows up, and, voila, there's Mira?

 

*in Plinkett's voice* "That don't make sense..."

 

And what does she mean by "you may have defeated Visquis, but [...] Goto has your friend"? At this point Visquis isn't defeated yet.

 

And yet you can't move this dialogue to after Visquis' death, because in the same dialogue she says "You've got Visquis's attention".

 

I confused.

[ancient46 12]

What the ancient hates is the ambient noise sound that plays almost every where, It is way to loud and soon becomes annoying for me.  None of wav players I have will play the game files, so I can't as yet reduce the volume.

[Malkior 469]

@Ancient You mean the background music, or something more specific, like wind, creature sounds, etc... ?

[ancient46 12]

I mean the white noise that plays almost constantly. An example of this is the constant background noise on the Ebon Hawk. It is way too loud for me.

[miseryrevived 0]

I also found some of the Jekk'Jekk Tarr/underground base parts a little odd. The vision my lightside Exile had of Mira before going into the arena to confront Visquis seemed out of place since the Exile doesn't save Mira. For a moment, I thought the game was trying to tell me to go and find Mira before it transitioned. Not only is it odd that Atton finds Mira despite the fact that the Exile can search the entire base, but how does he get through the Jekk'Jekk Tarr without a spacesuit? My last problem - where is Zez Kai Ell? He goes to help but just disappears after his conversation with the unconscious Exile until the Exile meets up with him after Goto's Yacht. (Note: I love this mod and would definitely recommend it, this part just seemed a bit off to me.)