The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION

[revan21 22]

I felt like I Hate Everything's video about TLJ was pretty good. I also suggest watching the Comment Comeback.

 

The whole The Last jedi discussion just showed how disjointed and toxic the whole Star Wars community is. On one side, I think it's great how the movie got people talking and discussing it, but the way many did it was just embarassing. I also don't get why so many people focus on petty details and blow them up to huge proportions when the OT had many moments that made even less sense. I'm honestly glad that it made certain "fans" so mad that they quit watching new Star Wars movies because it means that we have to suffer through less bullshit when trying to talk about future installments. 

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I felt like I Hate Everything's video about TLJ was pretty good. I also suggest watching the Comment Comeback.

 

The whole The Last jedi discussion just showed how disjointed and toxic the whole Star Wars community is. On one side, I think it's great how the movie got people talking and discussing it, but the way many did it was just embarassing. I also don't get why so many people focus on petty details and blow them up to huge proportions when the OT had many moments that made even less sense. I'm honestly glad that it made certain "fans" so mad that they quit watching new Star Wars movies because it means that we have to suffer through less bullshit when trying to talk about future installments.

So, is the implication that if you don't like The Last Jedi, that you're toxic to the community? If so, you do realize language like that is contributing to the toxicity, right?

 

(To be clear, this is a question, not an accusation. If the premise of the first is not true, then the second question is inconsequential)

 

Apparently that's the media's narrative.

Racists. Bots. People who can't watch movies. Not enough nostalgia (but TFA did just fine in China, even Rogue One did better but let's not talk about that). Too much nostalgia. Fanboys. Anti-fanboys.

As stated I've yet to see a vid on YouTube actually putting forth points of content like you guys, so I'm simply interested in any 1Leonard *was* able to find. But sadly, that seems to lead nowhere :/

I think that's what bothers me more than the movie itself. I didn't hate The Last Jedi, but I didn't really enjoy it either. I think I understand the reasons on both sides, I just agree with more of the points that argue that it's not as good (at the moment at least).

 

But the dominant (media) narrative is that The Last Jedi is objectively good, and if you don't like it, you're a racist, sexist, whiny fanboy or a bot. That's the narrative. No nuance.

 

If it's clear there's one opinion that's being more misrepresented than the other, I wonder which one it is...?

 

Which reminds me, Hassat, when is the next meeting of the Racist Sexist Whiny Fanboy Star Wars Bot Society? I'm not sure I'll make it to this next one.

 

(to be clear, I should point out this a joke, since again, nuance is apparently not a thing. And no, this in itself is not a dig at people who don't seem to understand nuance)

[Duvai 6]

@Hassat Hunter I agree with you and to reply to your status update I'll say this.. It is a sad day because TLJ's lightspeed collision scene was more than just a visual effect, it was a symbolic gesture of the shattering of whats came before - Aldo turns the ship around(faces the past so to speak) and obliterates the followers. Ren says kill the past, this is sheer hypocrisy on the writers behalf - for these sequels are remakes of the OT and to maximize profit they begrudgingly have to accept the existing fanbase, while gaining new fans and then shedding themselves off, of the old fans... Its classic 'coukoo' strategy.

 

For anyone having trouble with 'its an ESB remake statement'... A lot of people don't get the Canto Bight part in the film. I'll explain. A splinter group of the protagonists go to a location to find someone who can help them but they ultimately get betrayed by the one who was meant to help them... Mmmkay, thats just what happens with Lando in Cloud City where people are meant to be well off.. "with the people of the clouds" comment to Leia.

[Haveayap 127]

so disliking TLJ because it was a bad film with bad writing, unnecessary stories being told, bad jokes makes me toxic? Mmkay

 

That's such a childish point of view

[Hassat Hunter 571]

I've got a nice 5-hour set of vids in the other topic to show it's not "petty details"

 

As for IHE pretty sure his entire video simply curtails of attacking people disliking the movie and being super critical of fans of Star Wars... basically the entire point I was making of find when searching for pro-TLJ vids on YouTube. I'll check the other one out when I got the time though.

Not that I've got that much faith seeing how you also simply dismiss us all, and then apparently we are the toxic ones.

. I'm honestly glad that it made certain "fans" so mad that they quit watching new Star Wars movies because it means that we have to suffer through less bullshit when trying to talk about future installments.

Got to be one of the most BS things I read.

 

Which reminds me, Hassat, when is the next meeting of the Racist Sexist Whiny Fanboy Star Wars Bot Society? I'm not sure I'll make it to this next one.

I've programmed it into your agenda. To be double sure you find it it's Execute(Racism.exe) under If Female THEN Whine.

[revan21 22]

I didn't mean to say that you're toxic if you dislike the movie. It's just that many people acted in a very toxic and inappropriate way. Should have made that clearer. 

 

As for IHE pretty sure his entire video simply curtails of attacking people disliking the movie and being super critical of fans of Star Wars... basically the entire point I was making of find when searching for pro-TLJ vids on YouTube. I'll check the other one out when I got the time though.
Not that I've got that much faith seeing how you also simply dismiss us all, and then apparently we are the toxic ones.

Wow thanks for not even watching it. I guess 1Leonard way right then.  

 

[DarthVarkor 384]

Disliking something is fine.

 

Liking something is also fine.

 

Challenging someone's viewpoint (if you disagree) in a civil and polite manner is fine.

 

Insulting and/or name-calling someone because they don't share your opinion (opinion, not fact, all art is subjective) is wrong.

 

This is how we get toxic fan-bases. Don't agree with someone's opinion on a film? Cool, explain why, nicely, and move on. No one is forcing you to re-watch it. The same goes for people who like something. If you feel passionately about it, argue your points, nicely, see if you can change their mind. Don't force your viewpoint on someone who doesn't agree with it. For example: It baffles me how some people can truly enjoy all three of the prequels and even rank them above the new films, but that's my opinion, not a fact.

 

It saddens me this topic even exists, we're all fans of Star Wars at the end of the day, that's why we're all here.

 

 

TL;DR: Be mature & respectable when talking about films. Right now as a community, we're living up to the stereotype of hardcore Star Wars fanboys on the internet who aren't happy with anything.

[1Leonard 134]

As stated I've yet to see a vid on YouTube actually putting forth points of content like you guys, so I'm simply interested in any 1Leonard *was* able to find. But sadly, that seems to lead nowhere :/

Contrary to popular belief, I don't have time to be on DeadlyStream 24/7

 

I will reply just this once, even though I repeatedlly stated that I'm tired of this nonproductive discussion. Also let's just forget that the starter post of this new thread was taken out of context from another one and just put up here without me knowing about it, forcing me to reply.

 

Also: I don't think TLJ is great, I merely think that it's not the worst movie ever made.

 

I have put a youtube video with actual points at the end of this post, you can just scroll down to that if you don't want to read it, I don't care. 

 

However, I'd like to look at what's already happening here in this thread. In the couple of posts between this one and my previous one the discussion has ALREADY devolved into one where nothing of value is posted by some

 

 

so disliking TLJ because it was a bad film with bad writing, unnecessary stories being told, bad jokes makes me toxic? Mmkay

 

That's such a childish point of view

Like this post, literally no one is saying that people are toxic for not liking a movie. What's toxic is the way people discuss their dislike of the film. You have cause and effect backwards.

 

 

 

Besides that we have a completely unfounded claim (which is either a complete overexaggeration or a complete lie) that says that everyone who doesn't HATE TLJ is saying that people who do are racists/sexists/homophobes. Literally no one of importance has a video saying that. Else point me to someone who does because:

 

As for IHE pretty sure his entire video simply curtails of attacking people disliking the movie and being super critical of fans of Star Wars... basically the entire point I was making of find when searching for pro-TLJ vids on YouTube. I'll check the other one out when I got the time though.

 

This is all just a complete lie. First of I've just watched the linked video of IHE on 1.5x speed and he starts the video showing enough merchandise of Star Wars that I'd call him a fan. He is not critical of the fans of Star Wars, he is critical of their arguments and the hate bandwagon that took off the second TLJ was released in theaters.  And being critical was of Star Wars fans was NOT the point you were making. The point you were making was that people "defending" TLJ made:

 vids telling us we're racist/sexist if we dislike it. We don't know "how to watch movies" (That one was a funny one). We're whiny OT fanboys. All "defenses" I can find are assaults on dislikers, none about qualities of the movie.

But if you know any, I would be interested in seeing them since I can't find them.

 

also you claimed that: 

And I would be interested in a counter video since the only defense of TLJ I've seen so far is attacking others, or platitudes ("Oh, it's so bold, and moves it all in a new direction"). Or just throw around it made 1.3Billion as "fact" it's good. If someone got actual points, I would love to hear them since that would be a first.

 

None of which happen in the IHE video and none of which happen in my posted video below, so don't you start moving goalposts now.

If you haven't watched the video just say so but don't pull something out of your ass.

Lastly, can I just say that I hate how you try to frame videos as being "pro" or "anti" TLJ? Please stop that, people can think it's an okay movie without loving it, people can think it's a bad without thinking it's the worst thing ever.

Life doesn't have just one variable.

 

Having said that, here a video which refutes or explains most problems people have with the movie. It's amazing that you somehow managed to avoid it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpoUN_A12Eg

[Mutilator57 140]

I checked out of that thread a long time ago, It is currently only filled with vitriolic fans who do nothing more than post videos about how bad TLJ is. I could do the same with videos arguing the opposite points, but why bother?

 

The same happened with the thread discussing episode VII (which I don't love but think is okay, just like TLJ), I spent quite a lot of time working on posts and trying to have genuine respectful conversations but it seems to me that a lot of the Star Wars fans here have some kind of personal vendetta against anything that is Star Wars post-Disney buyout. 

I don't wish to prolong the agony so I'll keep this short and sweet. As someone who was a vociferous critic of TFA back in the day, just as I am of TLJ, may I just say while there was and *is* sniping on both sides, in 'our' defence, the animosity directed at those who dare question the new trilogy's direction was intense, implacable and barely-controlled. We have a little bit more stock now as the other non-movie-related failures of the Disney-led SW universe have started to take shape too, but we're still very much the pariahs of the fanbase because of this irrational fear of being too 'negative'.

 

In my opinion, it's the same kind of poison that's bled over from political life - it's now fashionable for everyone to detest so-called 'negative campaigning'. Yet when it comes to the ads people most remember, they're almost always the most negative ones. And so be it. How can you compare the pros and cons of something without presenting the negative; the contrast?

 

At the risk of sound evasive, I of course also needn't point out that there's never a license to insult people personally or engage in petty low-blows in these kind of things either

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Mutilator57

[1Leonard 134]

 the animosity directed at those who dare question the new trilogy's direction was intense, implacable and barely-controlled. 

 

Where? By whom? Intense how? Barely-controlled how?

Give me some examples here. Besides the "Alt-Right boycots Star Wars because John Boyega plays in it" Hoax.

[Mutilator57 140]

Where? By whom? Intense how? Barely-controlled how?

Give me some examples here. Besides the "Alt-Right boycots Star Wars because John Boyega plays in it" Hoax.

... are you sure you and I are following the same thing? Look no further than our own TFA thread which was a cesspool of anger and vitriol. I just had another little peruse myself, and boy, if all that doesn't fall under the purview of the adjectives I use then I don't know what will.

 

If you're looking for extra-DS examples, simply take a look at Star Wars Hub on FB - their relentless pro-Disney line is infamous.

[1Leonard 134]

Look no further than our own TFA thread which was a cesspool of anger and vitriol. I just had another little peruse myself, and boy, if all that doesn't fall under the purview of the adjectives I use then I don't know what will.

I know. I was the one who pointed that out in the first place. However that's not was your defense was, your defence was that:

 

 in 'our' defence, the animosity directed at those who dare question the new trilogy's direction was intense, implacable and barely-controlled. We have a little bit more stock now as the other non-movie-related failures of the Disney-led SW universe have started to take shape too, but we're still very much the pariahs of the fanbase because of this irrational fear of being too 'negative'.

Which in itself implies a one way mistreatment because you are perceived of being too negative.

 

So I ask you, where are you a Pariah?

 

It's clearly not here. This site has an overwhelming negative bias against TLJ and New Star Wars

 

I've never heard of Star Wars Hub, I just went there for the first time and I can't find those pro-Disney posts you're talking about?

 

Just look at these posts

 

Unless there is some hidden pro-Disney page I can't find on that facebook, where is it?

 

The star wars reddit has healthy discussions with both critiques of the film and people who like it, so it can't be there.

 

4chan is heavily against everything that is non-Lucas Star Wars, so I can't imagine you guys would be a pariah there.

 

So where are you a "pariah of the fanbase"?

[peedeeboy 23]

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I liked TLJ.... just!    There is both good and bad in this film, so anybody's opinion either way is perfectly valid.  For me, the good just.. just, ebbed out the bad.

 

I went in wanting to love this film.  I was super stoked when I heard Rian Johnson was writing and directing TLJ.  Brick is one of my all time favourite films.  I didn't care much for The Brothers Bloom, but I did really enjoy (apart from a massive plot hole), Looper.  One thing I've thought Rian's films have been good at is world building, and I really expected his film to expand and explore interesting corners of the Star Wars universe, rather than just retread the same beats the way TFA did..

 

The good

I liked that TLJ had some recurring themes:

 

Learning from failure - Obi Wan's first Padawan falls to the dark side and becomes Vader.  But then he has success much later in Luke.  Luke fails at first in teaching Kylo, but then finds success with Rey.  Yoda explains "failure is our greatest teacher", having failed himself with Dooku.  Po learns from leading a bunch of people to their deaths so that he can become a true leader.

 

Conflict - The conflict between the Resistance and the First Order.  The ongoing conflict between light and dark, always rising up to meet each other.  The conflict within the main characters: Luke is disillusioned with the Jedi, yet when Yoda actually sets fire to the tree, he tries to run in to save the books.  Rey is falling in love with Kylo, yet knows he's a wrong-un.  Holdo hates Poe's insubordination, yet hugely admires his passion.

 

Letting go of the past to build a better future - Luke wants to burn down the last artefacts of the Jedi so that something better might rise from the ashes.  Kylo wants to tear down both the Resistance and First Order for the same reason.  Kylo smashes his mask and gives up his Vader fetish.  I felt like this was a direct message to the audience "if you want truly great new Star Wars films, that tell new exciting stories, you have to be prepared to let go of the old characters you hold so dear".  Yoda says "We are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all masters."

 

Sacrifice - Po sacrifices his flight group to destroy the dreadnought and is angry with Holdo for what he perceives as a lack of action, yet Holdo doesn't hesitate in sacrificing herself to save others.  Rose sacrifices herself to prevent Finn's sacrifice.  Luke sacrifices himself to allow everyone to escape.

 

 

I liked that I left the cinema asking myself questions:  

 

If you have the power / ability to stand up for others, are you morally obliged to?  When is the time to stand and fight, and when is discretion the better part of valour?  When is it acceptable to order/encourage others to their deaths?  Should a teacher / parent / mentor be held responsible for the actions of their charges?

 

(One of the reasons I *vastly* prefer TSL to K1 is because it asks some interesting questions: is it acceptable to do bad things (Malachor V) if your overall intention is good? (ending a bloody war) - see Luke considering murdering Kylo..) 

 

 

I liked that the callbacks to previous films are much more subtle than the plot retreads of TFA:  When I twigged Luke wasn't really fighting Kylo, all I could hear in my head was Alec Guinness saying "You can't win.  But there are alternatives to fighting".  Rey doesn't finish her training before leaving (she only had two of the three lessons Luke promised her, right?) to help her friends.  Anybody can be a hero, you don't have to be of noble birth - Rey is a nobody with the power to save the galaxy, just as Luke did as a former farmhand (before Empire made him Vader's son).  Luke's line about not being the Last Jedi just made me think of Yoda saying "there is another".

 

I liked that TLJ head-on answered a lot of my criticisms of TFA: Luke mentions that there has been 30 years of peace (so the whole original trilogy conflict wasn't completely for nothing - I once joked with somebody that the First Order is called the First Order so that in the next trilogy the heros can fight the Second Order and so on), Snoke mocks Kylo for Rey matching him in combat, Snoke mocks Kylo for the mask and wanting to be Vader.  I liked that there were new ship designs like the bombers, as a direct counter to the giant Dreadnoughts.  (X-Wings and TIE Fighters being the only ships in TFA 30 years after ROTJ really annoyed me).  I like that they allude to the old tech being due to the Resistance having to sometimes scavenge old Rebel Alliance bases.

 

I really liked that Kylo actually has some philosophy to his actions, and isn't just Emo Kylo Ren from TFA.  I thought Adam Driver's performance vastly improved.

 

I thought some scenes were just beautifully shot.

 

 

All the being said...

 

The bad

The humour is way off.  In the original and prequel trilogy, the humans are playing it mostly straight, with most of the humour between them being quippy / sarcasm, as you imagine it might be in the middle of a conflict - with the slapstick comedy left to the droids.  Rogue One absolutely nailed this (and now that I think about it, so did TSL).

 

 

Some of the callbacks just don't work very well.  I'm sure Rian thought the super-fans would freak out with delight at his references, and imaged conversations like this:

 

Regular Fan: 'pfft. Luke milks a space cow?  WTF?'

Superfan 'Dood!  Luke loves blue milk!  It's in A New Hope!'

Regular Fan: 'pffft.  cloaking tech in Star Wars.  That's not a thing!'

Superfan: 'Dood! Captain Needa?! "No ship that small has a cloaking device"!'

 

Only the superfans hated those references too.

 

 

I just couldn't get why Rey was so mad with Luke for *thinking* about killing Kylo, but absolutely fine with Kylo *actually* killing a bunch of children.  I would have been fine with her wanting to redeem Kylo, if she hadn't got so pissy with Luke.  Also, Finn saying the word 'cops' really, really jarred me.

 

 

Overall though, I do want to see TLJ again, just as I wanted to see Rogue One again.  So I guess I liked it.  I don't ever feel the need to see TFA again, not because it was a terrible film, but because I don't feel I'll get any more out of it than I did the first time...

[Haveayap 127]

I know. I was the one who pointed that out in the first place. However that's not was your defense was, your defence was that:

 

Which in itself implies a one way mistreatment because you are perceived of being too negative.

 

So I ask you, where are you a Pariah?

 

It's clearly not here. This site has an overwhelming negative bias against TLJ and New Star Wars

 

I've never heard of Star Wars Hub, I just went there for the first time and I can't find those pro-Disney posts you're talking about?

 

Just look at these posts

 

Unless there is some hidden pro-Disney page I can't find on that facebook, where is it?

 

The star wars reddit has healthy discussions with both critiques of the film and people who like it, so it can't be there.

 

4chan is heavily against everything that is non-Lucas Star Wars, so I can't imagine you guys would be a pariah there.

 

So where are you a "pariah of the fanbase"?

Most of disneys content has been good in my opinion. The movies and games have been the only dissapointments. 

 

My biggest gripe with tlj is that it ignores all of the establsihed sw canon this far amd sort of makes me wonder why i even kept up to date with the canon sw universe if parts are already been disregarded by newer content. And that has what tlj has done. Its shat on everything released by disney thus far

[revan21 22]

Most of disneys content has been good in my opinion. The movies and games have been the only dissapointments. 

 

My biggest gripe with tlj is that it ignores all of the establsihed sw canon this far amd sort of makes me wonder why i even kept up to date with the canon sw universe if parts are already been disregarded by newer content. And that has what tlj has done. Its shat on everything released by disney thus far

This makes me curious. Can you give an example? I've been keeping up with Canon for the last 1,5 years now through YouTube (It's really hard to get comics where I live and I simply can't keep with reading the novels) and couldn't spot any major contradictions. The only thing I thought was wierd is how the whole "Poe is hothead and needs to learn" arc was already done in the Poe Dameron comic, but I guess that's because TLJ was already written before TFA came into cinemas and the comic was written. 

[Mutilator57 140]

Which in itself implies a one way mistreatment because you are perceived of being too negative.

Rather than relying on implication, let me just tell you: my defence had nothing to do with mistreatment. It was a general comment that while there was a lot of negativity *from both sides*, the pro-Disney forces (if I can call them that) cloaked their argument in this indignant malaise at being questioned. That's it. That's all my observation was. If you don't share it and it isn't obvious from the sources which I gave then we clearly have very different opinions, which is fine!

 

So I ask you, where are you a Pariah?

Perhaps pariah was too strong a word. More like shunned or scorned.

 

It's clearly not here. This site has an overwhelming negative bias against TLJ and New Star Wars

It might do now. However, just go back through the first page of TFA discussion; 4 or 5 of the comments are pretty positive. Of course, that's just a snapshot, but it feeds into my point about how our side of the argument has more support today, particularly because IMO, TLJ is an infinitely worse movie than TFA and more has happened under Disney's banner since then.

 

II've never heard of Star Wars Hub, I just went there for the first time and I can't find those pro-Disney posts you're talking about?

Just look at these posts

 

Unless there is some hidden pro-Disney page I can't find on that facebook, where is it?

If you're referring to comments left by the different people on the page then yes, quite a few support my point of view. If you actually go look at the posts of the page itself and by the content it shares, this is not the case. 

 

Here are some examples:

 

Observe the overwhelming love reacts indicating approval of a new RJ trilogy.

 

Here the page gleefully shares a 96% RT score of the movie

 

An article denouncing the 'toxic' fandom shared by the page (I tried to link it directly but couldn't get this one to cooperate but trust me, SW Hub did share it).

 

Again, can't link the page sharing the post but they definitely did. This time, they try to denounce the audience as manipulating the RT score.

 

A link to the page actually trying to justify the low RT score of the movie too.

 

The page expresses its amazement at the movie. Note the universality of the like and love reacts to the post.

 

Of course, we can all pick and choose our evidence but that's just what my experience has been.

 

The star wars reddit has healthy discussions with both critiques of the film and people who like it, so it can't be there.

 

4chan is heavily against everything that is non-Lucas Star Wars, so I can't imagine you guys would be a pariah there.

Refer to my comment above; I don't go to these sites so I can't comment on their fanbase, though I take your word for it.

 

In any event, I think I've said all that I need to

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I have to apologize for backing the racist/sexist/bigot media narrative from earlier. The media certainly does do that, but in reference to Star Wars, I think I am conflating specific interviews/interactions/comments, and building up an image in my mind of TLJ champions strawmanning the reasoning of TLJ detractors as frivolous, hypocritical, nonsensical and mean-spirited. Of course I hate when racist/sexist/bigot/homophobe is thrown around lightly, and yet here I am doing it myself!
"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." (Sorry Hassat, we have to cancel our short-lived social club).
 
I do remember reading an article very early on that specifically blamed the low fan rating of TLJ on RT as a "directed hate campaign" or "hacking the system", which attempted to erase any legitimate criticisms people have had. That may have been where this originated, but I should have known from the get go that even giving in to that would eat me up. I see Mutilator mentioned some of those above. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I regret and ask for forgiveness for any contributions I've made to aggravating this situation.

I just want to talk Star Wars, man! I don't mind disagreements, but I guess I'd rather try to find things we have in common rather than keep stoking the Disney Star Wars flames!

[Sith Holocron 2,473]

May I call for a temporary restriction of the posting video reviews?  If you can't explain in your own words your opinions of the TLJ - and in a calm and rational manner - perhaps you don't need to be in this thread.

 

If you can't do so in a calm and rational manner, we can enforce a timeout from this site for you.

[Haveayap 127]

I have to apologize for backing the racist/sexist/bigot media narrative from earlier. The media certainly does do that, but in reference to Star Wars, I think I am conflating specific interviews/interactions/comments, and building up an image in my mind of TLJ champions strawmanning the reasoning of TLJ detractors as frivolous, hypocritical, nonsensical and mean-spirited. Of course I hate when racist/sexist/bigot/homophobe is thrown around lightly, and yet here I am doing it myself!

"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." (Sorry Hassat, we have to cancel our short-lived social club).

 

I do remember reading an article very early on that specifically blamed the low fan rating of TLJ on RT as a "directed hate campaign" or "hacking the system", which attempted to erase any legitimate criticisms people have had. That may have been where this originated, but I should have known from the get go that even giving in to that would eat me up. I see Mutilator mentioned some of those above. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I regret and ask for forgiveness for any contributions I've made to aggravating this situation.

I just want to talk Star Wars, man! I don't mind disagreements, but I guess I'd rather try to find things we have in common rather than keep stoking the Disney Star Wars flames!

Some people act like there were no lead women or people of colour in the SW films before disney took over lol. They obviously forgot about Leia, Padme, Mace Windu, Lando.

 

 

This makes me curious. Can you give an example? I've been keeping up with Canon for the last 1,5 years now through YouTube (It's really hard to get comics where I live and I simply can't keep with reading the novels) and couldn't spot any major contradictions. The only thing I thought was wierd is how the whole "Poe is hothead and needs to learn" arc was already done in the Poe Dameron comic, but I guess that's because TLJ was already written before TFA came into cinemas and the comic was written. 

 

 

As someone who has most of the Disney released content, there are a lot of contradictions between themes and ideas that have been created in the Disney verse and the last Jedi. One example is that Poe Damions parents were rebel pilots which is why he's loyal to the resistance/rebellion, yet RJ completely disregards this when he makes Amilyn (who is portrayed quite differently to the other content she has appeared in) believe that Poe is a traitor even though she would have known his parents... like WOW...

 

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

Some people act like there were no lead women or people of colour in the SW films before disney took over lol. They obviously forgot about Leia, Padme, Mace Windu, Lando.

 

 

Yeah I get ya. What I was trying to explain is that I don't myself or others being strawmanned as a racist/sexist bigots, but didn't realize that the vast majority of people were not accusing that in the first place (rather a vitriolic minority).

 

There are however, still many accusations of being whiny, hypocritical fan boys being tossed around though. And lots of accusations of shilling for Disney. Still doesn't help. But I'll leave it at that.

 

Yeah I don't understand all these claims of "first instance of cultural diversity" in Star Wars either.

 

As someone who has most of the Disney released content, there are a lot of contradictions between themes and ideas that have been created in the Disney verse and the last Jedi. One example is that Poe Damions parents were rebel pilots which is why he's loyal to the resistance/rebellion, yet RJ completely disregards this when he makes Amilyn (who is portrayed quite differently to the other content she has appeared in) believe that Poe is a traitor even though she would have known his parents... like WOW...

This is another reminder that I've always liked peripheral Star Wars stories rather than the movies. Perhaps I should stick to those.

[sELFiNDUCEDcOMA 98]

The argument that TLJ is art and therefore its all subjective and therefore matters little if we like the film or not, in my opinion, is a nice superficial argument to dismiss how bad the film is and why we "haters" of the film and our opinions of it are unimportant. Sure, 1 person's opinion is subjective and (largely) is inconsequential. But a lot of people's "subjective" opinions matters a great deal.

 

I think Disney are worried about how bad the user (not critic) scores of the film are. They bought this IP for a lot of money, not so as to simply break even or generate a short-term profit from it -- where it stands at the moment, to be honest, I have no idea. It was part of a long-term sustained revenue for them generating 100x (if not way more) on what they paid for it. Publicly they aren't worried, internally I am certain they are looking at this seriously as to how viable the SW licence is now to them and what they can do about it going forward -- like hiring a new writer/director team to entrust the future of SW with. 

 

I'd like to also share another "subjective" observation with you. When I saw TLJ at the cinema, it was the first time in a long time that I saw people start getting up and leaving half-way through a film. They never returned. Mind you, this is a Star Wars film. On the film (finally) ending, only 1 person -- a young man -- was clapping and cheering like you normally expect at the end of a Star Wars film. He abruptly quit when he released he was alone, and not even his companions were clapping with him. Most, were sitting there in silence.

 

Sure, the film made money, but that was due to many people being mislead about how good the film was. How many went back for multiple viewings as SW fans tend to do? How many are going to bother to see the next SW film at the cinema, instead of waiting to see it later digitally and potentially for free? How many are going to buy the merchandise for a film they do not like? How many are going to want to buy media based on the expanded universe of TLJ or future SW films?

 

I think that these are all questions Disney would be asking.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Do you really want me to spell out 5 hours of arguments here?

Not to mention argumenting a lot already the other pages?

 

(And that other topic just exploded, don't got time to read all that now :/)

[revan21 22]

As someone who has most of the Disney released content, there are a lot of contradictions between themes and ideas that have been created in the Disney verse and the last Jedi. One example is that Poe Damions parents were rebel pilots which is why he's loyal to the resistance/rebellion, yet RJ completely disregards this when he makes Amilyn (who is portrayed quite differently to the other content she has appeared in) believe that Poe is a traitor even though she would have known his parents... like WOW...

well, we can't be really sure that Holdo met Poe's parents unless I missed something when searching for that. I think her suspicion is justified given the circumstances. Poe, in a way, is a traitor since he started a mutiny against her. But I also noticed how Holdo wasn't the oddbal was described to be in the Leia book. Maybe she canged as she got older? These things are the result of the movie being written so early into the Canon's lifespan. I doubt Disney cares much about those inconsistencies tho, since like 80% of the audience doesn't read the EU stuff. 

 

I'd like to also share another "subjective" observation with you. When I saw TLJ at the cinema, it was the first time in a long time that I saw people start getting up and leaving half-way through a film. They never returned. Mind you, this is a Star Wars film. On the film (finally) ending, only 1 person -- a young man -- was clapping and cheering like you normally expect at the end of a Star Wars film. He abruptly quit when he released he was alone, and not even his companions were clapping with him. Most, were sitting there in silence.

My experience was completely different. The whole cinema, kids and adults, enjoyed the movie to the point that it almost got obnoxious. 

[Sith Holocron 2,473]

Do you really want me to spell out 5 hours of arguments here?

Yes, as long as they are your own words. That's why I wrote what I wrote - and I didn't need to lean on someone else's video to do it either.

[DarthVarkor 384]

The argument that TLJ is art and therefore its all subjective and therefore matters little if we like the film or not, in my opinion, is a nice superficial argument to dismiss how bad the film is and why we "haters" of the film and our opinions of it are unimportant. Sure, 1 person's opinion is subjective and (largely) is inconsequential. But a lot of people's "subjective" opinions matters a great deal.

 

I'd have to disagree with you here. Just because a large group of people dislike/like something, doesn't lend it anymore merit than those who view otherwise. No one is (or should be saying) that your opinion matters less because you disagree. Sure, the more people that agree with you lends more credence to your belief that something is good or bad, but it doesn't make it fact. The same goes for those defending TLJ and saying "look at the Rotten Tomatoes score, look how many people agree with me". Although, I do agree that just stating a film is "art" as a counter argument to those who dislike it is also wrong to do. 

 

Also, it's worth noting that I am by no means a massive fan of TLJ. I personally believe that the good in it outweighs the bad, but I still have a LOT of problems with it.

 

(I'm assuming this is in response to my earlier post about all film being subjective. Apologies if I've misread this.)