Thinking of removing TSLRCM from the Workshop

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

Nobody should bloody well have to. 

It would be useful information; if it is more like Attila Total War, then Zbyl (Or another member of the mod team) could reupload the mod on the workshop and people could switch with no meaningful detriment to users and HH doesn't have to deal with Steam any more if he doesn't want to - everybody wins.

 

If it is, however, more like XCOM 2 then please see my comments above on why the mod should not be taken down.

[Snigaroo 114]

In short, we have all the elements that are needed to create perfect protest under the users. If you had written a blog post and circulated that through the popular subreddits and the KotOR subreddit, for example, the media would have immediately picked up on that. Loads of users who aren't involved in KotOR and its mods would have been informed of your cause.

 

Typically such posts would not be allowed on /r/kotor, but if it would prevent you from removing the mod from the Workshop, Hassat, I'm prepared to permit an exception and allow you to post your criticism of this system on the subreddit.

[Haveayap 127]

Actually no, I don't think it will be. That's actually a major problem with using Steam Workshop with Xcom 2. If a mod author pulls their mod from the Workshop, then the mod is automatically uninstalled/deleted on your end by Steam, and then any saves made using that mod are broken as the game refuses to load them without the missing "DLC". If this happens with the Workshop version of TSLRCM as well (the auto-deleting part), you are going to break a lot of people's games.

Agh... I said this because I know people late last year were having issues with AOE 2 HD and City skylines as incompatible mods were being removed from the workshop but remained in the game

 

 

And this is your users' and fans' fault... How?

 

And this is your users' and fans' fault... How?

 

I can understand your sentiment, but again: this is just about the worst way possible that you could go at it.

 

Instead of explaining to the people through a blog post and/or a petition why this bothers you, instead you decide to take something something that thousands of people hold dear hostage and threaten to take it away. Are you hoping to scare 200.000 something subscribers into following your cause? Do you think that is an ethical thing to do?

What exactly do you hope will come from this? Because the only way I see this end is by casual users being punished.

 

It's as if I shoot a random person because my boss fired me: Wrong tactic, wrong target.

 

I think you are mis-interpreting HH, I agree with HH completely, why support something when they treat you like crap? If steam users want the mod, they can come to Moddb or deadlysteam (Or where ever else its uploaded) to download it manually.

[1Leonard 134]

I think you are mis-interpreting HH, I agree with HH completely, why support something when they treat you like crap? If steam users want the mod, they can come to Moddb or deadlysteam (Or where ever else its uploaded) to download it manually.

Could you perhaps explain why you think I'm misinterpreting HH?

 

FWIF: I do not think getting a ban for calling someone a "cocksucker" is "being treated like crap".

[Xuul 224]

I've been lurking in this thread, as usual, and I think it might be worth me putting in my 2 cents.

 

Removing TSLRCM would be a big mistake, especially for the reasons you listed. 

 

While I can understand that this is a inconvenience to you, and I agree that Valve is very poor at customer relations even at the best of times, taking the mod off Steam will not help you in any way. 

 

Removing the mod from Steam will not effect Valve, but it will harm the users. It comes across as petty to hold your mod hostage to get what you want.

 

Obviously, the choice is yours, but I just want it to be know that I am VERY much against this. It leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth as well. 

[milestails 264]

I agree with Xuul.

[cerberusiv 3]

The  real issue Hassat Hunter needs to decide here is whether he wants to walk away from Steam over what they propose to do (assuming they go ahead, which is likely).  No "if you do this I will walk and take this mod with me".  As has been said, that is not likely to influence their decision in the slightest.

 

If Hassat decides he wants nothing to do with Steam then the people who wrote and look after TSLRCM (and M4-78 EP since there is no sense in leaving that on Steam without TSLRCM) need to decide what happens with the Steam versions of these mods.

 

That's what I see this is actually about.

 

Over to you Hassat.

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

Then there is the issue of the idea that this move will hurt Steam.

 

Quite simply, it is very unlikely.

 

TSL is minor on Steam. It is very doubtful that taking the mod off the workshop will affect their income in any drastic way.

 

If someone buys TSL for the Restored Content Mod (through Deadlystream or ModDB or Steam), there is no reason for them not to buy the Steam version if they frequently use Steam. The hosting location of the mod is not going to affect that platform it is purchased on (be it 4CD, Steam or GOG).

 

I agree completely with this. Steam has thousands of games; having less people excited to buy one particular game (which, though it might be becoming more popular, is nowhere near one of the biggest games there, I believe) would almost certainly go unnoticed.

 

If you want to teach Steam a lesson... that won't do it.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Well, mulled it over with Aspyr, who made a bunch of good arguments why not to do this, so in the end I guess I'll just have to bend over to Valve and be miserable.

:/

[Fair Strides 508]

[Edit]: As an addendum/afterthought:

I can understand HH not wanting to deal with Steam (Although we've yet to hear back from HH on the WinAuth matter; it's entirely possible HH simply didn't see that). However I think that removing the workshop mod will punish the wrong people and will not meaningfully affect change. I am not familiar with how the steam workshop works; So is there any way to simply transfer authorship to Zbyl or someone else involved in the TSLRCM project?

Speaking from experience with KSE, no. At most, you can mark someone as a contributor, but they won't have any real access/edit privileges.

 

Well, mulled it over with Aspyr, who made a bunch of good arguments why not to do this, so in the end I guess I'll just have to bend over to Valve and be miserable.

:/

 

I'm glad you at least listened to Aspyr and not all of your friends or comrades that are involved in the community, Hassat...

 

This issue seems to be resolved, but I just want to try to give a little bit of advice here:

 

When you (your name, face, and/or image) are public and publicly known, especially for something like TSLRCM or building a game, you take on a certain amount of Public Relations duties and (though you might not agree) are given some responsibilities to the public in the process. For example, if you make and upload a mod to the public, you're seen as being responsible for supporting that mod unless and until you pass that responsibility off to someone else. If you make a video game, you're responsible for releasing patches to fix issues. And the same goes for almost anything programming-related, like my modding tools.

 

And though most seem to forget that everyone's human, when you're public, you're constantly scrutinized and observed for your behavior. People like their celebrities or popular people to be upstanding guys/girls, and when they do something bad or get angry, everyone gets to hear about it because "that's not how they're supposed to act!"

 

From just about any perspective, it looked like you were mixing personal matters with your role as a creator/maintainer of TSLRCM, and it never ends well when you mix personal and "business" matters...

 

But I'm glad you decided not to do this in the end, Hassat Hunter. I know you're better than that.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

I'm glad you at least listened to Aspyr and not all of your friends or comrades that are involved in the community, Hassat...

Heh, I probably deserve your little stab at me there.

 

Actually, not sure where you're from, but here they love a good scandal. And some of the most popular Dutchies used to be (or still are) criminals at the moment.

 

(PS. Being PR on Steam can be a royal pain)

[Fair Strides 508]

Heh, I probably deserve your little stab at me there.

 

(PS. Being PR on Steam can be a royal pain)

Little hard to not do the jab.

 

As to the PS, why do you think I have Menirz and Pazuzu156 doing the Steam KSE stuff?

[Hassat Hunter 571]

So I guess Zbyl might hate me after all, that's why I'm the uploader...

[Fair Strides 508]

Well, to be fair, Menirz had uploaded KSE shortly after Filefront died, and I just didn't want to fight. So we agreed that he'd be the Steam maintainer.

[PirateSimi 0]

Using the GoG-version of KOTOR2 and having not even tried out Steam Workshop yet, I personally couldn't care less.

But it's not the enduser's fault, that some dickheads at Valve are acting like asses (forgive my french). Haters gonna hate, you know, don't get worked up about it too much. Isn't it in the end all about for how many people you're the heroes for making such awesome mods and improving their enjoyment of these grand old games?
If it isn't too much effort, I'd say leave it there, can't do any harm. If it's too much trouble for you, take it down. Mods should be fun, not trouble.

[Salk 363]

The community here brought valid points of discussion.

 

Personally, I do not like Steam. I am a customer because in some cases, it is either like it or lump it. When I do have the alternative (GOG or playing my games off Steam) I systematically take it.

 

I pretty much hate the idea that some of my games can not even be patched manually anymore.

 

Not to mention the barrage of commercial I am to submit to each time I log in. 

 

I do not even agree with those that say that HH's action would have been seen as petty. Because if you only see things in this kind of perspective then every civil initiative taken to express dissatisfaction (and certainly pulling something out of a place where you feel unwelcome is a civil protest) is "petty". In short, despite the usual "I understand why you feel like this" people that criticize HH's initial decision do not really do. I call it gaining a consciousness.

 

There is a process of assimilation that makes us think that further tighetenings to our past freedom or rights is acceptable because of what you "gain" in return. But let's take a look at it: what did users really gain from Steam?

 

The way I see we gained another powerful, insensitive corporation (they all are, after all - psychopathy is the diagnosis of their behavior) that is so successful at imposing its dominion over an always larger base of game users and turning high profits from it that they no longer bother to create video games anymore (Half Life 3, anyone?). And this in exchange of what, exactly? An "easier" way to play games? Or being part of a new "community"? I am really trying hard to see what real benefits Steam brought to us so I am ready to listen.

 

The issue at hand here is to think that there is a way to hurt Steam without hurting its user base. That is not really possible.

 

The only counter argument that makes sense to me is about the ineffectiveness of an non-concerted effort and the fear that we are now past the point of no return, as the uprising against HH's decision even here at deadly stream seems to suggest.

 

Persoanlly, I will keep downloading modifications from their own websites, as long as they exist.

 

Lastly, thank you HH and all you modders (including those who disagree with my view, of course) for giving us a little more freedom than some wish we had.

[DeadMan 103]

 

 

if you make and upload a mod to the public, you're seen as being responsible for supporting that mod unless and until you pass that responsibility off to someone else. If you make a video game, you're responsible for releasing patches to fix issues.

Bad analogy. Video game developers are paid for their work, and they sell their games to users. Modders are not. We are sharing our work out of goodwill and we don't owe anyone anything.

'Casual' users may see us this way, but let's be honest: who cares about them?! They are not part of the community. Not the active part at least.

[GrandmasterArcturus 10]

Gee, it seems like all the people that want the mod to stay on Steam have ulterior motives. Maybe you losers are just biased and need to stop using a horrible service like Steam. GoG is better in every aspect anyway.

 

HH, I kind of wish you had stuck to your guns and I have a good reason for this. Honestly, TSLRCM has been in production for over 10 years to get to the point it is at now. From Team Gizka to the TSLRCM Team. If people really gave any kind of a damn about the mod then they would have been following it a long time before now. Any of you that say otherwise are just annoyed that your game possibly won't work and refuse to put in the small amount of effort to get the mod from somewhere other than Steam and install it yourself. You people sicken me because you are so willing let corporations stick it up you butt and you apparently enjoy it. Steam is just another form of DRM we have to put up with because you people are so addicted to its ease of use. You people are going to be the ruination of this world because of your addiction to ease of use.

[Guest]

Gee, it seems like all the people that want the mod to stay on Steam have ulterior motives. Maybe you losers are just biased and need to stop using a horrible service like Steam. GoG is better in every aspect anyway.

 

HH, I kind of wish you had stuck to your guns and I have a good reason for this. Honestly, TSLRCM has been in production for over 10 years to get to the point it is at now. From Team Gizka to the TSLRCM Team. If people really gave any kind of a damn about the mod then they would have been following it a long time before now. Any of you that say otherwise are just annoyed that your game possibly won't work and refuse to put in the small amount of effort to get the mod from somewhere other than Steam and install it yourself. You people sicken me because you are so willing let corporations stick it up you butt and you apparently enjoy it. Steam is just another form of DRM we have to put up with because you people are so addicted to its ease of use. You people are going to be the ruination of this world because of your addiction to ease of use.

 

GoG is better but don't be so condescending and blatantly uselessly aggressive. 

[GrandmasterArcturus 10]

GoG is better but don't be so condescending and blatantly uselessly aggressive. 

I'll be as aggressive as I damn well please with all these people that are just wanting to trample over HH because they want the mod their way and aren't willing to do anything else use it. Forget those losers, they don't deserve the mod.

 

Look, I'm sorry if I sound "aggressive" but to be honest why the hell should anyone care what the Steam users want? Like I said before, if they really cared about getting the mod, then they would have been following from the very beginning when Team Gizka was working on it.

Edited March 5, 2016 by GrandmasterArcturus

[1Leonard 134]

I do not even agree with those that say that HH's action would have been seen as petty. Because if you only see things in this kind of perspective then every civil initiative taken to express dissatisfaction (and certainly pulling something out of a place where you feel unwelcome is a civil protest) is "petty"

If you look at the Steam discussion you can already see the first reactions of the users themselves, it being received as petty is not just a random guess but there was already objective evidence for it. Furthermore as I explained earlier the way that HH tried to conduct this protest was not conducted bottom-up but rather from the top-down with him deciding on a thing without the users being informed of the exact motivation. If we look at a similar protest (2012 blackout in protest of PIPA and SOPA) you see a different dynamic with the users actually being informed on the how, why, and what they can do to stop the proposed rules. None of these elements were present in this case.

 

Lastly, I don't think anyone here would hold it against HH if he did remove it, we al know the hard work he put into it and he is one of the current caretakers of this mod. However, I also gave several arguments about why I believe this protest would not be effective and even work against him.

 

To suggest that the "uprising" as you put it on this forum means that users here are in Steam's grasp and/or can't think for themselves is not arguing in good faith. 

 

In short, despite the usual "I understand why you feel like this" people that criticize HH's initial decision do not really do. I call it gaining a consciousness.

I don't get how you come to this conclusion? It's a jump in logic and seems to come down to: "If you don't agree with this you don't understand it, therefore you're wrong." 

 

 

'Casual' users may see us this way, but let's be honest: who cares about them?! They are not part of the community. Not the active part at least.

I do. Quite frankly, everyone should. The way to keep an online community healthy is not by shutting people out who aren't as experienced as you are. The KotOR modding community is over ten years old and has been through several places (Lucasfiles, Lucasforums, Starwarsknights, kotorfiles, DeadlyStream) and it is still vibrant, with new mods and even new tools coming out.  That's a very rare thing as there are games with modding tools included which don't get nearly as much mods (if at all) as we do, and we don't even have official tools!

 

Everyone who reads this, ask yourselves: ten years ago, were you part of the "elite hardcore gamers" or were you "casual"? Maybe you were too young. Maybe you didn't know about the game or its modding community. How did you start modding? Did you follow a tutorial, or did you already know everything there was to know about the way the game reads files, skinning, modelling, scripting. The reason why I believe a forum like this should exist is both showing of your work and helping others with theirs. If that was not the case, then why do we have the option to create threads with questions about modding? Why not just create a central release thread for everyone to release their work and call it a day without further interaction?

 

Because that would be detrimental to this community, that's why. I don't know about you, but I'd like to see this community thrive for five, ten, twenty years more. The way to do that is not by taking an elitist approach of us versus them and looking down on people who don't know as much as you do. Rather, we should reach out and at least give new users the same information we got when we began.

 

Who knows, perhaps the creator of a new total conversion mod, Malachor Overhaul mod, or Ithorian party member mod might be in there waiting for their time to shine.

[GrandmasterArcturus 10]

If you look at the Steam discussion you can already see the first reactions of the users themselves, it being received as petty is not just a random guess but there was already objective evidence for it. Furthermore as I explained earlier the way that HH tried to conduct this protest was not conducted bottom-up but rather from the top-down with him deciding on a thing without the users being informed of the exact motivation. If we look at a similar protest (2012 blackout in protest of PIPA and SOPA) you see a different dynamic with the users actually being informed on the how, why, and what they can do to stop the proposed rules. None of these elements were present in this case.

 

Lastly, I don't think anyone here would hold it against HH if he did remove it, we al know the hard work he put into it and he is one of the current caretakers of this mod. However, I also gave several arguments about why I believe this protest would not be effective and even work against him.

 

To suggest that the "uprising" as you put it on this forum means that users here are in Steam's grasp and/or can't think for themselves is not arguing in good faith. 

 

I don't get how you come to this conclusion? It's a jump in logic and seems to come down to: "If you don't agree with this you don't understand it, therefore you're wrong." 

 

 

I do. Quite frankly, everyone should. The way to keep an online community healthy is not by shutting people out who aren't as experienced as you are. The KotOR modding community is over ten years old and has been through several places (Lucasfiles, Lucasforums, Starwarsknights, kotorfiles, DeadlyStream) and it is still vibrant, with new mods and even new tools coming out.  That's a very rare thing as there are games with modding tools included which don't get nearly as much mods (if at all) as we do, and we don't even have official tools!

 

Everyone who reads this, ask yourselves: ten years ago, were you part of the "elite hardcore gamers" or were you "casual"? Maybe you were too young. Maybe you didn't know about the game or its modding community. How did you start modding? Did you follow a tutorial, or did you already know everything there was to know about the way the game reads files, skinning, modelling, scripting. The reason why I believe a forum like this should exist is both showing of your work and helping others with theirs. If that was not the case, then why do we have the option to create threads with questions about modding? Why not just create a central release thread for everyone to release their work and call it a day without further interaction?

 

Because that would be detrimental to this community, that's why. I don't know about you, but I'd like to see this community thrive for five, ten, twenty years more. The way to do that is not by taking an elitist approach of us versus them and looking down on people who don't know as much as you do. Rather, we should reach out and at least give new users the same information we got when we began.

 

Who knows, perhaps the creator of a new total conversion mod, Malachor Overhaul mod, or Ithorian party member mod might be in there waiting for their time to shine.

I asked myself the question you asked me to ask myself and the answer is...(drumroll)...Yes I was. All the way back during the time we started out at Lucasforums and had Team Gizka making their attempt at the mod. And my response is still the same, if you really cared about the mod then you would have been around back then, so we don't owe you anything and more than that you owe us for bringing you the mod. If Hassat Hunter wants to turn away the Steam users that obviously don't care unless they can get it easily (which going by your past posts in this very topic sir, you are one of them) then I say more power to him. Turn away the people that don't care and maybe they will learn that you have to respect people that help you out.

 

Also, what it seems to me you are trying to say is that not having the mod on the Steam Workshop is equivalent to not having a place to talk about modding for this series. That is complete and utter BS. Why do you think Deadly Stream even exists? If the mod isn't on Steam then those unwashed heathens can come here and become enlightened.

[1Leonard 134]

I asked myself the question you asked me to ask myself and the answer is...(drumroll)...Yes I was. All the way back during the time we started out at Lucasforums and had Team Gizka making their attempt at the mod. And my response is still the same, if you really cared about the mod then you would have been around back then, so we don't owe you anything and more than that you owe us for bringing you the mod. If Hassat Hunter wants to turn away the Steam users that obviously don't care unless they can get it easily (which going by your past posts in this very topic sir, you are one of them) then I say more power to him. Turn away the people that don't care and maybe they will learn that you have to respect people that help you out.

Oh wow.

 

I've been around since before Team-Gizka started and spent my days refreshing the page hoping for a new update. I released my first mod (which was nonsense) under a different account in 2006: a remodeled Zabrak pc head which got absolutely blasted, but I learned a lot doing it, and had fun. Don't presume to know people just because you read a couple of their posts. 

 

Furthermore, TSLRCM has not been in production for "over ten years", the idea of restoring the cut content has been, but the first release of TSLRCM was, what, 2010? 2009? No one here presumes to "own" HH for sticking with him and the rest of the team for all that time and tell him what to do and not to do, they merely have the freedom to advice him, speak their mind and agree or disagree, which apparently is something you have a problem with.

 

Honestly, your few posts here make you come across as a vile human being. If you get worked up to the point of calling other people losers for not agreeing with you, you should probably take a break. Go outside. Have a run. Whatever floats your boat.

[GrandmasterArcturus 10]

Oh wow.

 

I've been around since before Team-Gizka started and spent my days refreshing the page hoping for a new update. I released my first mod (which was nonsense) under a different account in 2006: a remodeled Zabrak pc head which got absolutely blasted, but I learned a lot doing it, and had fun. Don't presume to know people just because you read a couple of their posts. 

 

Furthermore, TSLRCM has not been in production for "over ten years", the idea of restoring the cut content has been, but the first release of TSLRCM was, what, 2010? 2009? No one here presumes to "own" HH for sticking with him and the rest of the team for all that time and tell him what to do and not to do, they merely have the freedom to advice him, speak their mind and agree or disagree, which apparently is something you have a problem with.

 

Honestly, your few posts here make you come across as a vile human being. If you get worked up to the point of calling other people losers for not agreeing with you, you should probably take a break. Go outside. Have a run. Whatever floats your boat.

I don't have a problem with people speaking their mind, but I do have a problem with people thinking they deserve something like this mod when the first they learn about is only because they bought the game because they saw The Force Awakens. I just think that if someone really cared about having the mod they would have known about to get it long before the game showed up on Steam. I have no animosity toward anyone and I apologize for coming across "vile" as you put it. That wasn't my intention. My intention was, like I said, to point that despite their protestations over on Steam I doubt many people over there would really care because they obviously haven't been following the mod that long.

 

In other words, keep it on Steam or remove it. Either way won't make any difference in the long run. If people want the mod they will find it whether it's on Steam, Moddb or here.

[Salk 363]

 If you look at the Steam discussion you can already see the first reactions of the users themselves, it being received as petty is not just a random guess but there was already objective evidence for it. Furthermore as I explained earlier the way that HH tried to conduct this protest was not conducted bottom-up but rather from the top-down with him deciding on a thing without the users being informed of the exact motivation.

I did mention how I believe his decision would be ineffective, starting with the fact that is not concerted and that it is, like you fairly put it, from the top down.

 

Honestly though, I would personally not care that much about the reaction of the Steam users base. They'd not be cut off from using the mod. People that expect to be spoon fed and take people's "modding service" for granted (and of course, all the better when it is free like in this and many other cases) do not gain my sympathy.

 

Steam does not need TSLRCM? True, but TSLRCM does not need Steam either. It was very popular and critically acclaimed way before Steam. People that cared about playing TSL on PC and had an interesting in modding knew of this project already.

 

 

However, I also gave several arguments about why I believe this protest would not be effective and even work against him.

 

Your most recurring argument seemed to me was the fact that Steam's users would think HH pulled TSLRCM off Steam because of a petty vindication. That is not a very strong argument in my book.

 

 

 

To suggest that the "uprising" as you put it on this forum means that users here are in Steam's grasp and/or can't think for themselves is not arguing in good faith.

 

And where did I suggest that? 

 

 

I don't get how you come to this conclusion? It's a jump in logic and seems to come down to: "If you don't agree with this you don't understand it, therefore you're wrong."

 

I do not value the "I understand how you might feel"-premise. If someone truly understands what it means to be dismissed as a second class person, I find hard to believe they'd promote restraint.