Thinking of removing TSLRCM from the Workshop

[1Leonard 134]

I don't have a problem with people speaking their mind, but I do have a problem with people thinking they deserve something like this mod when the first they learn about is only because they bought the game because they saw The Force Awakens. I just think that if someone really cared about having the mod they would have known about to get it long before the game showed up on Steam. I have no animosity toward anyone and I apologize for coming across "vile" as you put it. That wasn't my intention. My intention was, like I said, to point that despite their protestations over on Steam I doubt many people over there would really care because they obviously haven't been following the mod that long.

So you said, and I already showed you that your hypothesis is incorrect since I, a Steam user (and GOG user as well btw), have been around for almost as long as the KotOR modding scene has. Could it possibly be that there are more users like me on Steam that enjoy the Restored Content Mod being posted there but have also followed the creation of it since its inception?

 

What if someone was eight when the game launched and only just heard about it and its mods because of the recent rerelease on Steam and different platforms? Are they then not allowed to have an opinion because of factors outside of their own control? What if someone just didn't know the game existed back then but is now enjoying it immensely? Or if they only heard about the possibilities of modding just now? Are you seriously suggesting to just say: "Well then, sucks to be you." and leave it at that? Like I argued before, such an approach would be detrimental to this community. Any community.

 

You say it's "obvious" that users on Steam have not followed this mod for that long. Where do you get that information? You jumped to conclusions judging me, and you jump to conclusions judging them.

 

 

 

Your most recurring argument seemed to me was the fact that Steam's users would think HH pulled TSLRCM off Steam because of a petty vindication. That is not a very strong argument in my book.

Now you're misrepresenting my arguments as being situated around a singular thought "It would be petty". That's not true at all, I understand where HH is coming from but I believe his proposed action to be an ineffective one, I have even given an alternative way that HH could have followed, illustrating why his proposed action would not lead to his desired outcome. Besides this, I have repeatedly tried to explain why the thought process of us versus them and they are not real fans is wrong and why I believe that kinds of rhetoric to be bad for KotOR modding in general.

 

 

 

And where did I suggest that? 

The only counter argument that makes sense to me is about the ineffectiveness of an non-concerted effort and the fear that we are now past the point of no return, as the uprising against HH's decision even here at deadly stream seems to suggest.

[GrandmasterArcturus 10]

So you said, and I already showed you that your hypothesis is incorrect since I, a Steam user (and GOG user as well btw), have been around for almost as long as the KotOR modding scene has. Could it possibly be that there are more users like me on Steam that enjoy the Restored Content Mod being posted there but have also followed the creation of it since its inception?

 

What if someone was eight when the game launched and only just heard about it and its mods because of the recent rerelease on Steam and different platforms? Are they then not allowed to have an opinion because of factors outside of their own control? What if someone just didn't know the game existed back then but is now enjoying it immensely? Or if they only heard about the possibilities of modding just now? Are you seriously suggesting to just say: "Well then, sucks to be you." and leave it at that? Like I argued before, such an approach would be detrimental to this community. Any community.

 

You say it's "obvious" that users on Steam have not followed this mod for that long. Where do you get that information? You jumped to conclusions judging me, and you jump to conclusions judging them.

 

 

 

Now you're misrepresenting my arguments as being situated around a singular thought "It would be petty". That's not true at all, I understand where HH is coming from but I believe his proposed action to be an ineffective one, I have even given an alternative way that HH could have followed, illustrating why his proposed action would not lead to his desired outcome. Besides this, I have repeatedly tried to explain why the thought process of us versus them and they are not real fans is wrong and why I believe that kinds of rhetoric to be bad for KotOR modding in general.

I say it's obvious that they have not followed the mod for that long because if they had they would have supported Hassat's decision because they would know that they can get the mod elsewhere and don't have to deal with Steam and all of the its DRM BS. The fact that you couldn't figure that out leads me to believe you aren't being entirely truthful in your posts. I think you just want to come on here and whine so your mod doesn't get taken away. I don't care if you want to do that or not. It isn't my decision to remove the mod from Steam. Btw, it is very much us vs them since they refuse to back away from the DRM that is known as Steam. We are trying make things better by showing people that Steam isn't all that great and they shouldn't support it as much as they do. They are trying to cling to the easy way of doing things. You know who else does that? The RIAA and MPAA and they are causing a stagnation of all creativity in movies by forcing BS copyright laws down our throats through lobbying. Yeah, I just compared you to the RIAA and MPAA, have fun being in their company.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

It's funny how when you do a ton of work for free and release it as a product, people feel they are entitled to it.

 

I worked on a comparatively small part of the mod, and I spent 6 weeks, at least 8 hours a day, for absolutely nothing. A game design intern (the lowest on the game development totem pole) would have gotten at least $3,000 for that work. Now imagine how much work Zbyl, Stoney, Hassat Hunter should have made...

 

So all this work, for no compensation, and now suddenly everyone else is entitled to play this mod by downloading it however they want, and we have to make it available to them on their terms, or else.

 

Steam in a nutshell.

[Salk 368]

1Leonard,

 

HH should have pulled TSLRCM making it clear that the decision was made due to how Steam dealt with him on a human level.

 

He has all my sympathy for feeling abused by yet another corporative decision because that is how I felt (abused) when Steam came into play, controlling the distribution of software patches/updates to enforce retention and killing the second hand market by forcing to register a game to your account. Just to name the two biggest issues I personally have.

 

Also what VP is saying above makes perfect sense.

[1Leonard 134]

I say it's obvious that they have not followed the mod for that long because if they had they would have supported Hassat's decision because they would know that they can get the mod elsewhere and don't have to deal with Steam and all of the its DRM BS. The fact that you couldn't figure that out leads me to believe you aren't being entirely truthful in your posts. I think you just want to come on here and whine so your mod doesn't get taken away.

There you go again with your assumption BS:

 

 

I explained earlier that I like the fact that I can install the mods to the workshop folder, delete it, and have the game immediately reverted to vanilla. Do I like it enough to force HH to do whatever? No, and I never forced him to do anything, I merely adviced. If you feel I did force or threaten him I implore you to find that post and send it to me.

 

 

So all this work, for no compensation, and now suddenly everyone else is entitled to play this mod by downloading it however they want, and we have to make it available to them on their terms, or else.

 

Steam in a nutshell.

I don't disagree with you, neither do I disagree with the gripes HH has. But I think that the method (figuratively holding your mod hostage) might not be the best one.

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

I dunno about you guys, but ten years ago I hadn't heard of KotOR... so to expect me to have supported the mod ten years ago seems... unfair.

 

I use the 4CD version.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I don't disagree with you, neither do I disagree with the gripes HH has. But I think that the method (figuratively holding your mod hostage) might not be the best one.

 

Oh we've certainly reached a point of no return. Can't remove it without people becoming angry. I agree on that point. It's an issue of I personally want to remove it from the Workshop, but we realistically can't.

 

Could you clarify your point of us figuratively holding the mod hostage though? It would still be available here, and on Nexus, and on Moddb. I see it not as a hostage situation, but more like we were considering closing shop in a popular part of town. There's nothing stopping them from going to another location, except the lack of convenience.

[1Leonard 134]

I dunno about you guys, but ten years ago I hadn't heard of KotOR... so to expect me to have supported the mod ten years ago seems... unfair.

 

I use the 4CD version.

Only reason I know of KotOR is because my father gave it to me for Christmas in 2004 because he liked Star Wars. Also I have both KotOR and TSL on every platform imaginable 

 

 

 

Oh we've certainly reached a point of no return. Can't remove it without people becoming angry. I agree on that point. It's an issue of I personally want to, but we can't.

 

Could you clarify your point of us figuratively holding the mod hostage though? It would still be available here, and on Nexus, and on Moddb. I see it not as a hostage situation, but more like we were considering closing shop in a popular part of town.

Excuse the colorful language. I meant the general attitude: "I'm going to do something you don't like because of something outside of your control, if you don't want that to happen I suggest you contact Steam". It seems counterproductive to scare your users into following your cause, without really explaining yourself why they should follow you. But that's just my opinion.

[Fair Strides 509]

'Casual' users may see us this way, but let's be honest: who cares about them?! They are not part of the community. Not the active part at least.

Ummm.... Me, and many people at the KotOR Sub-reddit?

 

I don't know about you, but I deal with lots of emails and comments and questions from... wait for it... n00bs and "casual" people (*gasp*)... about how to do something with KSE, how to fix this or that bug, and even stuff about K1R.

 

And because I have the (apparently rare and abnormal) ability to care about my mod's or tool's support and use, I take that oh-so-precious time out of my day (God forbid that should happen) to answer the most basic questions, or explaining how part of the game, tool, or mod works, even though that was covered countless times in FAQs and Read-mes. And I can't count how many times I've had to walk people through archiving/packaging files...

 

But by your logic, I should have just ignored them or sent back a message saying "Well, sucks to be you."

 

Gee, it seems like all the people that want the mod to stay on Steam have ulterior motives. Maybe you losers are just biased and need to stop using a horrible service like Steam. GoG is better in every aspect anyway.

 

If people really gave any kind of a damn about the mod then they would have been following it a long time before now.

 

Any of you that say otherwise are just annoyed that your game possibly won't work and refuse to put in the small amount of effort to get the mod from somewhere other than Steam and install it yourself.

 

You people sicken me because you are so willing let corporations stick it up you butt and you apparently enjoy it.

 

Steam is just another form of DRM we have to put up with because you people are so addicted to its ease of use.

 

You people are going to be the ruination of this world because of your addiction to ease of use.

I only use Steam so I can game with several of my friends; I could care less about ease of use. So excuse me for staying close to my friends.

 

I was only 10, had no PC, no internet, and was still a year away from owning the first game on an XBox. Guess I didn't give a crap and am not worthy to have been a part of the modding community it came from?

 

I don't even use the Steam version of TSL or the Workshop, so you're wrong there. I just happen to understand HH's view and yet not come to the same conclusion.

 

Or people barely use the service except with friends and could care less about the corporation behind it? *looks in the mirror*

 

And just like the serial keys when I install a game, I think I'll handle it just fine. Certainly isn't going to kill me.

 

Well, I guess I'd better start planning the Apocolypse with my friends then. After all, if you're going to cause it, might as well have planned it.

 

Lastly, I don't think anyone here would hold it against HH if he did remove it, we al know the hard work he put into it and he is one of the current caretakers of this mod. However, I also gave several arguments about why I believe this protest would not be effective and even work against him.

 

I do. Quite frankly, everyone should. The way to keep an online community healthy is not by shutting people out who aren't as experienced as you are. The KotOR modding community is over ten years old and has been through several places (Lucasfiles, Lucasforums, Starwarsknights, kotorfiles, DeadlyStream) and it is still vibrant, with new mods and even new tools coming out.  That's a very rare thing as there are games with modding tools included which don't get nearly as much mods (if at all) as we do, and we don't even have official tools!

 

I don't know about you, but I'd like to see this community thrive for five, ten, twenty years more. The way to do that is not by taking an elitist approach of us versus them and looking down on people who don't know as much as you do. Rather, we should reach out and at least give new users the same information we got when we began.

 

I agree with everything you just said, 1Leonard. Except that I wouldn't agree with HH removing TSLRCM based on a personal injustice. If it was done to him as a TSLRCM member or as a modder, I'd agree, but it was done to him as a person, so that makes it personal.

 

Honestly though, I would personally not care that much about the reaction of the Steam users base. They'd not be cut off from using the mod. People that expect to be spoon fed and take people's "modding service" for granted (and of course, all the better when it is free like in this and many other cases) do not gain my sympathy.

 

Steam does not need TSLRCM? True, but TSLRCM does not need Steam either. It was very popular and critically acclaimed way before Steam. People that cared about playing TSL on PC and had an interesting in modding knew of this project already.

 

Your most recurring argument seemed to me was the fact that Steam's users would think HH pulled TSLRCM off Steam because of a petty vindication. That is not a very strong argument in my book.

 

I do not value the "I understand how you might feel"-premise. If someone truly understands what it means to be dismissed as a second class person, I find hard to believe they'd promote restraint.

So one group of fans/users is suddenly so much less important than the others? And I hate to break it to you, but a lot of people these days like to be spoon-fed, so you're running out of options for good company.

 

Since when did you have to be interested in modding to want a patch that fixes the game?

 

??? Last I checked, the argument from HH went like this: "Steam screwed me over with my trading and when I complained and called them names, they banned me. Join me when I remove TSLRCM from the Workshop to strike a blow against the corporation!"... How is that not petty vindication, man?!

 

Hate to break the news to you again, but just because two or more people experience the same thing does not mean they will both arrive at the same conclusion/understanding/viewpoint... But if I didn't agree, I must not have understood at all (brings back such fun memories of my dad, but the only difference is that you're probably not drunk)

 

I say it's obvious that they have not followed the mod for that long because if they had they would have supported Hassat's decision because they would know that they can get the mod elsewhere and don't have to deal with Steam and all of the its DRM BS.

 

Btw, it is very much us vs them since they refuse to back away from the DRM that is known as Steam. We are trying make things better by showing people that Steam isn't all that great and they shouldn't support it as much as they do. They are trying to cling to the easy way of doing things.

Again, people won't always arrive at the same conclusions, even if they have the same experiences.

 

So people using and sticking with what they're used to using and are comfortable with automatically means they're pro-DRM and ready to go battle the anti-DRMs? You do know that not everyone cares about what big corporations do, right?

 

1Leonard,

 

HH should have pulled TSLRCM making it clear that the decision was made due to how Steam dealt with him on a human level.

 

He has all my sympathy for feeling abused by yet another corporal decision because that is how I felt (abused) when Steam came into play, controlling the distribution of software patches/updates to enforce retention and killing the second hand market by forcing to register a game to your account. Just to name the two biggest issues I personally have.

 

Also what VP is saying above makes perfect sense.

So he should act in an authoritative position based on a personal injustice? Now this just feels like politics.

 

Oh, I have sympathy for HH. I just don't agree with his course. It's very much possible to feel something and not have the same view in the end.

 

I dunno about you guys, but ten years ago I hadn't heard of KotOR... so to expect me to have supported the mod ten years ago seems... unfair.

 

I use the 4CD version.

Yep, I'm in the same boat.

[Malkior 476]

I dunno about you guys, but ten years ago I hadn't heard of KotOR... so to expect me to have supported the mod ten years ago seems... unfair.

 

I use the 4CD version.

I followed the Team Gizka Project back when it was TSLRP, and it was several YEARS until I even knew DS existed, let alone had actually completed it.

 

I had gotten minimal results from the established Lucas-themed forums, and so was effectively forced to "upload my mod and hope for some sort of result". I was invited here a "casual" who barely knew how to edit anything more complex than a .zip file.

 

 

I can't abide this needless elitism, as it hurts many an aspiring modding career. I mean, TSLRCM has gotten so much exposure that it has actually started some people on the path of creating their own mods!

 

Steam might be a faceless corporation, but its users deserve the same respect as any of us.. Perhaps they may seem lazy, but honestly, our particular hobby is incredibly esoteric and many people aren't able or perhaps willing to put the hours of learning and downloading extra tools to benefit from it as we are.

[Salk 368]

Since when did you have to be interested in modding to want a patch that fixes the game?

Since always.

 

I could start by saying that simple patching a game is already a modding operation since it modifies the original software but I will drop the semantics to just remark that TSLRCM is not an official patch that fixes a game but rather a community based modification that happens, among other things, to fix outstanding problems with the original game. As such, people not interested in modding their games would not know about it.

 

Steam users do not have any special right to find TSLRCM or any other modification integrated in their Steam experience. Putting it there and keeping it autoupdated is just a concession of the original author and it is their right to pull it whenever they please.

 

Hate to break the news to you again, but just because two or more people experience the same thing does not mean they will both arrive at the same conclusion/understanding/viewpoint... But if I didn't agree, I must not have understood at all (brings back such fun memories of my dad, but the only difference is that you're probably not drunk)

So far the news you broke to me were not so revealing to me: suffering the same humiliation leads in the majority of cases to the same kind of negative reaction which, in turn, may or may lead to some kind of uprising, especially if the mistreatment is systematic and endemic.

 

But feel free to tell me you can gather a good number of people that after experiencing the pleasure of having made to feel like second class (rather: having been treated as such) citizens will be broadly smiling at the generous benefactor, singing their praise for having brought them to the realization about their true nature.

 

So people using and sticking with what they're used to using and are comfortable with automatically means they're pro-DRM and ready to go battle the anti-DRMs?

Sitting on the fence is always an easy option. Are you comfortable?

 

You do know that not everyone cares about what big corporations do, right?

Obviosuly. Does it mean I should not share my thought on the matter?

 

So he should act in an authoritative position based on a personal injustice? Now this just feels like politics.

Funny. HH would be the authoritative subject in all this?

 

Oh, I have sympathy for HH. I just don't agree with his course. It's very much possible to feel something and not have the same view in the end.

Instead I have sympathy for HH and agree with his course because of it. But I guess you'd say we both share the same amount of sympathy for HH...

[Rovan 6]

Since always.

 

I could start by saying that simple patching a game is already a modding operation since it modifies the original software but I will drop the semantics to just remark that TSLRCM is not an official patch that fixes a game but rather a community based modification that happens, among other things, to fix outstanding problems with the original game. As such, people not interested in modding their games would not know about it.

 

Steam users do not have any special right to find TSLRCM or any other modification integrated in their Steam experience. Putting it there and keeping it autoupdated is just a concession of the original author and it is their right to pull it whenever they please.

 

Removing TSLRCM from the Workshop has the potential to break many games in progress, hurting legitimate users who can't install the mod normally(such as people who don't play on Windows and/or can't use Wine or Wineskin).

 

Sitting on the fence is always an easy option. Are you comfortable?

 

Yes. In any case, pulling a mod won't even make a dent in Valve's business practices, and again, it'll only hurt legitimate users who might not be able to install the mod normally.

[Fair Strides 509]

Since always.

So if a new player searched "KotOR 2 patch" on Google to find patches for the game, they must automatically be interested in modding if they find TSLRCM?

 

For reference, the third result on that Google search is an ultimate guide to patching, fixing, and restoring KotOR 2 (words like "Ultimate", "fixing", and "patching" might draw the user's eye) which links to PC Gaming Wiki (here) and tells users about the TSLRCM...

 

But they weren't interested in modding. They just wanted to patch and fix their game.

 

I could start by saying that simple patching a game is already a modding operation since it modifies the original software but I will drop the semantics to just remark that TSLRCM is not an official patch that fixes a game but rather a community based modification that happens, among other things, to fix outstanding problems with the original game. As such, people not interested in modding their games would not know about it

See above. I will also mention that fixing bugs, which you say the mod "happens, among other things, to fix", was high up on the mod's priority list besides restoring content. I've already given evidence above of how a new user would find the TSLRCM by complete accident, without even trying to find mods.

 

Steam users do not have any special right to find TSLRCM or any other modification at a click's distance. Putting it there is just a concession of the original author and it is their right to pull it whenever they please.

Just a click's distance away? Then let's go remove all direct links to TSLRCM across the internet and make people have to do five or more clicks. After all, having a single click is just a concession that can be taken away, at it'd be fair to everybody...

 

So far the news you broke to me were not so revealing to me: experiencing the same humiliation leads in the majority of cases to the same kind of negative reaction which, in turn, may or may lead to some kind of uprising.

 

And you assume that any different feelings must be positive and approving. You can be negative and not be bitter or evil.

 

Sitting on the fence is always an easy option. Are you comfortable?

It's a prime seat for watching both halves of the show. I brought popcorn, too.

 

Obviosuly. Does it mean I should not share my thought on the matter?

You should, but that doesn't mean everyone should be forced to pick a side, or do as GrandmasterArcturus has and accuse people who don't care or do nothing. There are extremes that should be avoided.

 

Funny. HH would be the authoritative subject in all this?

 Seeing as he's acting as a maintainer of TSLRCM and not as an individual... yes.

 

Instead I have sympathy for HH and agree with his course because of it. But I guess you'd say we both share the same amount of sympathy for HH...

Do really want to say that one's sympathy is directly related to whether or not one agrees? Do you have any idea how asinine that sounds?

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

I dunno about you guys, but ten years ago I hadn't heard of KotOR... so to expect me to have supported the mod ten years ago seems... unfair.

 

This. Except it also applies to five years ago for me. I had zero interest in (or knowledge of) modding until I learned about the TSLRCM (for me, it was through reading about the game's cut content in Wookieepedia). It basically acted as my gateway to the world of modding...

 

Since I don't have TSL on Steam, removing TSLRCM wouldn't have any impact on me... but if I did and had installed TSLRCM through the Workshop, I would be a little annoyed, since it would give me the inconvenience of having to find it elsewhere and install it (not to mention whatever technical problems might arise), and the reasons given really don't seem like they would be enough to satisfy me that it would be worth my trouble. I wouldn't be up in arms about it, but I would certainly prefer that it not happen if I was in that situation.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Okay, this is getting a little hostile, and since the hypotethical pulling has been pulled, the thread doesn't serve much purpose anymore anyways.

 

Can't say I'm all too happy about that myself, since it basically feels to me like letting Valve run right over me without making any kind of stand, but such it is.

 

Also, myself I pre-ordered TSL, followed Team Gizka closely, played their leaked beta, reported the zillion bugs in it, got insulted and left on with Zbyl and Stoney as beta-tester. Yup, that was all I did. Till around 1.6 if I recall correctly. Only then did I start downloading some tools and trying to put some of my own work in rather than just pestering them with a gigantic list of stuff for them to fix. And well, the rest is history, but that does mean even I wasn't into modding for the entire lifespan of TSLRCM itself, let stand TSL.

[zbyl2 811]

I only read a first post and can't bother reading 5 pages so I don't have a full picture of what's going on, but we're not removing TSLRCM from workshop, definitely not just because you have issues with some trading cards. It's the easiest way to install and most effective way for us to quickly update the mod of hundreds of thousands of people and removing it would be silly, unprofessional and just plain mean to those who use it.

 

I know thread is locked but I couldn't comment on the matter earlier, and I want my position to be clear.