Thinking of removing TSLRCM from the Workshop

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Short backstory... I don't have a smartphone, no need, no want.

Steam now decides that makes me a pariah, a second-class user, and pretty much completely blocks my ability to actually make some funds with trading cards, you know, what somewhat pays for my gaming habit.

 

So yeah...

With a Steam that obviously doesn't want me, why would I actually make their service more attractive by having an easy one-click auto-updating TSLRCM? I don't quite see why I would support them if they dismiss me so badly.

So with that in mind, I'm thinking about, starting March 9th, to remove TSLRCM from the Workshop completely. People would have to come here or moddb (which I will update then) for their fix and updates. The age-old issues with installing noobs will return again (and know pressing a button is already hard for them already).

 

So, does anyone think this is too harsh? Wants to try and make me change my mind? Cause trust me, I WILL do it.

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

*Shrugs* I don't have the Steam version of TSL anyway... but I think that it wouldn't be a horrible idea, so long as you give people advance warning and let them know where the mod can be found.

 

I only have one game that I actually use the Steam Workshop for, and only one of the three mods I currently have (planning to get more later) is from there. As long as mods are accessible from other places, I don't think it's terrible to not have them on the workshop. (Then again, I'm probably a bit more knowledgeable about mod installation than a bunch of people, if only by reason of a fair amount of experience.)

[Haveayap 127]

Anyone with a half a brain wouldn't use the steam workshop anyway, it broke my k2 game and its mods... Better of reverting to the legacy PC and altering their files if you know what your doing so they don't break things

[Malkior 476]

Well, there was actual nationwide news about TSLRCM being accessible through Steam, so I think leaving a chance to appeal your decision through something like Reddit might be beneficial, but I do agree with you.

 

At the very least, people will stop utilizing mods from the workshop with TSLRCM, and causing untold problems with their installation. :/

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Well, the threads (threats?) been made on the Steamforums, let's see what users think.

[Guest]

Well, there was actual nationwide news about TSLRCM being accessible through Steam, so I think leaving a chance to appeal your decision through something like Reddit might be beneficial, but I do agree with you.

 

At the very least, people will stop utilizing mods from the workshop with TSLRCM, and causing untold problems with their installation. :/

 

I agree. 

[Sith Holocron 2,480]

I think you ought to run this by Zbyl2. As he's away for the moment, you'll have time for community feedback until then.

[Haveayap 127]

I say take the mod down... The reason they banned you was ridiculous, with a bit of pull, valve might listen to you

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I am split on this.

 

Pro: Steam workshop is nonsense and has introduced a load of compatibility issues

Pro: Forces users to install the mod the way it was intended to be installed, therefore minimizing compatibility issues

Pro: Acts as a gateway mod to other content hosted here

 

Con: Less convenient for users

Con: Decreases TSLRCM visibility overall (some people have never heard of and will never hear of DeadlyStream)

Con: People will upload TSLRCM to the workshop anyways, and then we need to deal with that horse stuff

 

Also, Hassat, please link to the Steam discussions where all this is happening. I would like to hear more about your gripes with Steam/Valve as well.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

http://steamcommunity.com/app/208580/discussions/0/412448792353582989/

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

http://steamcommunity.com/app/208580/discussions/0/412448792353582989/

 

I see Haveyap talks about a ban? Why did they ban you?

 

Just curious.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Ban notification from a Steam Community Moderator — 2 minutes ago

 

You have been banned from Steam Discussions

You have been banned from Steam Discussions by a Steam Community Moderator for your post in "Idea how to improve steam trading. Good idea...":

 

That's all we really want yeah.

But apparently Valve ♥♥♥♥-suckers think that's a horrible idea, and we can't have actual control over our own account cause... actually, I'm not sure, I'm not a fanatic like them to understand their reasoning.

 

 

Ban Reason:

 

Insulting Valve's userbase.

 

 

Please review the Discussions Rules and Guidelines.

 

This ban will expire on 9 Mar @ 6:01pm. Until then, you will not be able to post in Steam Discussions.

[LDR 234]

If you get treated like garbage, then feel free to take it down. Steam workshop is utter trash honestly. If they have a problem with it, then tough. They brought it upon themselves. Vast majority of steam users are entitled brats and jerks anyways.

 

 

Con: Decreases TSLRCM visibility overall (some people have never heard of and will never hear of DeadlyStream)

 

I could care less how much visibility we get. If getting more traffic means HH and other modders get insulted and maltreated by Valve and the like, then we don't need that traffic.

[rybrentmannftw 5]

Please don't take it down. I know there are a lot of entitled asshats on steam, but not all are. I like the easiness of downloading it. Please don't. 

[Haveayap 127]

Please don't take it down. I know there are a lot of entitled asshats on steam, but not all are. I like the easiness of downloading it. Please don't.

If it is taken away, your current downloaded version will still be there. You just won't be able to get new updates through steam

[Rovan 6]

I personally think this might be a little too harsh, but hell, if Steam's treated you like this, I'd say take it down. Let people discover DS on their own, it's probably the first result if you look up TSLRCM. 

 

And to the OSX and Linux users, Wine and/or Wineskin works very well with the TSLRCM installer. There shouldn't be any problems with that.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

If it is taken away, your current downloaded version will still be there. You just won't be able to get new updates through steam

 

That being the case, I vote we take it down. If people can still get it, but it doesn't update, that sounds optimal. I don't think it was ever meant for the Workshop in any case...

 

... that said, we should wait for Zbyl's take on this.

 

I personally think this might be a little too harsh, but hell, if Steam's treated you like this, I'd say take it down. Let people discover DS on their own, it's probably the first result if you look up TSLRCM. 

 

And to the OSX and Linux users, Wine and/or Wineskin works very well with the TSLRCM installer. There shouldn't be any problems with that.

Actually, for Mac, I believe Aspyr has an installer for that.

[nerdenstein 4]

I actually don't think it would be massively beneficial to remove it. Sure installing mods through Steam is a ballache but the real issue is installing other mods via Workshop. I use Steam workshop for the latest version of TSLRCM but then install mods into that workshop folder.

It's a project you guys must be so proud of and with the exposure Star Wars is getting as a whole, I feel like you should leave it on a service like Steam, even if you don't fully support it. I guess you could just not update, if you do have another version of TSLRCM in the works and just change the description to point to a download link here on Deadly Stream?

[Haveayap 127]

I am sorry if I wasn't clear - but - I meant if people already have it downloaded, they shouldn't lose it but if its removed. No one else will be able to download it (one of the bugs with the workshop)

 

 
That being the case, I vote we take it down. If people can still get it, but it doesn't update, that sounds optimal. I don't think it was ever meant for the Workshop in any case...
 
... that said, we should wait for Zbyl's take on this.


Actually, for Mac, I believe Aspyr has an installer for that.

[Kexikus 995]

I vote not to take it down. Of course, Steam treated You like sh*t and forcing people to use a Smartphone authenticator sucks, but TSLRCM and TSL shouldn't suffer from that. And here's why I think they would:

We can probably all agree that TSLRCM is needed for The Game to be the way it was intended to be. With that in mind, people should use The mod and while many people now know about it Thanks to The media coverage of Aspyr's big update, new players are still discovering TSL that might have missed these news. Currently they get The Game on Steam, see The Workshop and check out The most popular mods. And them they hopefully decide to install TSLRCM. With The mod taken down (or no Workshop) a huge amount of those players would simply not use it (as everyone can see by comparing DS and Workshop download numbers).

In most cases, it's probably not even The amount of Work keeping them from installing non Workshop mods but they just don't know about them and don't read forums or search for them.

So, for the sake of honest players, I'd keep it up there.

Also, as was mentioned before, someone would reupload it and them it'd be broken and people would complain even more. Not to mention the sh*tstorm coming from the actual removal.

Long story short: I can fully understand why you don't want to support Steam any longer. (Same with annoying Steam comment sections...) But keep in mind that those are only a minority and having it on the Workshop helps a really really big deal in making TSL a better game for a large amount of people. And even though some would read a sticky informing them about TSLRCM, most of them wouldn't.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I am sorry if I wasn't clear - but - I meant if people already have it downloaded, they shouldn't lose it but if its removed. No one else will be able to download it (one of the bugs with the workshop)

Gotcha.

 

Remove from the workshop entirely.

 

Upload an older version, (if we want).

 

Link to DS for the new version.

 

Problem solved.

[DarthParametric 3,795]

If it is taken away, your current downloaded version will still be there.

Actually no, I don't think it will be. That's actually a major problem with using Steam Workshop with Xcom 2. If a mod author pulls their mod from the Workshop, then the mod is automatically uninstalled/deleted on your end by Steam, and then any saves made using that mod are broken as the game refuses to load them without the missing "DLC". If this happens with the Workshop version of TSLRCM as well (the auto-deleting part), you are going to break a lot of people's games.

[Circa 40]

So this is just to protest Steam's smartphone authenticator? Seems like a knee-jerk reaction on your part, if so. I understand the frustration with that, but in the end, Valve won't care. Just because one mod for an 11 year old game gets pulled, doesn't mean they'll change their minds on it.

[Snigaroo 119]

I want to add my two cents to this discussion from a somewhat outside perspective.

 

Recently there's been a relative upswing in interest for the KOTOR games. Between the releases on Steam, the popularization of TSLRCM and other major mods like K1R, the Aspyr update, and indeed the Workshop itself and the reinvigorated interest in modding it's brought about, the KOTOR community is in a much healthier place right now than I think many people would have anticipated it would be three or four years ago. I moderate the /r/kotor subreddit, and there's a really good case in point to be found there: just over two years ago we had about 2,000 members. Just barely over a year ago, on February 20th of 2015, we hit 6,000. And as of today, we're almost 12,000 users strong. In the first year we had nigh-exponential growth, and in the year since we've still managed to double our userbase.

 

Regardless of our perspectives on any other issue, I believe that's a positive thing that we can all agree upon; whether you just want people to enjoy the games the same way you did or you want to keep hope for a true sequel alive, the interest KOTOR has been getting lately is wholly beneficial. I think we can also all agree that TSLRCM has been a major part of that. It's made the rounds through, and indeed beyond, virtually every center of KOTOR interest on the 'net. Gamers who played KOTOR 2 when it first came out and found it lackluster and buggy are replaying it now because of TSLRCM, they're almost unanimously finding it more enjoyable, and because of that quite a few of them are sticking around in our respective communities, expanding them and keeping them active. Since the Workshop has come about, this has only accelerated.

 

This is why I'm wholly puzzled by this decision. Many of the people responding to this thread appear to be suggesting alternative solutions to an issue which shouldn't exist in the first place. Uploading an old version of TSLRCM with a link to deadlystream as a "workaround" for TSLRCM's removal from the Workshop, or creating a sticky with the link, isn't logical, it's merely as close as one can get to a logical response for an illogical action.

 

As multiple users here have already noted, people are stupid. Yes, the Workshop is terrible for modding, and I think we can all agree on that too. But whether that's true or not, very few users actually care enough to install mods that are more difficult than the press of a button; fewer still are willing to check the steam forums to bother looking for a link to a mod they want elsewhere; and yet fewer again would care to ever try to fix something which is broken on the first install. While that last point applies to the Workshop and the mispointed launcher equally, I think my point is clear: by removing TSLRCM from the Workshop in any capacity, by segregating any part of it to Deadlystream, you would be placing artificial and unnecessary roadblocks in the way of users getting the mod. Those roadblocks may amount to no more than two button-clicks and a wait for a download, but that doesn't matter; people aren't just stupid, they're lazy. Many people simply won't do it, and the popularity of the mod, and likely the game as well, will suffer as a result.

 

I understand frustration with Steam's system, and I understand frustration at a ban, but this will accomplish nothing for you. Valve won't care that a single mod for a game which is over a decade old has been removed, and the moderators on the Steam forums certainly won't care. What this will accomplish is damage, to the communities to which we all belong. Loss of popularity for the games which we have all, inevitably, invested so much time into can only be a negative thing in the long-run, even if linking directly to deadlystream brings in more users to this particular community in the short-term. I can see no possible benefit to this, and must advise strongly against it.

[1Leonard 134]

I want to add my two cents to this discussion from a somewhat outside perspective.

 

 

Hey Snigaroo, fancy seeing you here. I like your insightful writings on the subreddit, good stuff.

 

Now let me go on topic for a sec:

 

HH, from a PR perspective, this is one of the worst things you can do.

 

This will not be perceived as some statement of protest to Valve, but rather as you taking the ball and going home. I myself like the ability to install mods to the Steam Workshop folder. Then when I remove that folder my Steam install is immediately reverted to vanilla. Furthermore, as I'm a Mac user, the ease of installation is doubled because I don't have to go around and get Wine. Speaking of, people mentioned that Mac and Linx users could just as easily use Wine to install TSLRCM. Speaking from my experience in the Mac Wineskin scene (made a wrapper for TSL back when it was windows only) most Mac users do not know how to utilize Wine. Would they then have to learn use a new program just to install a mod which was available with the click of a mouse the month before?

 

This brings me to my last point, which is more of a question: Who is intended to play this mod? It's not the power-users (or us) who will feel the consequences of your proposed action, they won't care, they'll just come here. I can even see people who are active gamers getting informed of the mod's new location and getting it here, so this won't hurt them either. However, a large part of steam users, of any hobby, is very casual, who just want to play some games without researching and troubleshooting for an hour. Are they then not allowed to experience a fully restored game? Just because Valve decides to do something you don't like? Most casual users will just see that the mod isn't up anymore and just decide that it's apparently not important enough to be on the Steam workshop, and just play the game without, because they don't have time or don't want to put in the time for research. Is that fair?

 

Ultimately it's your decision of course, but I'd advice you not to do it.

Removing TSLRCM won't matter to Valve, but will punish casual gamers.