Star Wars Episode VII Discussion (MASSIVE SPOILERS)

[Doctor Evil 51]

It sure worked out VERY WELL for Han and their son...

 

Oh, wait.

 

Are you intentionally trying to sabotage your point?

 

Oh dear, if only you could actually read my points and address them correctly, but then you haven't done that very well throughout this thread, let alone come up with decent theories. You're really not that good at this, aren't you?

 

If love in general lead to the dark side, then I guess the galaxy would be pretty devoid of life. Nice logic there bub. Take it from Jolee Bindo -->

 

"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you."

―Jolee Bindo, to Revan, when discussing love (

)

 

Ben Solo fell to the dark side not because he loved his father, if anything love nearly brought him back to the light, as it did when Vader saw his son nearly electrified to death. Love, if anything, is an artifact of the light side. Star Wars has plenty of evidence to this.

 

What we saw between Anakin and Padme was (attempted at least) passion, though they were actually in love, they let their passions take over them and in the end it controlled anakin's actions. Fear of losing padme is what drove him to the dark side, not love itself

[Fair Strides 509]

Obi-Wan was quite different in his padawan days, and a bit unorthodox. I wouldn't put it out of his capabilities to be more than close with women, say Satine.

Well, there was that time aboard her ship involving her, him, another man, and a blaster. As i recall, Obi-wan's words were, "If you had asked me... I would have left the Jedi Order."

[Doctor Evil 51]

Well, there was that time aboard her ship involving her, him, another man, and a blaster. As i recall, Obi-wan's words were, "If you had asked me... I would have left the Jedi Order."

 

Exactly my point. The Clone Wars series showed that the two were extremely close in their younger years, and given that fact, it's extremely likely they did more than just cuddle, and they weren't much older than teenagers during that time (they might actually have been teenagers, I don't know their exact age, but it was before Obi-Wan met Anakin).

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Because not the entire galaxy exists of Force wielders capable of massive powers.

 

Any other easy questions I can answer in 5 seconds?

[Doctor Evil 51]

Because not the entire galaxy exists of Force wielders capable of massive powers.

 

Any other easy questions I can answer in 5 seconds?

 

Maybe my other points of Leia being in love but not falling, how love redeemed anakin, and love kept Luke kept himself from killing Vader. You still have yet to answer me on those, let alone the dozens of other counter-points I've put across you during this thread that you have failed to address, or even Jolee's point of love. There are countless others. Love is a central part of Star Wars, and it's a central part of the light side.

 

OH YEAH, let's pull one from EU which is non-canon: Luke and Mara Jade. Weren't those two in love? They must have fallen to the dark side, then...not!

 

You're trying to sound snarky and smart when you're making claims without backing them up, then completely ignoring the evidence I bring up to disprove you (this has to be the 5th time, right?). Kind of makes you look dumb. If you're wondering why I'm a bit annoyed with you, that's the reason right there.

[Haveayap 127]

No, fear of losing padme lead to the dark side. Very different thing. Guess Leia is on the dark side then since she loved Han.

 

Obi-Wan was quite different in his padawan days, and a bit unorthodox. I wouldn't put it out of his capabilities to be more than close with women, say Satine.

 

 

Cool story, but if it was bad then people wouldn't be going back to re-watch it. People knew TPM and KoCS was garbage after their first viewing, and if they aren't thinking TFA is bad now, then it's actually good. If it takes 3 viewing just to pique your interest, then you have problems.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of people genuinely like the movie because its a good movie

well most people I have spoken too seem to think the movie isn't half as good after their second viewing... I've seen it three times in cinemas (I also watched TPM 3 times in cinemas and most people actually loved TPM at first (they were a little confused but were fine with it). It wasn't until AOTC was released when the PT backlash really started

 

Also, I still do not believe Rey will be Obi-wans daughter or grand daughter. Like I said, it will damage the established character that we have already. Rey was most likely a student of Lukes that managed to survive (and after several viewings of the movie and reading the novel, I feel as though Snoke may try and turn her to the dark side later on in the series because I still feel as though Kylo is trying to hard to be 'evil', whereas Rey already has alot of hate and anger built up inside)

[Doctor Evil 51]

well most people I have spoken too seem to think the movie isn't half as good after their second viewing... I've seen it three times in cinemas (I also watched TPM 3 times in cinemas and most people actually loved TPM at first (they were a little confused but were fine with it). It wasn't until AOTC was released when the PT backlash really started

 

No, the backlash for TPM was pretty immediate. I remember people clapping as the opening credits rolled and then booing at the end, and critics were extremely harsh on it. Never heard one person booing at the end of TFA, it was either mostly claps or silence if it was a casual crowd

 

AS for the people, on my end most people loved it even more on their second viewing, so we can go either way, but as I said the box office stats speak for itself

 

 

Also, I still do not believe Rey will be Obi-wans daughter or grand daughter. Like I said, it will damage the established character that we have already. Rey was most likely a student of Lukes that managed to survive (and after several viewings of the movie and reading the novel, I feel as though Snoke may try and turn her to the dark side later on in the series because I still feel as though Kylo is trying to hard to be 'evil', whereas Rey already has alot of hate and anger built up inside)

 

How would it damage the character at all? This again sounds like "we must worship the OT it is all that is holy blah blah blah" It's perfectly concievable that he had relations with satine when he was a horny young boy because he was a horny young boy second of all they loved each other and when that happens, its more than just chillig.

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

Maybe my other points of Leia being in love but not falling, how love redeemed anakin, and love kept Luke kept himself from killing Vader. You still have yet to answer me on those, let alone the dozens of other counter-points I've put across you during this thread that you have failed to address, or even Jolee's point of love. There are countless others. Love is a central part of Star Wars, and it's a central part of the light side.

 

OH YEAH, let's pull one from EU which is non-canon: Luke and Mara Jade. Weren't those two in love? They must have fallen to the dark side, then...not!

 

I might point out that it would theoretically be possible for love to have led Anakin to the dark side without it automatically leading everybody to the dark side...

 

In Anakin's case, I think that he failed to take Jolee's advice of controlling passions while being in love. There were also other factors that went into his fall, such as his distrust of the Jedi.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

I really like how Dr Evil appears to think that by mentioning that the movie is successful and lots of people saw it he's scoring some kind of a point.

[Doctor Evil 51]

I really like how Dr Evil appears to think that by mentioning that the movie is successful and lots of people saw it he's scoring some kind of a point.

 

I really like how you and HH have failed to prove me wrong on any of my points and just end up not addressing them yet think you're extremely intelligent at the same time for disliking the movie, and it is scoring a point in my meaning that people think the movie is good. That's an opinion I share, glad you have an issue with that kiddo.

[Mutilator57 140]

I really like how Dr Evil appears to think that by mentioning that the movie is successful and lots of people saw it he's scoring some kind of a point.

You can try to present logical, sustained and compelling arguments arguing sensibly at the flaws in his beloved 'TFA' and he will still find a way to ignore them and personally insult you while he does so. Just look at HH and my *numerous* posts a few pages back. And while we're on it who really thinks that the Box Office is any way to grade a movie?! I mean does anyone really believe that a movie like Avatar is little more than a glorified Dancing with Wolves in space?

 

Now that that's set aside, I really feel that the future for the new trilogy lies in really getting to flesh out everyone's characters in no. 8, just like they did in ESB. If we take the starting point as Rey then I think they should try to delve deeper into her prodigious abilities and develop the resulting challenges that presents her, both physically and emotionally. Hopefully they will avoid an explanation analogous to the 'Chosen One' cop-out and I must admit, I do think the idea that she might have once been Luke's apprentice is appropriate if done properly. 

[Doctor Evil 51]

You can try to present logical, sustained and compelling arguments arguing sensibly at the flaws in his beloved 'TFA' and he will still find a way to ignore them and personally insult you while he does so. Just look at HH and my *numerous* posts a few pages back. And while we're on it who really thinks that the Box Office is any way to grade a movie?! I mean does anyone really believe that a movie like Avatar is little more than a glorified Dancing with Wolves in space?

 

Oh it's you again. Your "logical and compelling arguments" were nothing but whine fests that were filled with "boo hoo my EU got cut from canon, my comic books aren't canon!" and pretty much getting upset when I pointed out flaws in YOUR arguments then shutting down completely. I'm starting to believe that some of you just have problems reading in general, I never said this movie was without flaws as I have pointed it out from time to time, but the flaws you're pointing out mostly aren't even really present. You say I ignore your posts and yet you ignore mine on a consistent basis. Look back and pretty much I address each and every one of your points quite well, at least until you decided to do your whole "oh i'm clever so I'll edit my post over and over to respond to what Doctor Evil is saying when he makes a new post!" So before saying how "Dr Evil ignores me and my points and insults me!" Try thinking about that and how that actually applies to you, because I have read every single one of your posts and responded to them adequately; and when I do, usually I get "oh you're an idiot, I'm not gonna bother responding!" Meaning you can't even summize a response, and are upset because I actually do my homework. If you can't do basic reading and back your own points up with evidence (which you haven't done well at all) then you deserve to be ridiculed. This is a debate, after all, don't get upset when I point out flaws in your own argument and can actually engage in a long, well thought debate. Oh, and I do hope maybe you'll take what I said into consideration this time. If you actually read what I say and respond in kind by addressing my points, I will treat you with respect because I have done that with every one of your posts.

 

The hypocrisy is real.

 

And so far you dissenters haven't really given me a decent argument of why this movie isn't good, one of the reasons being that whenever I respond to your posts, I rarely get a full response in kind. All I'm getting is conjexture, baseless anger, and "flaws" that are either present in all of Star Wars (the convenient stuff) or "It's a rehash so it must be bad" when it's actually not a rehash if you pay attention, and the whole rehash argument can be applied to nearly every Star Wars movie. Also, Box office isn't the only way to judge a movie, but it is a factor. If a movie was garbage, it wouldn't be getting nearly the amount of money it needs. Compare TPM with TFA's box office. TPM and TFA have a huge divergence in how much money they earned, simply because TPM wasn't a good film and people said it wasn't, thus fewer people watched it as a result. With TFA, people have said it was a good film and thus people keep going to see it, and then go see it again because they like it so much. It's basic logic, you should try it sometime bub

 

Now, as much as I'd love to discuss me, how about now we move back onto the subject at hand, which is actually discussing the movie.

 

 

Now that that's set aside, I really feel that the future for the new trilogy lies in really getting to flesh out everyone's characters in no. 8, just like they did in ESB. If we take the starting point as Rey then I think they should try to delve deeper into her prodigious abilities and develop the resulting challenges that presents her, both physically and emotionally. Hopefully they will avoid an explanation analogous to the 'Chosen One' cop-out and I must admit, I do think the idea that she might have once been Luke's apprentice is appropriate if done properly.

 

I think it's all but clear she's had some training at the time, but my hope is she doesn't know luke at all.

 

(sorry if my sentences run a bit, it's early over here, I'll probably go back and format them so they might be a bit easier)

Edited January 9, 2016 by Doctor Evil

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

From what I've observed, both sides tend to accuse the other of not addressing their points. I don't have the patience to go back and read these arguments again, but I'd guess that there's probably some wrong on both sides.

 

In my case, most of the points addressed at first were obviously subjective in nature, and I acknowledged them as such. I addresses the others back and was left alone after that (although that may be because I was ignored; I don't know and don't want to cast blame).

 

Just try to be respectful and listen to the other side, okay?

[Doctor Evil 51]

From what I've observed, both sides tend to accuse the other of not addressing their points. I don't have the patience to go back and read these arguments again, but I'd guess that there's probably some wrong on both sides.

 

In my case, most of the points addressed at first were obviously subjective in nature, and I acknowledged them as such. I addresses the others back and was left alone after that (although that may be because I was ignored; I don't know and don't want to cast blame).

 

Just try to be respectful and listen to the other side, okay?

 

Well, the ones you responded to were subjective, but since you seemed to enjoy the movie, I didn't think it was that big of a deal, If you want I'm down to go back to that. However, there wasn't much to say. The only ones of mine you went on were the kylo ren ones, which again were subjective so there wasn't much point since there wasn't much else to be said.

 

I can truthfully and confidently say that I have tried to the best of my ability to address the criticisms of the movie that people bring up, and at times I do concede parts which are a bit dumb or not well thought out, but looking back through the thread I say I've pretty much responded to most people when I started in this thread, but then again I'm biased there because... hey, it's me

 

My problem is that I want to have an intelligent debate, and then what I ended up getting back from certain people was just whining and insults with no substance, and then taking my quotes out of context and completely ignoring others when people responded. To me that was just... ugh.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Doctor Evil

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

Well, the ones you responded to were subjective, but since you seemed to enjoy the movie, I didn't think it was that big of a deal, If you want I'm down to go back to that. However, there wasn't much to say. The only ones of mine you went on were the kylo ren ones, which again were subjective so there wasn't much point since there wasn't much else to be said.

 

I can truthfully and confidently say that I have tried to the best of my ability to address the criticisms of the movie that people bring up, and at times I do concede parts which are a bit dumb or not well thought out, but looking back through the thread I say I've pretty much responded to most people when I started in this thread, but then again I'm biased there because... hey, it's me

 

My problem is that I want to have an intelligent debate, and then what I ended up getting back from certain people was just whining and insults with no substance, and to me that was just... ugh.

As I said, I'm not going back to read through the stuff again, and I'm not trying to cast blame on anybody. Just trying to keep the peace a bit here..

[Markus Ramikin 107]

who really thinks that the Box Office is any way to grade a movie?! I mean does anyone really believe that a movie like Avatar is little more than a glorified Dancing with Wolves in space?

Quite - but even that isn't quite what I meant. If people are discussing specific issues in the movie, and someone brings up "well it was successful, people like it" as a response to that, then they don't realize they aren't even speaking on topic. It's a discussion at the level of monkey-politics: everything nice you can shout about the movie is a point scored against the guys on the other treetop who are the enemy team, criticising it.

 

For example, that thing I said at the start, that TFA's writing has a lot of stupid in it? I could say the same thing about better movies than TFA, such as, say, the Dark Knight. The Joker just walking into a meeting of some 30 mob bosses without getting even frisked long before he saw the inside of the room was ridiculous. If the one tried to respond to that by saying "well it was a good movie, people liked it", I would shrug and say "so did I, your point?"

 

(As to how reliable the box office is of as a measure of a film's goodness, three words: Glengarry Glen Ross.)

[Doctor Evil 51]

Quite - but even that isn't quite what I meant. If people are discussing specific issues in the movie, and someone brings up "well it was successful, people like it" as a response to that, then they don't realize they aren't even speaking on topic. It's  discussion at the level of monkey-politics: everything nice you can shout about the movie is a point against the guys on the other treetop who are the enemy team, criticising it.

 

I actually brought it up simply as a fact, not as a response. I said that it surpassed Avatar as #1 scoring film, to which HH replied and I did as well, and I also pointed out it's as a result of people going to see it multiple times

Edited January 9, 2016 by Doctor Evil

[Markus Ramikin 107]

I actually brought it up simply as a fact, not as a response. I said that it surpassed Avatar as #1 scoring film, to which HH replied and I did as well

Heh, nope. Earlier you said "Regardless of what you thought, a lot of people love it apparently, a lot of people I know are going to see it multiple times". That "you" makes it a response, not sure to whom but the posts above yours are discussing specific issues.

 

No matter. You know, I'm almost tempted to take you up on your claim tnat you're looking for an intelligent discussion. But I am going to be 100% honest here when I say that when I first posted and you started trying to refute my points, I repeatedly failed to get the impression that you understood what I was saying before you went on to criticising it.

 

I particularly regretted going out of my way to make it extra clear in which sense I used the words "important to the plot" - in order to clarify what one of my issues with the movie is - because you then scratched off two lines in which you brought up two ways in which Han was "important" that had nothing to do with what I had just been explaining. It's discouraging.

 

And when you combine that with condescending or otherwise unnecessary crap like "Try again", "Maybe you should pay attention more to the movie", "But sure, let's make everything stroke your ego,", then I'm sorry but you don't come across as worth the effort. You can go on complaining that nobody talks fairly with you, even though you supposedly addressed every point made by me and HH and whoever, but until your posts start looking like you're actually willing to make the effort to understand what the other guy is saying, I expect this'll keep happening to you.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

Have you all read the article on i09 about TFA?

Everything That's Wrong With Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[Doctor Evil 51]

I particularly regretted going out of my way to make it extra clear in which sense I used the words "important to the plot" - in order to clarify what one of my issues with the movie is - because you then scratched off two lines in which you brought up two ways in which Han was "important" that had nothing to do with what I had just been explaining. It's discouraging.

 

And when you combine that with condescending or otherwise unnecessary crap like "Try again", "Maybe you should pay attention more to the movie", "But sure, let's make everything stroke your ego,", then I'm sorry but you don't come across as worth the effort. You can go on complaining that nobody talks fairly with you, even though you supposedly addressed every point made by me and HH and whoever, but until your posts start looking like you're actually willing to make the effort to understand what the other guy is saying, I expect this'll keep happening to you.

 

I was condescending when you yourself decided to play that game, don't expect me not to level the playing field, but w/e. I responded to most of them, to which it seems you had issues with it and then proceeded to get all personal, but ok. Those "statements" regarding pay attention actually applies because it seems to me you're gut reacting and then not focusing on what else the movie is doing, because the movie moves fairly fast.

 

Don't get upset when I can play the same game you can.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

1) Which planets did Starkiller Base destroy? All I know is that they were in the Hosnian System . . .

 

2) Looking forward to comments about the article like I posted.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

1) Which planets did Starkiller Base destroy? All I know is that they were in the Hosnian System . . .

 

2) Looking forward to comments about the article like I posted.

I guess I never had any doubt that Captain Phasma would be a minor note in this movie. All the press that Gwendoline Christie did is certainly misleading though.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

The article did remind me that I had been hoping for better music in the movie.

 

BTW, anyone else think it was a bit of a waste to put Max von Sydov in the movie just to have his character immediately die without the audience having any real idea who the hell he even is?

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

The article did remind me that I had been hoping for better music in the movie.

Honestly, I thought the best music for TFA was in the trailers.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

The article did remind me that I had been hoping for better music in the movie.

 

BTW, anyone else think it was a bit of a waste to put Max von Sydov in the movie just to have his character immediately die without the audience having any real idea who the hell he even is?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯