Is TSLRCM "canon"?

[Davik Kang 1]

Hello there,

 

I have just recently found out about this mod and how it restores supposed incomplete but proposed content back into KOTOR II. I have been using this mod from the time when one departs the Citadel Station on Telos, through to Korriban and part way onto Nar Shaddaa (Just been captured by Goto).

 

So I have a few questions about it if that's ok?

 

Right then:

 

1: I'm wondering about the level of canon content in this mod? Example: Was it actually proposed by Lucas Arts and Obsidian that there would definately be a playable part on Nar Shaddaa where Atton, Bao-Dur and <partymember> would fight their way past bounty hunters?

And things such as restored story plots? Is it 100% certain that they would have been part of the game (and thus the story)? Because I know that it is easy to misinterpret the context of lines of speech etc.

 

 

2: How was it found out which content was missing? By searching game files or contacting Lucas Arts/Obsidian?

 

 

3: Is it certain that the restored content would have been added should Lucas Arts and Obsidian have had longer to develop the game? Because I know sometimes in films, although they move certain scenes out of the film and into the category of 'Deleted Scenes', it is not always because of time restraints, sometimes there was a proposed scene that had been developed and properly refined, but later on discarded because it would not fit into the story as well as intended. (Example: Star Trek Nemesis: (POSSIBLE SPOILERS) There is a deleted scene where Shinzon is in the Romulan Senate, prior to being revealed to the audience via the scene on the Warbird. This was taken out because the directory wished the audience to know as much about Shinzon as Picard, therefore being surprised when he is slowly revealed.)

 

If you catch my flow on that point?

 

 

Ye so basically, is this 100% canon content? Reason I ask this is I want the story to be a pure and original as it is; to only have what was set down by the creators (Lucas Arts and Obsidian) and I do not wish a warped story. (Not sure if anyone knows what I mean by this). I do hold the story to be very important.

 

 

Just incase anyone interpreted this tone as being critic based, it was not meant this way. People have different canon/non-canonical sensitivity values; some don't mind user-generated content, some do. I am quite touchy with the user-generated content I download (depending on the game and story of course).

 

So if anyone could clear this up for me that would be great!

 

Thanks

 

[ZM90 100]

Pretty much everything in there was originally intended by Obsidian so you're good.

 

Things that didn't fit in with the final version were not restored.

 

The content was found by looking through the game's files.

 

By the way I'm someone who can't play TSL without RCM 1.8.1. Just saying .

[Davik Kang 1]

Pretty much everything in there was originally intended by Obsidian so you're good.

 

Things that didn't fit in with the final version were not restored.

 

The content was found by looking through the game's files.

 

By the way I'm someone who can't play TSL without RCM 1.8.1. Just saying .

 

Thanks for reply And awesome! I feel better playing it now lol.

 

One thing though: I have my difficulty on "difficult", but even still I seem to be ripping my enemies to shreds! Those two Twi'lek sisters on Goto's Yacht went down after only two force storms; they didn't even save the force attack!

Does TSLRCM change the damage tables? Because the difficulty system of KOTOR changes the damage doesn't it? So on easy the damage I sustain is divided by three I believe (from testing). However changing the difficulty does not seem to reduce the damage I inflict upon enemies.

 

KOTOR 1 never seemed that easy, I had similar attributes and the enemies were harder to defeat.

 

Do you know if this is a result of the mod? Or some other glitch in the game? (I am using an old 4mb exe file I believe because I am using a widescreen patch).

 

 

Thanks

[ZM90 100]

Thanks for reply And awesome! I feel better playing it now lol.

 

One thing though: I have my difficulty on "difficult", but even still I seem to be ripping my enemies to shreds! Those two Twi'lek sisters on Goto's Yacht went down after only two force storms; they didn't even save the force attack!

Does TSLRCM change the damage tables? Because the difficulty system of KOTOR changes the damage doesn't it? So on easy the damage I sustain is divided by three I believe (from testing). However changing the difficulty does not seem to reduce the damage I inflict upon enemies.

 

KOTOR 1 never seemed that easy, I had similar attributes and the enemies were harder to defeat.

 

Do you know if this is a result of the mod? Or some other glitch in the game? (I am using an old 4mb exe file I believe because I am using a widescreen patch).

 

 

Thanks

 

TSLRCM does not change the damage tables as far as I know. There wouldn't be a point unless there was a cut difficulty option that needed restoring like in K1. The TSLRCM was very careful to avoid custom content, the only custom content that I know of that actually exists in the mod are VOs for Kavee and the Taris traveler which were not done by Obsidian but that was only because Obsidian didn't have time to record voice overs for those NPCs so it was left to fans.

 

I see TSLRCM as extraordinary because it's basically the fans bringing the vision Obsidian intended for TSL to life.

[Vriff 21]

A lot of it isn't really considered canon, but is true to Obsidian's original vision.

[ZM90 100]

A lot of it isn't really considered canon, but is true to Obsidian's original vision.

 

Actually if you look at it TSLRCM for the most part expands on what is already canon, also HK Factory is canon.

[milestails 264]

TSLRCM > canon

[ZM90 100]

TSLRCM > canon

 

In my mind TSLRCM = canon since it's what Obsidian originally intended.

[Vriff 21]

In my mind TSLRCM = canon since it's what Obsidian originally intended.

The problem is, it doesn't matter what Obsidian wanted, or intended to have in TSL. If it's not in the vanilla game, or another media product (comic, book, etc) it simply isn't canon.

[Fallen Guardian 27]

The problem is, it doesn't matter what Obsidian wanted, or intended to have in TSL. If it's not in the vanilla game, or another media product (comic, book, etc) it simply isn't canon.

 

But my question is: Why is canon so important?

[Boilpoint 12]

But my question is: Why is canon so important?

 

Some people require absolute continuity in their make believe worlds. *shrug*

[Hassat Hunter 571]

But my question is: Why is canon so important?

 

My question EXACTLY.

Why the heck miss out on the great REAL TSL or M4-78EP on such a sucky reason as "it's not canon". *baffled*

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

I'm wondering about the level of canon content in this mod? Example: Was it actually proposed by Lucas Arts and Obsidian that there would definitely be a playable part on Nar Shaddaa where Atton, Bao-Dur and would fight their way past bounty hunters?

And things such as restored story plots? Is it 100% certain that they would have been part of the game (and thus the story)? Because I know that it is easy to misinterpret the context of lines of speech etc.

 

I'll propose the idea that one person very important person with TSL approves of TSLRCM and that would be Chris Avellone, lead writer of TSL. He even helped notify folks of the TSLRCM 1.8 existence when he tweeted.

 

 

If the lead writer approves of the mod, suggests playing the game with the mod, and gives kudos to the team . . . well doesn't that speak for itself?

 

 

How was it found out which content was missing? By searching game files or contacting Lucas Arts/Obsidian?

 

Mostly through diving through all of the data on the game discs. However, references to some of the cut content can be found in interviews with the creators.

 

 

Is it certain that the restored content would have been added should Lucas Arts and Obsidian have had longer to develop the game? Because I know sometimes in films, although they move certain scenes out of the film and into the category of 'Deleted Scenes', it is not always because of time restraints, sometimes there was a proposed scene that had been developed and properly refined, but later on discarded because it would not fit into the story as well as intended.

 

Keep in mind that some of the cut content was only cut due to spelling errors in the code.

 

However, is it really fair to say what would've happened in that perfect world where Obsidian had the time to finish making the game according to their original conception?

 

Have you played the original un-modded game all the way through to the end? Have you played it with TSLRCM 1.8 all the way through? After you play both through entirely, I'd be interested in your opinion.

 

Keep in mind that in order to play by YOUR rules, you wouldn't be able to touch any other mod besides TSLRCM as it wouldn't be canon.

[Vriff 21]

But my question is: Why is canon so important?

It isn't at all to myself, I think it's completely silly to be so obsessed over canon. There are some people who will literally pitch bitchfest and demean someone for playing a male exile/female revan on youtube, lol. I'm just stating the facts: Official Star Wars canon has nothing to do with the inspirations of a company that developed a game almost 8 years ago. Only what was directly released to the public in the form of Star Wars licensed goods matters. Cut content, etc does not unless it's confirmed by another licensed good or a LucasArts official. (That was the question of the thread, so there's my answer, nothing to do with my own feelings.)

[evil q 16]

It isn't at all to myself, I think it's completely silly to be so obsessed over canon.

Especially since Star Wars canon changes with the wind.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

There's actually secret coding in the game where if you name your character Meetra Surik and make her a Jedi Sentinel, then your character will follow strict canon throughout the game. Virtually every choice, combat move and armor has been predetermined to follow the canonical path.

 

It's like watching a movie or reading a book. It's weird because it's antithetical to the entire point of playing a video game...

[Desmond 4]

Kotor 2 is not a canon itself. After all it not only doesn't let you to play exectly canonical story(Meetra has a handmaiden as a companion. Which is impossible in game) but let you to be a dark side jerk(can't find another word for it. Dark path in game is somewhat stupid and plane brutal. And it has somewhat lame insted of ending...)

[Rtas Vadum 17]

Kotor 2 is not a canon itself. After all it not only doesn't let you to play exectly canonical story(Meetra has a handmaiden as a companion. Which is impossible in game) but let you to be a dark side jerk(can't find another word for it. Dark path in game is somewhat stupid and plane brutal. And it has somewhat lame insted of ending...)

 

How it is not? In spite of some facts that TOR just left in the dust, along with the game being official( I don't think there are any "Unofficial" Star Wars Games, are there? At least ones that might add to canon), it can be considered canon since the Exile is an offical character, and has some presence in the Revan novel, and TOR. As for the Handmaiden, yes, you cannot get her in the normal game, or even with TSLRCM. With a mod on this site though, it becomes quite possible.

 

And why is having the option of playing a Darkside character a bad thing? It might not be canon(which is true for most games where there is such an option - heavy bias, I would say.), but in a game like this, it works. I could name several other games that do this, but I'm certain they are quite known by now(even if it seems most don't chose the darker option).

[Desmond 4]

As for the Handmaiden, yes, you cannot get her in the normal game, or even with TSLRCM. With a mod on this site though, it becomes quite possible.

If game require mod to follow the canon story, how game can be canon?)

 

And why is having the option of playing a dark side character a bad thing? It might not be canon (which is true for most games where there is such an option - a heavy bias, I would say.), but in a game like this, it works. I could name several other games that do this, but I'm certain they are quite known by now - even if it seems most don't chose the darker option.

I didn't say that playing a dark side is a bad thing. It's just non-canon. With so many non-canonical things, it's a bit strange to ask at the first place about "does TSLRCM is 100% canon?" since game itself do not follow canon in many places.

 

The other problem with playing darkside that it looks a bit... stupid. You can't be evil manipulator as Palpatine. You simply some thug with lightsaber (It's quite a pity actually. And compared with the light sided Malachor V, the dark side playthrough of it seems unfinished. How did Darth Traya capture all of the party? What happened to Hanharr? These are some of the questions I had.)

[Rtas Vadum 17]

If game require mod to follow the canon story, how game can be canon?)

 

Even if the mod in question allows you, when playing a female exile, to have the Handmaiden in your party, just like the canon says? In a technical sense, even a patch that any game developers release, would modify a game, although they usually get around calling it that, since they would be the ones that dictate what the canon story is. But when it comes to users doing the same thing, it almost has to be labeled a mod, since it isn't the developers who made the changes - never mind if the changes are ones that the developers wanted to make, but either couldn't because of time, or for some other reason.

 

I didn't say that playing a dark side is a bad thing. It's just non-canon. With so many non-canonical things, it's a bit strange to ask at the first place about "does TSLRCM is 100% canon?" since game itself do not follow canon in many places.

 

The other problem with playing darkside that it looks a bit... stupid. You can't be evil manipulator as Palpatine. You simply some thug with lightsaber (It's quite a pity actually. And compared with the light sided Malachor V, the dark side playthrough of it seems unfinished. How did Darth Traya capture all of the party? What happened to Hanharr? These are some of the questions I had.)

 

Maybe not. But the want to avoid playing it, just because it isn't the canon story, throws away, in some ways, half of the game. One can play a lightside character all they want, but for the most part, it will stay the same. If the same person doesn't want to play the DS side of things, then aside from occasionally picking it up again, that's all there is.

 

As for what it is, acting or being at all like Palpatine isn't the point. There are ways to manipulate people in the game, but not on the same scale. Either way, the character isn't a Senator, nor are they one who has much, if anything, to do with politics. If you want manipulation, try Kreia.

 

With RCM, it explains things better. And it isn't just the DS side of things that was unfinished. You think they would've devoted time to completing one side of things for the ending, and left it at that because of the schedule? Nope. For both sides, there is little to no explanation of what you mention, at least in the regular game.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

Oh boy . . . the canon discussion again. Let me take a crack at this even though it's late over here right now. Let's try looking at this from a different viewpoint. Prepare for a wall of text.

 

a) The game is released in 2004. It was created by Obsidian which according to many reports didn't have the time to give the game the final polish it apparently needed before release. They were denied to opportunity to do a content patch which pretty hosed their attempts to fix the plot issues and many of the bugs that were there on release. Yes, there were official patches but those were mostly minor bug-fixes. Hopefully we can all agree at least on this much.

 

The formation of canon: Many of the those on the canon bandwagon like to site the "Knights of Old Republic Campaign Guide" that came out in 2008 as the be-all and end-all as the canon source. It's a nice book. I own it.

But made the authors of this book the arbiters of canon-hood.? Chris Avellone (with Ferret Baudoin) wrote Knights of the Old Republic II. The authors of this book were Rodney Thompson, Sterling Hershey, John Jackson Miller, and Abel G. Peña. I would think that canon would come from the authors of the game not from the authors of the book. But you cry out: Lucas authorized the sale of the book? I'm getting to that argument presently. We can also agree that it doesn't quite get everything right either. It states that the Handmaiden was supposed to accompany the Exile on her journey. You trying doing that in an un-modded game.

 

c) SWTOR Canon: Meetra Surik is what they call the Exile in the "The Old Republic" game which came out last year. (I'll not debate the merits or disappointments of that game here as this is a TSL thread. There are other threads here on this site for that already.) That game too is an official product. Well, there's all this stuff in the game about that character and none of that was written by Chris Avellone. Doesn't that make it not canon? Before anyone pounces on me for being a TOR hater, I own that too. . .

 

d) Continuing on canon: According to Desmond's definition of canon, it could be argued that the entire un-modded game of TSL as-is deviates from the established canon of the first game. Let's be honest here: there was a lot of retroactive tinkering with the Revan character in TSL. I'd argue this but I think that Scorchy explained that very eloquently in his walkthrough of TSL. It's a very long read but well worth the time.

 

e) There's also debate on what "Star Wars canon" is as well. Have you ever seen the Wikipedia page on it? It's a product of a maddened mind. The general gist of seems to to boil down to "only the Star Wars feature films are canon." Who is to say your concept of canon is superior to anyone else's.

 

Desmond, you didn't start this off by asking if it's canon but you continued the conversation on it so I'm directing this at you. Which canon? What is your own defintion of canon? There's too many variables here at work for any project - even if it was released by LucasArts - for it to fall into all areas of canon. It's impossible. Instead of this thread getting derailed further - and making me split the thread into an excruciating discussion on canon and the original line of thinking - I make you a proposal. Play TSL through according to your nebulous definition of canon and then try out the mod.

 

And finally: Just remember . . . it's just a game.

[Desmond 4]

Situation is getting ankward..

 

Then better it leave here. I didn't mean that game or TSLRCM is bad. In fact I meant that TSLRCM is really good mod and to not use it by hiding under "not canon" is simply stupid. Maybe this miscommunication is happend due to my limited knowladge in English. THen sorry

[JK JA's Jaden Korr 30]

There's actually secret coding in the game where if you name your character Meetra Surik and make her a Jedi Sentinel, then your character will follow strict canon throughout the game. Virtually every choice, combat move and armor has been predetermined to follow the canonical path.

 

It's like watching a movie or reading a book. It's weird because it's antithetical to the entire point of playing a video game...

Wait, wait, wait, VP are you serious. Has anyone ever tried this, is this some secret easter egg.

[Darth_Sapiens 90]

Wait, wait, wait, VP are you serious. Has anyone ever tried this, is this some secret easter egg.

i have a feeling he isn't

EDIT: forgot the all important "n't"

Edited September 9, 2012 by Darth_Sapiens

[Kerk 12]

You know, when it comes to anything that has to do with Star Wars, one should bother with canon very little. There is just tooooo much stuff made by thousands of people and piled into one universe. As a result, you get hundreds of inconsistencies, and trying to explain them away and create a harmony out of this utter chaos will make anyone look like a giant dork.

 

Nonetheless, I like SW, and I have my own way of dealing with inconsistencies - simply accept what makes sense, and deny what does not, while enjoying the ride.