Mellowtron11

What did the Jedi Exile do while in exile?

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Seriously, what did the Exile do in while wandering around the outer rim? Work for food, become a laborer, or something else? Star Wars lore never really goes over what the Exile did during this time.

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Probably odd jobs and the such. Maybe a merc depending on the character. An enforcer. Ran a backwater world bar. Be a tour guide to core world denizens on wild planets. A miner. A travelling chef. A field worker or  farm laborer - which eventually leads to the destination of Telos.

This is the kind of thing I like to fill in myself, instead of having it defined for me. I don't like it when everything has to be filled in. Next thing we know we'll have some novel or comic about Meetra Surik (or whatever the name is) the day laborer who volunteered to go to Telos to grow muja fruit.

The one defining point, though, is that whatever it was the Exile did during that time, it had absolutely noting to do with the Jedi/Sith, or the Force.

My Exile probably kicked back in some back water world and read everything in whatever library. Sometimes went fishing. Hunting. Maybe some skilled labor. Moved on when he got bored. Finally signed on for a job on Telos just to see how much Malak screwed up that world.

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Yeah I agree.  This is one of the reasons I prefer the Exile over Revan.  The last five years of the Exile's life is a mystery, and we get to fill it in with whatever we want.  With K1 it was fine until the revelation which is one of my favorite moments in any media.  But before that our character could have done anything before the events of K1.  But after the revelation you are a given a predefined backstory.  That's why I hate when video game companies canonize our favorite characters.  They are never what we envisioned. 

Like the Exile my favorite KOTOR protagonist.  In my head canon he is smart ass cocky Jedi.  Then the official "canon" made him a Revan cheerleader who died like a chump, and has been keeping Revan alive for the past 300 years.  Also don't get me started with what they did with Revan.  They made him leave his pregnant wife behind while going on a crusade, and letting her and her child eventually die without knowing his fate.  This is why I ignore SWTOR canon.  In my canon Revan and the Exile went to the Outer Rim kicked the unknown enemy's ass and came back to Republic space to take care of their obligations.  Revan reunited with Bastila and got to see his child.  The Exile hooked up with Briana had kids, and along with Atton and the rest of the 'Lost Jedi' rebuilt the Order.

That's why I like 'The Elder Scrolls' series.  They never say what the fate of the previous hero was.  It's like with the Dragon Age games.  Some fans want the Grey Warden who was the hero of the first and best game of the series canonized, and I tell them "Oh no they don't."  Don't they remember Revan, and although I never played them but know their fate Shepard from the Mass Effect series?

 

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On 1/2/2020 at 9:53 PM, Talyn82 said:

But after the revelation you are a given a predefined backstory.  That's why I hate when video game companies canonize our favorite characters.  They are never what we envisioned. 

 

Had these games been written in the 80s or 90s this would have never happened. The spirit was different then. More open ended because that was when what I called the golden age of role playing and infinite variations was the rule.  One of the writers of the Dragonlance series stated that he didn't care that if some of the stories that spun out of the original Dragon Lance books conflicted, because that is what mythology and classic lore has always been like, some accounts don't line up with others.

Dungeons and Dragons and other table top rpgs focused on the player's experience and their stories.

Today you have people who want to be told what the characters are, the characters and their backgrounds written out for them. People who wanted Revan written for them actually used the word "closure" in wanting to know what happened to Revan. So the corporate powers that be indulged them. 

Kevin James Anderson, one of the authors of Tales of the Jedi, even had a suggestion through one of the characters of the Jedi Academy that the time after the Golden Age of the Sith be left largely unknown, or be just legends- funny how Disney is doing that, however, I do not like the idea of these movies they are making of the Old Republic. What else are they going to ruin? What's worse you got those who dogmatically cling to lore like it is linear, not a  rich tapestry,  are going to love the movies and argue that mods and viewpoints must align with the lore, etc.

Remember the Dragon Broke that came out of Morrowind? That was the old guard who respected variations of lore going out while the new guard of linear continuity stepped in. That's why there's hints that Morrowind was supposed to be have at least two different paths, siding with the Tribunal, or with Dagoth Ur. You were supposed to be able to speak with the Heartwights - and they were telling you it wasn't too late to change your mind and join them instead. That's how Mad God was able to write his mod and work so well.

And today we have Revan who, I heard, was made to go dark side again in the MMO and so he could be killed, and the Exile, his number one fangirl getting stabbed in the back so she could be a ghost cheer leader for poor Revan carrying on a mental battle with the so called emperor of the retconned(yes) Sith Empire. (KJA meant for the new Sith Empire be the one re-established by Exar Kun, not something lurking in the background somewhere.) K1 and K2 borrowed heavily from the Tales of the Jedi.  K1 was supposed to be a sequel. "Dev's intentions" of a Sith Empire that survived Marka Ragnos is retcon to the Tales of the Jedi.

That's why I am cautious of asking what did the character do during this time, someone will be all to glad to fill that in for everyone.

My Exile would laugh at the "canon" version. Right, like Revan would be stupid enough to go off by himself deep into no where. And I'll just tag alone and be his cheering squad. What spice are you chewing? Yeah, he's a smart ass, too. He keeps Visas Mar around. 

I much prefer the non-restored ending of K2, and the purpose of rebuilding the Jedi Order. Or Sith. It has a greater purpose, imo, than just sending the Exile off to Revan to fight some Sith Empire. There's scarier stuff out there. And Kreia's sacrifice would better serve the more noble purpose of restrarting a new Force wielding order.

I say have fun with what the Exile was doing during those years of wandering, with only the guidelines that it didn't involve the Force, and ending up on the Harbinger on the way to Telos for the Argricultural Corps.

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1 hour ago, Ebony Moon said:

Had these games been written in the 80s or 90s this would have never happened. The spirit was different then. More open ended because that was when what I called the golden age of role playing and infinite variations was the rule.  One of the writers of the Dragonlance series stated that he didn't care that if some of the stories that spun out of the original Dragon Lance books conflicted, because that is what mythology and classic lore has always been like, some accounts don't line up with others.

Dungeons and Dragons and other table top rpgs focused on the player's experience and their stories.

Today you have people who want to be told what the characters are, the characters and their backgrounds written out for them. People who wanted Revan written for them actually used the word "closure" in wanting to know what happened to Revan. So the corporate powers that be indulged them. 

Kevin James Anderson, one of the authors of Tales of the Jedi, even had a suggestion through one of the characters of the Jedi Academy that the time after the Golden Age of the Sith be left largely unknown, or be just legends- funny how Disney is doing that, however, I do not like the idea of these movies they are making of the Old Republic. What else are they going to ruin? What's worse you got those who dogmatically cling to lore like it is linear, not a  rich tapestry,  are going to love the movies and argue that mods and viewpoints must align with the lore, etc.

Remember the Dragon Broke that came out of Morrowind? That was the old guard who respected variations of lore going out while the new guard of linear continuity stepped in. That's why there's hints that Morrowind was supposed to be have at least two different paths, siding with the Tribunal, or with Dagoth Ur. You were supposed to be able to speak with the Heartwights - and they were telling you it wasn't too late to change your mind and join them instead. That's how Mad God was able to write his mod and work so well.

And today we have Revan who, I heard, was made to go dark side again in the MMO and so he could be killed, and the Exile, his number one fangirl getting stabbed in the back so she could be a ghost cheer leader for poor Revan carrying on a mental battle with the so called emperor of the retconned(yes) Sith Empire. (KJA meant for the new Sith Empire be the one re-established by Exar Kun, not something lurking in the background somewhere.) K1 and K2 borrowed heavily from the Tales of the Jedi.  K1 was supposed to be a sequel. "Dev's intentions" of a Sith Empire that survived Marka Ragnos is retcon to the Tales of the Jedi.

That's why I am cautious of asking what did the character do during this time, someone will be all to glad to fill that in for everyone.

My Exile would laugh at the "canon" version. Right, like Revan would be stupid enough to go off by himself deep into no where. And I'll just tag alone and be his cheering squad. What spice are you chewing? Yeah, he's a smart ass, too. He keeps Visas Mar around. 

I much prefer the non-restored ending of K2, and the purpose of rebuilding the Jedi Order. Or Sith. It has a greater purpose, imo, than just sending the Exile off to Revan to fight some Sith Empire. There's scarier stuff out there. And Kreia's sacrifice would better serve the more noble purpose of restrarting a new Force wielding order.

I say have fun with what the Exile was doing during those years of wandering, with only the guidelines that it didn't involve the Force, and ending up on the Harbinger on the way to Telos for the Argricultural Corps.

Yep, don't know why "fans" today want everything written out for them, instead of using their own imagination and filling in the blanks.  I heard of the Dragonlance series but never read any of them.  I think when I was in High School I had a copy of one don't remember.  Yeah that's what I like about D&D even though if I don't know every single rule.  I always wanted a movie or tv series based on the Old Republic not necessarily based on the games, but I wanted one done by George Lucas, and do not want Disney touching that era which according to news they are.

Ah Morrowind one of my top all time favorite rpgs.  How I really wanted to join Dagoth Ur, slay the Tribunal and kick out the Empire.  I remember the first time my character contracted the disease.  I went straight to Red Mountain cause Dagoth Gares told me so, and after having to cheat to get by the higher level enemies Dagoth Ur literally said "Nerevar, what are you doing here?"  "You do not have the tools."  That was when it was spoiled to me that the character was the Nerevarine.

But yeah I agree in rpg's there should always be multiple paths to accomplish goals.  That's why I love the KOTOR games.  Two paths light or dark.  But yeah if by the Dragon Break you mean when the Morrowind fans clashed with the old Daggerfall fans than yeah I remember.  The  same thing happen when Oblivion came out.

In the MMO Darth Revan is split from what I understand.  Physically he is darkside, spiritually he is lightside.  And Meetra is keeping him alive by healing constantly healing him.  Also I heard HK-47 is in the game he protects Revan.  I played a little of the MMO but never made it that far.  So I never saw any of that.  But yeah I heard that the longtime fans of the Baldur's Gate games hated it when BioWare canonized their characters.  See?  Die hard rpg fans do not want this.  I didn't care if they never said what happened to Revan or the Exile, if not make a direct sequel I'd rather use my imagination.  My mod will be a KOTOR fan's vision of what may have happened.  Oh yeah and in my story both Revan and the Exile don't immediately leave after the first two games end.  They both have to take care of business first.

After reading Tales of the Jedi for the first time a couple of months ago.  I did some research and the original KOTOR was going to be based on the comics, but BioWare could not get permission to use characters like Exar, Ulic, or Nomi.  That's why Revan is so much like Exar, and Bastila is somewhat like Nomi what with the Battle Meditation.  And of course the Exile being cut off from the Force was taken from Ulic.  In both K1 and K2 they mention Exar, Ulic, and Nomi by name.  That Jedi master on Nar Shaddaa in K2 says the Jedi Council never took responsibility for Exar, Ulic, Revan, Malak, and the Exile.  So I like how they all tie in.

Man the SWTOR canon made Revan a dumbass.  Like I said before in my mod both Revan and the Exile have to take care of stuff.  Like for example rebuilding the Jedi Temple if you were a lighside Exile.  Never seen the restored ending for K2.  I love that game just as is all broken and incomplete.  The restored content is a nice bonus and I do eventually someday what to play through it.  But not anytime soon.  Right now I am busy with the mod.

After reading Tales of the Jedi I really liked Ulic's story, and how after he was cut off from the Force he exiled himself to an uninhabited planet, to reflect on his war crimes.  I imagine the Exile could have followed a similar path.  Or not he could have made independent porn lol.  But I like your idea.  That's why I prefer characters to be non canonized like in K2.  Revan could be lightside or darkside, male or female.  It was up to the player.  That's how it should be.

 

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1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

Yep, don't know why "fans" today want everything written out for them, instead of using their own imagination and filling in the blanks. 

.....

After reading Tales of the Jedi I really liked Ulic's story, and how after he was cut off from the Force he exiled himself to an uninhabited planet, to reflect on his war crimes.  I imagine the Exile could have followed a similar path.  Or not he could have made independent porn lol.  But I like your idea.  That's why I prefer characters to be non canonized like in K2.  Revan could be lightside or darkside, male or female.  It was up to the player.  That's how it should be.

 

There's a certain set of fans who tend to want to keep the lore like a museum piece, not to be sullied by independent imagination. They want the story to be kept perfect and in complete continuity. You see that a lot in today's Morrowind fandom. I have seen it here and in some forums. They want to keep the Tribunal in sacred awe in a museum. Lore isn't supposed to be like that, it's supposed to be dynamic and living. Vibrant. Like everyone had impressions of those old great myth makers the Greeks. Everyone assumed their classic statues were pure, pristine, and serene and unmovable in time. Research revealed that the Greeks painted those statues in brilliant colors and the Greeks were a dynamic people, not ivory towered scholars. The devs are god, their words, whether those words make it into the game, or is fourth walled in later on, are divine decree. Unless they had left the team. Like Michael Kirkbride. He later said that Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls, was supposed to be open ended, the player's experience. i.e. the Coda. The so called purists derided him.

I came across a bit that had been posted on 4chan. One of Morrowind's writers left the project because he was opposed to how Bethesda wanted to make Morrowind with a strict continuity. That was when corporate thinking started in video gaming, I suspect. They wanted a linear plot to continue a series.

Yeah, the original writers of some of these games took a turn or two at table top rpg. In fact, the guy on the KOTOR team named Revan took the name from one of his villains in his old Dungeons and Dragons world. Which is absolutely awesome. Because that's how I named my first character in KOTOR, after one of my old anti-paladins in my game world tthat I DM'd. Dark sider. Played him like he was going to become a Sith Lord. Because why not? I always wanted to play a Sith Lord but no GM would let me. I had absolutely no idea what this game was about, I was completely un spoilered. And did it deliver.

I wonder, exactly why was it declined that KOTOR could use Nomi and the other characters? One would thnk Dark Horse, or the writers would be thrilled, as well as welcome the income. But, I wonder, if the writers of The Tales of the Jedi saw what was proposed- this "dev's intentions" of a Sith Empire that would have survived Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh?

I bet Kevin James Anderson said no. Because that would have made the characters Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun pointless if some Sith near gods, or some grotty old Sith Emperor was in the dark and Exar Kun not THE Dark Lord of the Sith. The theme of the Golden Age of the Sith is that empires cannot last under the divisive rule of dark siders, but the dark flame was passed on to fallen Jedi of the modern galaxy. The retcon goes against that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ebony Moon said:

There's a certain set of fans who tend to want to keep the lore like a museum piece, not to be sullied by independent imagination. They want the story to be kept perfect and in complete continuity. You see that a lot in today's Morrowind fandom. I have seen it here and in some forums. They want to keep the Tribunal in sacred awe in a museum. Lore isn't supposed to be like that, it's supposed to be dynamic and living. Vibrant. Like everyone had impressions of those old great myth makers the Greeks. Everyone assumed their classic statues were pure, pristine, and serene and unmovable in time. Research revealed that the Greeks painted those statues in brilliant colors and the Greeks were a dynamic people, not ivory towered scholars. The devs are god, their words, whether those words make it into the game, or is fourth walled in later on, are divine decree. Unless they had left the team. Like Michael Kirkbride. He later said that Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls, was supposed to be open ended, the player's experience. i.e. the Coda. The so called purists derided him.

I came across a bit that had been posted on 4chan. One of Morrowind's writers left the project because he was opposed to how Bethesda wanted to make Morrowind with a strict continuity. That was when corporate thinking started in video gaming, I suspect. They wanted a linear plot to continue a series.

Yeah, the original writers of some of these games took a turn or two at table top rpg. In fact, the guy on the KOTOR team named Revan took the name from one of his villains in his old Dungeons and Dragons world. Which is absolutely awesome. Because that's how I named my first character in KOTOR, after one of my old anti-paladins in my game world tthat I DM'd. Dark sider. Played him like he was going to become a Sith Lord. Because why not? I always wanted to play a Sith Lord but no GM would let me. I had absolutely no idea what this game was about, I was completely un spoilered. And did it deliver.

I wonder, exactly why was it declined that KOTOR could use Nomi and the other characters? One would thnk Dark Horse, or the writers would be thrilled, as well as welcome the income. But, I wonder, if the writers of The Tales of the Jedi saw what was proposed- this "dev's intentions" of a Sith Empire that would have survived Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh?

I bet Kevin James Anderson said no. Because that would have made the characters Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun pointless if some Sith near gods, or some grotty old Sith Emperor was in the dark and Exar Kun not THE Dark Lord of the Sith. The theme of the Golden Age of the Sith is that empires cannot last under the divisive rule of dark siders, but the dark flame was passed on to fallen Jedi of the modern galaxy. The retcon goes against that.

 

 

Michael Kirkbride was a visionary he wrote most of the metaphysical lore in Morrowind.  I think Bethesda took a turn for the worse when he left.  I mean Skyrim is not that bad.  I still play it I just don't do any of the quests I just play it to rp.  But yeah I agree the fanatics act like the lore is sacred and cannot be altered or questioned.  All this talk about Morrowind is making me want to reinstall it.  How I mis House Telvanni and House Dagoth.  I once had an idea for Skyrim of some half insane left over Dreamer from Morrowind, who was rebuilding the Sixth House in Windhelm.  

Oh I never been to 4Chan but I know sjw's hate it so I should go there lol.

That's cool about how Revan got his name and how you named your character.  The Jedi on Dantooine think they're so clever they renamed my current character, Raven lol.  But when I first played KOTOR I knew nothing about it only that it took place 4000 years before the movie, and even though up to that point I had never seen a SW movie, read a SW novel, or played a SW game.  I had heard the music from the movies, and I love the music.  So when I saw a trailer at gamestop and heard the music I was moved.  Here's a fun fact when I went to buy KOTOR for the original Xbox they were sold out, and recommended to me a game I had never heard of called 'Morrowind.'  Though I got hooked on MW I did purchase eventually KOTOR and the rest is history.

Oh and one of my favorite moment in gaming history besides Gabriel Belmont becoming Dracula, is of course the revelation in the original KOTOR.  In KOTOR 2 my favorite scene is when the Exile reunites the council on Dantooine.  All this talk of KOTOR is making me want to play both games.  BUT!  I must focus on the mod.

Aside from SWTOR, the KOTOR games are a continuation of the 'Tales of the Jedi' comics in my opinion.  For the most part it's been keeping with the lore set by the comics.  The only retcon aside from SWTOR I can remember, is in K2 when speaking to the Mandalorians on Dxun.  One of them says they will never follow another Jedi after their alliance with Exar Kun.  In the comics they served Ulic not Exar Kun.

But even before I read the comics and during my playthroughs I had already known a bit of who Exar and Ulic were.  I knew Exar Kun had built the first double bladed lightsaber, and due to the description on the Qel Droma robes in K1.  I knew Ulic had killed his brother and that the robes had passed on to a relative.

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The fanatics miss the point of the game being fun.

I had read the Tales of the Jedi shortly before playing KOTOR and recognized a lot of it in the game.

Actually it is technically correct that the Mandalorians were in allegiance with Exar Kun because Ulic was supposed to answer to Exar. Even if Mandalore didn't know at first who Exar Kun was. Because of the deception practiced by the three- Droma, Kun, and Aleema Keto, and how the war against the Republic was conducted, and the Mandalorians themselves being nearly destroyed, I can't see how the Mandalorians would have allowed themselves later to be tricked again or used by the Sith. They aren't stupid. According to clasical warfare there was plenty of reasons for the Mandalorians to attack the Republic again, which is where Revan comes in decades later. At that point the Mandalorians would see the Sith and Jedi as being two sides of the same faction and to get entangled with them meant destruction of their clans. Why they attacked the Republic later would be out of revenge, to make the Clans stronger, and simple expansionism as the new clans grew under the new Mandalore.

Well, anyways, not to derail this thread completely, can you imagine the Exile being a Hutt enforcer during those years of wandering? Hanging around places like Tatooine and being a smuggler? 
 

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2 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

The fanatics miss the point of the game being fun.

I had read the Tales of the Jedi shortly before playing KOTOR and recognized a lot of it in the game.

Actually it is technically correct that the Mandalorians were in allegiance with Exar Kun because Ulic was supposed to answer to Exar. Even if Mandalore didn't know at first who Exar Kun was. Because of the deception practiced by the three- Droma, Kun, and Aleema Keto, and how the war against the Republic was conducted, and the Mandalorians themselves being nearly destroyed, I can't see how the Mandalorians would have allowed themselves later to be tricked again or used by the Sith. They aren't stupid. According to clasical warfare there was plenty of reasons for the Mandalorians to attack the Republic again, which is where Revan comes in decades later. At that point the Mandalorians would see the Sith and Jedi as being two sides of the same faction and to get entangled with them meant destruction of their clans. Why they attacked the Republic later would be out of revenge, to make the Clans stronger, and simple expansionism as the new clans grew under the new Mandalore.

Well, anyways, not to derail this thread completely, can you imagine the Exile being a Hutt enforcer during those years of wandering? Hanging around places like Tatooine and being a smuggler? 
 

That's the beauty of not knowing what the Exile had been doing for the past five years.  You can make up whatever you want.  I like the idea of an evil aligned Exile working as an enforcer for a Hutt, and who wouldn't hire an ex-Jedi they are known to be tough, and even though Kreia says that when a Jedi is stripped from the Force they are left vulnerable.  The Exile learned how to live without it.  That's what makes him unique, and why Kreia sought him out.

Before reading the 'Tales of the Jedi' comics and liking how Ulic exiled himself.  My backstory for my Exile was that he was a smuggler for the past five years.  Since my Exile is good aligned he is still a cocky smart ass, and he has no problem threatening thugs.  That's how I play him even though sometimes when he threatens thugs he may get some DS points.  Basically my character is Han Solo when he was cool.  Before Disney ruined him.  

As for the Mandalorians in the comics I liked that Mandalore was very loyal to Ulic.  I liked when Ulic's wife betrayed him, and told Mandalore that Ulic had betrayed him.  Mandalore did not believe her and did everything he could to find out the truth.  That is how I plan to make Canderous in my mod during the Revan portion of it.  Mandalorians after all do have a sense of honor even though we may not understand their methods.  But I agree, I can't see the Sith convincing them to attack the Republic.  But maybe just maybe they had a building hatred towards the Republic, and when the Sith came they jumped at the offer?  Well in my mod DS Revan respects Canderous even if just because he is key to Revan's goals.

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22 minutes ago, Talyn82 said:

That's the beauty of not knowing what the Exile had been doing for the past five years.  You can make up whatever you want.  I like the idea of an evil aligned Exile working as an enforcer for a Hutt, and who wouldn't hire an ex-Jedi they are known to be tough, and even though Kreia says that when a Jedi is stripped from the Force they are left vulnerable.  The Exile learned how to live without it.  That's what makes him unique, and why Kreia sought him out.

I find the part about any Jedi without the Force to be vulnerable to be somewhat an exaggeration, thought it is most likely the case in more inexperienced or the more run of the mill Jedi trained by the Council. A seasoned Jedi who has worked any time outside the Enclave, Temple, or the archives, is likely to have some skills to fall back on. some have had to do that working undercover. I think it is more the case that they adhere so much to the belief that the Force is end all be all and many rely too much on it. It's the decision to turn away from the Force and have nothing more to do with it is what makes the Exile unique. Although I don't really see in my Exile that it was fear that made him turn away. He was just tired of Revan and all of the control stuff. Though I don't go with this thing about Revan using Force techniques to make others loyal to him. It's too gimicky. K2 was rather taking license with Revan in a lot of ways, imo, changing what Revan really was, or, what I saw Revan as in K1. But that's another story.

Yeah, that whole thing with Aleema and Ulic never really telling Mandalore about Exar Kun before Exar Kun showed up by holo and bossing everyone around made me feel that the Mandalorians would never trust the Jedi or the Sith ever again, no matter the reason or situation. Just being in an expansionist phase of bringing the clans back after the ruin of the Exar Kun war and having a taste of warring against the Republic, and revenge as well is more than enough for the Mandalorians to rise again, first testing the Republic by invading worlds just outside Republic territories as Canderous said. In the comics, they had Rohan, the Mandalorian who left the clans, say that the numbers don't add up, the purpose of this character was that Mandalore was taking orders, or at least intel from the supposed Sith Empire. No, no, no. SMH. A warrior culture on the rise is expansionist by nature, and to test the target by taking territory just outside the Republic bit by bit is a standard strategy., also giving them a chance to slowly build up for a massive offensive. The Jedi Council was absolutely wrong in not doing anything about it.

Yeah, a Hutt enforcer, a smuggler, or, for a light sided Exile, another option could be working for a medical corps. Volunteer work wherever it was needed among refugees of the past war. Maybe making up in small ways for the destruction of Malachor V.

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The part about a Jedi being vulnerable without the Force.  That's what I assume Kreia meant when Atton asks her he always thought Jedi were supposed to be tough.  I assume he the Exile at that time looked weak.  The way Kreia describes it sounds traumatic.  I mean look at Ulic Qel Droma in the comics.  When he was stripped it looked painful.  Afterwards he thought he would never be of any use to anyone again without the Force.  That's part of the reason why he exiled himself aside from reflecting on his war crimes.  It's like Darth Sion says the Exile is a broken Jedi.  He also says that the Force is a blade and without it one is defenseless.  This is what he tells the Exile on Malachor during their final confrontation.    According to Atton even with the Force Jedi are not impossible to be killed by non Jedi.  One just has to be smart about it.  

I always thought that after the Exile had set off the mass shadow reactor on Malachor he was then instantly cut off from the Force?  Because he had done such a horrendous act it is like Atris said he had lost himself.  That's what I always believed had happened.  He then viewed that as punishment and exiled himself.  Like when Ulic killed his brother Cay and Nomi stripped him of the Force.  

A volunteer medic that's another good idea.

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It seems to imply that the Exile cut away from the Force voluntarily at that point. And Kreia says it was out of fear. "Because you were afraid."

Atton's views may be a little colored by his experience. He had gotten to see the Jedi as defenseless because he had gotten adept at killing them. Or at least killing Jedi who had grown up sheltered in the Temple or Enclave. And it's compounded by his desire to atone somehow for killing so many. Plus the Exile is seemingly still cut off from the Force, something that Atton had to be wary of when assassinating Jedi- Force powers. Still, it was an odd question to ask Kreia about someone who had proven quite adept at fighting through a bunch of droids and Sith on Peragus.

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Yeah that question that Atton asks Kreia always bugged me.  I mean the Exile fought all the droids on Peragus II, and held his own against Sith assassins.  While Atton was comfortable on the administration level.  Even T3 did more than him.  I just thought someone could answer me that question.  As for when Kreia says the Exile cut himself off from the Force out of fear.  I can't recall that.  But when I eventually replay the game when I get to the Exile portion of my mod I will check it out.  I need to look up a transcript of all of Kreia's dialogue in the game so I can set the tone for Revan.  I want Revan to be like Kreia/Palpatine.  Since Kreia says the Mandalorians taught Revan and Malak how to be ruthless in war, and I always saw Revan as the manipulator and Malak the muscle.

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Kreia says that at Dantooine, after the Exile and Kreia meet/confront the Jedi. That's when he Exile is still on the ground after the Jedi Council attempted to Force Block the Exile. Kreia kneels by the Exile and says something to the effect of, "Now I understand your choice at Malachor. You left because you were afraid." Don't remember the exact words.

2 hours ago, Talyn82 said:

I always saw Revan as the manipulator and Malak the muscle.

Excellent comparison. An aside, I get tired of the whole "Malak was an idiot. Revan was sooo much better." K2 is very much guilty of this, the writers seem to have been oblivious to the unspoken nuances of K1. Don't even get me started on the Miller comics on how they treated Malak. Revan and Malak were very complimentary to each other. If Malak was such a moron, why did Revan have him as his closest friend? Malak represents direct action and direct thinking, which is preferable in many situations.

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1 minute ago, Ebony Moon said:

Kreia says that at Dantooine, after the Exile and Kreia meet/confront the Jedi. That's when he Exile is still on the ground after the Jedi Council attempted to Force Black the Exile. She kneels by the Exile and says something to the effect of, "Now I understand your choice at Malachor. You left because you were afraid." Don't remember the exact words.

Excellent comparison. An aside, I get tired of the whole "Malak was an idiot. Revan was sooo much better." K2 is very much guilty of this, the writers seem to have been oblivious to the unspoken nuances of K1. Revan and Malak were very complimentary to each other. If Malak was such a moron, why did Revan have him as his closest friend? Malak represents direct action and direct thinking, which is preferable in many situations.

For the first part how can I forget that moment in K2.  It is one of my favorite scenes in that game.

As for Malak you know like you I am a Malak fan, and if it was possible I would have preferred to save him.  Or if he died turn into a Force ghost like Ulic Qel Droma in Tales of the Jedi.  But I agree Malak got the short end of the stick.  But even in K1 they made Malak seem the dumber of the two.  Even though Malak was the second most powerful Force user in the Sith.  I mean there's a reason Revan made him his apprentice besides being old friends.  But I also agree in K2 they did make him sound extremely dumb while glorifying Revan.  But characters like the Exile and Kavar who are both known as tacticians in their own right according to the Mandalorians.  They should know that in war sometimes direct action and direct thinking is necessary.  But when most people reflect on both KOTOR games thay all remember Revan.  Malak, the Exile, Kreia, Darth SIon and the rest are all secondary characters to his greatness.  But don't worry in my mod Malak is not forgotten.

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1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

But even in K1 they made Malak seem the dumber of the two.

I don't think they did in K1. All humor aside, it was emphasized that Malak was dangerous and was growing stronger. He was a real threat to the Republic. Before the days of Palpatine, I consider Darth Malak to be the most successful Sith Lord because he came so close to conquering the Republic.

Master Dorak commented that Malak wasn't the strategic genius that Revan was. Master Zhar said that of the two Malak was the follower. None of this means that Malak was stupid. Malkak was smart and competent enough to command Admrial Karath's allegiance, Admiral Karath lending his strategic know how to the Sith Fleet as Admiral Thrawn did for Palpatine. No one has ever criticized  Palpatine for not being a genius at strategy. As for Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun being masters of strategy, that's debatable. Ulic insisted on doing his own thing against Exar's warnings., and Exar himself was rather unstable.

One might cite the destruction of Taris as a sign of Malak's stupidity, or lack of finesse, but was it really a strategic blunder? In the face of what Malak was dealing with at the time, it was a matter of expedition. A necessary sacrifice.  As for the infamous destruction of Telos, even K2 says that it was Revan who initially wanted Telos destroyed because that was where the Jedi were going to hide.

There was the humor of HK-47 first calling Malak a meatbag, but HK admitted that he rather liked Malak because Malak was brutal and efficient. 

Malak was the one who learned of the real powers of the Star Forge. He calls you stupid for seeing the Star Forge as only a means of producing more ships. And think of the groundwork Malak had laid in turning most of the fleet against Revan so when the opportunity came to betray Revan, Malak effortlessly stepped in and executed it. That was a stroke of genius. I see my dark side Revan, in that final duel, telling Malak that he was impressed with how Malak had accomplished that.

Bastila warns you, not in so many words but in effect, to not be too confident or cocky about facing Malak.

About that scene in K2 where Kreia confronts the Jedi Masters, if you are playing a female Exile, she tells the Jedi that "You will not harm her." That was awesome. Yeah, that was a good scene. Another part that really stood out to me was when Kreia first walks in, and touches the tree planter before she sits down. In that simple gesture all the weight and weariness she is carrying and what Dantooine really meant for her comes through. It makes her so human.

 

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55 minutes ago, Ebony Moon said:

I don't think they did in K1. All humor aside, it was emphasized that Malak was dangerous and was growing stronger. He was a real threat to the Republic. Before the days of Palpatine, I consider Darth Malak to be the most successful Sith Lord because he came so close to conquering the Republic.

Master Dorak commented that Malak wasn't the strategic genius that Revan was. Master Zhar said that of the two Malak was the follower. None of this means that Malak was stupid. Malkak was smart and competent enough to command Admrial Karath's allegiance, Admiral Karath lending his strategic know how to the Sith Fleet as Admiral Thrawn did for Palpatine. No one has ever criticized  Palpatine for not being a genius at strategy. As for Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun being masters of strategy, that's debatable. Ulic insisted on doing his own thing against Exar's warnings., and Exar himself was rather unstable.

One might cite the destruction of Taris as a sign of Malak's stupidity, or lack of finesse, but was it really a strategic blunder? In the face of what Malak was dealing with at the time, it was a matter of expedition. A necessary sacrifice.  As for the infamous destruction of Telos, even K2 says that it was Revan who initially wanted Telos destroyed because that was where the Jedi were going to hide.

There was the humor of HK-47 first calling Malak a meatbag, but HK admitted that he rather liked Malak because Malak was brutal and efficient. 

Malak was the one who learned of the real powers of the Star Forge. He calls you stupid for seeing the Star Forge as only a means of producing more ships. And think of the groundwork Malak had laid in turning most of the fleet against Revan so when the opportunity came to betray Revan, Malak effortlessly stepped in and executed it. That was a stroke of genius. I see my dark side Revan, in that final duel, telling Malak that he was impressed with how Malak had accomplished that.

Bastila warns you, not in so many words but in effect, to not be too confident or cocky about facing Malak.

About that scene in K2 where Kreia confronts the Jedi Masters, if you are playing a female Exile, she tells the Jedi that "You will not harm her." That was awesome. Yeah, that was a good scene. Another part that really stood out to me was when Kreia first walks in, and touches the tree planter before she sits down. In that simple gesture all the weight and weariness she is carrying and what Dantooine really meant for her comes through. It makes her so human.

 

All I meant was that even in the original they put Revan above Malak.  But both were considered big losses to the order.  That many of the Council still wondered if they had made the right decision in meditating instead of fighting.  But like I said before I am a Malak fan and agree with everything you say about him.  It's just in history he will always be considered the lesser of the two for his lack of finesse.  I mean in K2 which takes place five years after K1,  Revan not Malak is remembered fondly, even if you set him as a darksider.  I mean Briana says that Revan was revered by her people even while he slaughtered them in the thousands.  I mean according to the galaxy Revan could do no wrong.  That's why I prefer K1 Revan over K2 Revan.  In K1 he was shown in a not so perfect light.  But after K2 I wonder if the whole thing was not planned by him.  Especially if playing darkside.  But like I said before in my mod Malak will be remembered if playing the lightside. 

About Exar Kun and Uiic Qel Droma.  I think you misunderstood what I wrote.  I did not say they were known as good tacticians by the Mandalorians.  I said that both Master Kavar and the Exile were known as good tacticians by the Mandalorians.  When you first meet Kavar on Onderon with Mandalore.  Mandalore respects him and says he always thought that it would have been Kavar and not Revan who led the Republic.  But then again there is some inconsistency in the lore.  Cause either in K1 or K2 Canderous says that before the war the Mandalorians had never seen Jedi in battle.  As for the Exile either Mandalore or one of his men refer to him as a good tactician during the war.

About HK-47.  HK himself says when he regains his full memory that Malak was the first organic he ever called meatbag.  He says it made Malak furious and that Revan made it apart of his programming.

I agree Malak was smart in the vision Revan and Bastila have when they first land on Dantooine.  It seemed like Malak was the cautious one of the two, and warned Revan if they entered the ruins they can never go back to the Council.  And yes, he did unlock the full power of the Star Forge.  Although I seem to remember Master Dorak saying that after the Mandalorian wars both Revan and Malak disappeared.  Then they returned at the head of a massive invasion fleet.  The ships were of an alien design they had never seen before.  So maybe both unlocked the power of the Star Forge.  But maybe since the Star Forge drain the Force out of Force users.  Maybe Revan uncovered this and only created as many ships as necessary for a one time deal.

Yes, there are many scenes in both games that are great, and yes I noticed that part in the scene.  

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1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

It's just in history he will always be considered the lesser of the two for his lack of finesse

This is true. Some people take that as a sign that Malak was simply incompetent, or something, without understanding what was really said.

1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

That's why I prefer K1 Revan over K2 Revan.

I do too. The difference is subtle yet profound. They give Revan all this credit and glorify him, yet they don't realize that Revan had accomplished some degree of what the Exile is known for. Mastering something outside the Force. Revan became adept at strategy and warfare. And there was some 7, 8, 9 levels on Taris with no reliance on the Force at all? Something like that cannot be simply programmed into someone's mind. The Exile is still unique by knowingly and willingly turning away from the Force, but I find it odd that with all of the glorifying of Revan there is no mention  of what he accomplished outside the Force. Then there was that underwater adventure on Manaan. No Force, no skills, just reaction time and thinking without reliance on anyone or anything else. We don't get something like that in K2. People who think K1 is too much a trope or doesn't challenge concepts like K2 forget how Manaan turns everything upside down. Yeah, Revan was retconned beginning with K2 and changed into someone having visions and relying entirely on the Force by SWOTOR lore.

1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

Cause either in K1 or K2 Canderous says that before the war the Mandalorians had never seen Jedi in battle

Canderous isn't always completely clear in K1, but it's kind of a given that he was referring to the Exar Kun war where the Mandalorians were first brought into contact with the Jedi. So by the time of Mandalore Ultimate, they had experienced battle with Jedi and expected Kavar. Canderous did say that he had been fighting for 40 years or so, so he must of been a fresh kid on the battle field in the Exar Kun War.

1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

HK himself says when he regains his full memory that Malak was the first organic he ever called meatbag.  He says it made Malak furious and that Revan made it apart of his programming

That was pretty funny. HK said it was extreme lengths of frustration. I get the impression that Malak was more a of level headed sort, but serious, so something like that would have aggravated him.

1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

I agree Malak was smart in the vision Revan and Bastila have when they first land on Dantooine.  It seemed like Malak was the cautious one of the two, and warned Revan if they entered the ruins they can never go back to the Council. 

I think the character of Malak in this scene tends to be ignored because it wasn't presented in rich dialogue directly at the player. So Malak and K1 gets dismissed as bland and tropish. I don't know how many times I've seen Malak described as bland, 1 dimensional villain, and Sion is so much better. Not that Sion is bad, he's been presented in dialogue which tends to be noticed by most players it seems.

This scene gave a lot of depth to Malak and it is one of my favorite in the game because of that, because we get to see what Malak was like before and what character he had. Definitely serious, thoughtful, didn't do anything rashly. Revan was probably more forward, more of a hothead... Revan was described as headstrong and willful by one of the Jedi on the Council. I think Zhar.

It's interesting how much can be conveyed in those cut-scenes. How attached to Dantooine Kreia must really be but never lets on. And the presentation of Malak that gets so overlooked.

Maybe the Exile could have been writing anonymously for a gossip rag like National Enquirer of what Revan and Malak were really like behind the scenes and what they wer like as obnoxious padawans.

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I do too. The difference is subtle yet profound. They give Revan all this credit and glorify him, yet they don't realize that Revan had accomplished some degree of what the Exile is known for. Mastering something outside the Force. Revan became adept at strategy and warfare. And there was some 7, 8, 9 levels on Taris with no reliance on the Force at all? Something like that cannot be simply programmed into someone's mind. The Exile is still unique by knowingly and willingly turning away from the Force, but I find it odd that with all of the glorifying of Revan there is no mention  of what he accomplished outside the Force. Then there was that underwater adventure on Manaan. No Force, no skills, just reaction time and thinking without reliance on anyone or anything else. We don't get something like that in K2. People who think K1 is too much a trope or doesn't challenge concepts like K2 forget how Manaan turns everything upside down. Yeah, Revan was retconned beginning with K2 and changed into someone having visions and relying entirely on the Force by SWOTOR lore.

Yes, I forgot for the first eight hours or so which in game time must've been a few days.  Revan did not rely on the Force to rescue Bastila and get off Taris.  I do remember the underwater portion of Manaan and the Firacis shark.

Quote

Canderous isn't always completely clear in K1, but it's kind of a given that he was referring to the Exar Kun war where the Mandalorians were first brought into contact with the Jedi. So by the time of Mandalore Ultimate, they had experienced battle with Jedi and expected Kavar. Canderous did say that he had been fighting for 40 years or so, so he must of been a fresh kid on the battle field in the Exar Kun War.

Oh he was definitely in the war of Exar Kun.  He was either in his early 20's or even in his late teens like most warrior cultures.  There are other characters that definitely fought in that war like Jolee, Kreia, Vrook, Dorak, and it is said Darth SIon is from that time.

Quote

 

I think the character of Malak in this scene tends to be ignored because it wasn't presented in rich dialogue directly at the player. So Malak and K1 gets dismissed as bland and tropish. I don't know how many times I've seen Malak described as bland, 1 dimensional villain, and Sion is so much better. Not that Sion is bad, he's been presented in dialogue which tends to be noticed by most players it seems.

This scene gave a lot of depth to Malak and it is one of my favorite in the game because of that, because we get to see what Malak was like before and what character he had. Definitely serious, thoughtful, didn't do anything rashly. Revan was probably more forward, more of a hothead... Revan was described as headstrong and willful by one of the Jedi on the Council. I think Zhar.

It's interesting how much can be conveyed in those cut-scenes. How attached to Dantooine Kreia must really be but never lets on. And the presentation of Malak that gets so overlooked.

Maybe the Exile could have been writing anonymously for a gossip rag like National Enquirer of what Revan and Malak were really like behind the scenes and what they wer like as obnoxious padawans.

 

Well I like Darth Sion too.  He and Darth Malak are similar in a way.  Both prefer to use brute strength, and both have depth.  In the final confronttion with Sion on Malachor he himself says he prefers Darth Malak over Revan.  I agree Revan seemed to be the headstrong one of the two.  It could be because like Exar Kun before him,  he had a thirst for forbidden knowledge according to Dorak.

Yeah I can see the Exile writing tell all book called 'Revan the man behind the mask.'  As for fans who bash K1 and prefer K2.  THey forget if it wasn't for the popularity of K1 there wouldn't be a K2, and I believe since K2 never attained the universal claim that K1 did, that is why LucasArts never produced a third game.

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