Star Wars Episode VII Discussion (MASSIVE SPOILERS)

[Mutilator57 140]

I'm guessing you hated Clone Wars as well, If you hate Rebels then you my friend are a lost cause ( no offense )

You've got me all figured out

[Malkior 472]

While I agree with your point, we may be getting off-track a bit.. The EU has a vast array of information and many examples of good and bad writing. However, it is so incredibly dense that perhaps we should open a civil discussion thread of why the EU deserved to be retained and whether recreating the entire Star Wars storyline was a good or bad idea.

 

 

 

That said, personally, I am quite interested in people's opinions on the new movie and maybe other future projects in this new canon, and I believe this thread is a great place for discussions such as that.

[Haveayap 127]

the first three seasons of the clone wars were pretty bad... Rebels will be the better show eventually (I cant wait to see vader chop ashoka in half)

[Doctor Evil 51]

the first three seasons of the clone wars were pretty bad

 

No they weren't.

[Doctor Evil 51]

What s ridiculous statement... No one here is actually saying TFA was a bad movie, but it has several issues such as a copy and paste of EP. 4 plot, a stupid overused super weapon, the movie does not stand on its on (to fully understand everything that has happened, you need to read other material). Im starting to believe that you are just trying to kid yourself into this movie as being the 'perfect' master piece much like the prequal haters who try and claim they are the worst films in history when it is not (No movie can be truly perfect, maybe except TESB)

 

I just saw this post so forgive me when I have to address it. Like I said, if you really need a whole bunch of material to understand what's going on in TFA, you're doing it wrong. There are a few things left to mystery that will be explained, as it should. First of all, I'm of the opinion that the Prequels are vastly overhated, so don't throw me into that category of blind nostalgia fanboys, second you're once again repeating the same thing you've said "TFA uses over-used plot point of super weapon" I refer you to my many counter-arguments I have made throughout this thread. Please read my original post in this thread as well, because I am not saying this movie is perfect, I'm saying it's better than people give it credit for.

 

And star wars wasn't originally intended to be a trilogy, this one is, so expect there to be some questions that will be answered in its sequels. Deal with it. Lord of the Rings did the exact same thing and it was brilliant.

 

This is the last time I'm going to address this whole "superweapon is bad mmkaaay?" mumbo jumbo, I'm moving on from here on out.

[Haveayap 127]

No they weren't.

your right, they were awful... season 4, 5 were better and 6 was great, but i couldnt stand seas 1-3

[1Leonard 134]

 a copy and paste of EP. 4 plot

There were similarities, yes. Perhaps a bit too much for your taste, that's fine. But that's not something which is new to Star Wars. If you subscribe to the Star Wars Ring Theory you'll see that the prequels for example have reused plot details, plot points, and scenes from the OT, sometimes up to a fault. Besides, you can't say VII is a carbon copy of IV, there are still a lot of differences. If you look at the characters for example, they are very different to the universe (humanized stormtroopers, bad guy is an unsure and starstruck youth, finn is a traitor to his own faction and teachings) and fulfill a different role in the movie. Some recycled plot points don't immediately mean it's bad.

 

I mean, KotOR I reuses a lot of plot points and character traits from the original trilogy as well (giant superweapon capable of destroying the universe, tall bad guy with a breathing problem, council with a yoda figure, fastest ship in the galaxy, scoundrel with a wookiee friend, pc makes a journey akin to Luke's, but with a twist etc.) , doesn't mean it's bad.

 

, the movie does not stand on its on (to fully understand everything that has happened, you need to read other material).

why do you keep saying this? The movie did fully stand on its own, I haven't read any other material and I understood it perfectly well. Maybe you didn't understand it, but don't try to present that as fact. Please don't speak for everyone. 

 

 

 much like the prequal haters who try and claim they are the worst films in history when it is not 

Again, you keep saying this, and it's just not true. People claim the prequels are bad not because of their ideas, but because of their execution. They are just badly made movies and I have given several examples of why they are throughout this thread.

[Mutilator57 140]

 

Again, you keep saying this, and it's just not true. People claim the prequels are bad not because of their ideas, but because of their execution. They are just badly made movies and I have given several examples of why they are throughout this thread.

 

Not true. The main issue I have with the prequels is in actual fact the ideas. When Darth Vader was used in the OT he was part of a larger story. He was NOT space Jesus - that was an absurd idea and Lucas deserves all the flak he gets for it.

[zXCollinsXz 3]

Overall IMO TFA was a great movie production wise and felt more like the originals. However my main issue with it was the fact that they essentially had two leads rather than one strong lead. Having two leads basically split the time available for character development and I believe Ray as the only main would have made for a much stronger character. I wasn't a fan of the reuse of a giant super weapon. Adding to that last point much of the movie did feel like they were being too cautious, with the destruction of the EU they could have been bolder in trying to make up for that rather than giving out an extremely similar story. Don't get me wrong it was a great movie but as a star wars fan there are certain things I don't agree with. Kylo Ren was a weak character, I'm not entirely sure why they made him an angry sith lord rather than a calm cunning one like Sidious or Vader in OT. Now when it comes to the EU I and many other fans thoroughly enjoy the large majority of it, yes of course there are certain aspects that are questionable but again for the most part it was good. I must agree with Mutilator when he says they shouldn't have thrown all of it out though in my opinion it is not officially gone until they actually put a story over it in that time period. Please remember that the EU kept star wars alive for so many people for 25+ years and Lucas and the indepent producers of the EU worked together to ensure the continuity lined up. I understand Disney's motives but they cannot claim to be "for the fans" when they refused to have a proper review of all EU content. I remember how they claimed they did but a short time later simply said it was all out the window so that it could fit their narrative. I understand if they did that for post ROTJ and certain other aspects but so much of the EU was loved by many such as The Old Republic Era that by them releasing more stories with the same context would have resulted in increased sales and popularity. Also I have heard people say it would be too difficult for them to sift through the EU, I say that is rubbish as it is all neatly organised in central locations such as wookipedia that they could have worked with in order to ensure the more important aspects to the fans survived.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

KOTOR1 used the SF from the start though (Republic is falling, Sith have unlimited resources, how did this happen, all is lost if nothing changes, FIX IT).

 

Compare that to "LOL, Superweapon" in TFA.

 

Also KOTOR was fine since it was, well, the first... having it done *again* so soon is just... not quite as interesting anymore. But then again from KOTOR1 came KOTOR2, and the movie is not bad by itself (just, the superweapon bit). So the word isn't "angry" but as stated "dissapointed".

 

We didn't wait 10 years for the same story again, I want something new, fresh. TFA did not supply, sadly enough.

 

@ 1Leonard: Okay, without reading anything, tell us why the Republic and Resistance are seperate. How did the First Order rise to power. How did a Sith Lord exist besides Sideous and Vader. What exactly transpired that lead to the victory of VI going back to the galaxy situation of IV?

 

And yes, Midichlorian are still stupid as idea. And to finish it off, sadly, TOR is still cannon even when KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 are not. So very sad.

[zXCollinsXz 3]

KOTOR1 used the SF from the start though (Republic is falling, Sith have unlimited resources, how did this happen, all is lost if nothing changes, FIX IT).

 

And yes, Midichlorian are still stupid as idea. And to finish it off, sadly, TOR is still cannon even when KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 are not. So very sad.

 

Unfortunately according to certain twitter posts TOR is not canon and is considered a separate universe by Disney which I suppose is now in line with the current EU groups demands for a separate universe. Though as I said I still take the view until it is officially recorded over it is still canon.

[Mutilator57 140]

Compare that to "LOL, Superweapon" in TFA.

 

 This! So true!

[1Leonard 134]

KOTOR1 used the SF from the start though (Republic is falling, Sith have unlimited resources, how did this happen, all is lost if nothing changes, FIX IT).

 

Compare that to "LOL, Superweapon" in TFA.

 

Also KOTOR was fine since it was, well, the first... 

KotOR wasn't the first to reuse the "Superweapon" idea in the EU and it certainly won't be the last. I don't see why KotOR or ROTJ get a pass for this.

 

@ 1Leonard: Okay, without reading anything, tell us why the Republic and Resistance are seperate. How did the First Order rise to power. How did a Sith Lord exist besides Sideous and Vader. What exactly transpired that lead to the victory of VI going back to the galaxy situation of IV?

This kind of scrutiny can be applied to all of the Star Wars movies. 

What exactly is the trade federation and how does this work in the context of the galactic republic?

Is it known that the droid army is their's and if so, why aren't they just expelled?

How does Padme's royalty work exactly? She can give up being a queen to become a senator?

Why did Obi-Wan Kenobi hide by only changing his first name?

Why did the building of the first Death Star take 18 years when the second could be pumped out in just a couple?

How is the Force referred to as an ancient religion when there were lots of jedi running around up to 20 years before IV?

 

However, ask yourself if knowing the answers to these questions would have an influence on the plot. I don't see how they would. Sure it's nice to know that trivia, but it can also bog the movie down a lot. The prequels had a habit of telling you what happens instead of showing you or letting you experience it for yourself. 

Besides, this is the first movie of a trilogy, it's not a self-contained movie like the original Star Wars was. naturally it raises questions that'll only be answered in the coming movies.

 

 

And yes, Midichlorian are still stupid as idea. And to finish it off, sadly, TOR is still cannon even when KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 are not. So very sad.

Is this relevant to anything I said? No Idea, honestly.

 

TOR is not canon, it's in a status of canon limbo which is a fancy way of EA to state that they don't want to say that it's non-canon because they're afraid of losing subscribers. As soon as it's discontinued they'll probably state that it's non-canon.

[Doctor Evil 51]

It's like ROTJ and Kotor are automatically immune to scrutiny because we loved them so much, but TFA is now subject to it because it "re-uses" a plot point that star wars has been re-hashing for years...

 

How is TOR canon at all? Disney said anything outside of the movies and the clone wars TV show back in '13 (or was it '14?) was non-canon and they are establishing a new reality. This includes, thankfully, TOR.

 

Also KOTOR was fine since it was, well, the first... having it done *again* so soon is just... not quite as interesting anymore. But then again from KOTOR1 came KOTOR2, and the movie is not bad by itself (just, the superweapon bit). So the word isn't "angry" but as stated "dissapointed".

 

This makes absolutely no sense at all. You're giving Kotor a pass because it was the first in a trilogy, but so is TFA and yet you're harping over it as if it pissed all over your cereal. Moviewise, this isthe first star wars movie to use a superweapon plot point since Return of the Jedi, that's over 30 years.

 

 

KOTOR1 used the SF from the start though (Republic is falling, Sith have unlimited resources, how did this happen, all is lost if nothing changes, FIX IT).

 

Compare that to "LOL, Superweapon" in TFA.

 

It actually is a similar predicament in TFA if you look at it objectively rather than just judging it because it "has a superweapon"

 

From what I'm seeing, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but the moment you saw a superweapon, the majority of you who are complaining about it gut reacted.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Doctor Evil

[Cloned Revan 1]

Hey guys can explain to me, who are the parents of Rey?

 

[milestails 264]

I'd like to know as well.

 

My guess is she's a distant descendant of Bastila. 

[Haveayap 127]

IDT her parents are relevant... Im going to suggest she was taken as a youngling like most jedi are to be trained by Luke (Im 99% certain that she was Lukes other apprentice)

[Doctor Evil 51]

Hey guys can explain to me, who are the parents of Rey?

 

This is something the movie deliberately left unknown so that it may be answered in the next 2 movies, I suspect she's the other child of Han and Leia, but there's also evidence she could be Luke's

[LiliArch 115]

It's like ROTJ and Kotor are automatically immune to scrutiny because we loved them so much, but TFA is now subject to it because it "re-uses" a plot point that star wars has been re-hashing for years...

Well I wouldn't give them a free card, but keep in mind that people tend to be more forgiving to something they've grown used to when they were younger. And it is possible to enjoy the exactly same thing to a certain degree, but at some point, enough is enough. The way I see it, it's a lot like eating. You can eat 1-2 plates of smashed potatoes with no trouble, but trying to eat, say, 10-20 plates in a row...

 

From what I'm seeing, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but the moment you saw a superweapon, the majority of you who are complaining about it gut reacted.

It is perfectly possible to not like a certain aspect of the movie, and still like the rest. Saying "this movie has certain issues" does not necessarily mean "this is a bad movie".

 

My guess is she's a distant descendant of Bastila.

Now that you say it... she does look like Bastila.

[Doctor Evil 51]

Well I wouldn't give them a free card, but keep in mind that people tend to be more forgiving to something they've grown used to when they were younger. And it is possible to enjoy the exactly same thing to a certain degree, but at some point, enough is enough. The way I see it, it's a lot like eating. You can eat 1-2 plates of smashed potatoes with no trouble, but trying to eat, say, 10-20 plates in a row...

 

Except take into account that the last time this dish of potatoes was made in the movies was 30 years and 3 movies ago in the saga,  if we're going to include games then say 10 years ago. I don't count most of the EU comics because I never read those and thus they never really had much hold over me.

 

It is perfectly possible to not like a certain aspect of the movie, and still like the rest. Saying "this movie has certain issues" does not necessarily mean "this is a bad movie".

 

Oh believe me, there are people who say that having a superweapon ruins the movie entirely.

 

Regardless, if we're counting all the times the superweapon has been used then it's strike 20 then, so it's just funny because people are complaining now

Edited December 21, 2015 by Doctor Evil

[LiliArch 115]

Except take into account that the last time this dish of potatoes was made in the movies was 30 years and 3 movies ago in the saga,  if we're going to include games then say 10 years ago. I don't count most of the EU comics because I never read those and thus they never really had much hold over me

But it does not mean that the people who really like EU couldn't have gone through it more than once in last 30 years, now does it?

[Doctor Evil 51]

But it does not mean that the people who really like EU couldn't have gone through it more than once in last 30 years, now does it?

 

Added that to my previous post,

 

Also a lot of the frustration I see is people upset because the EU got deemed non canon, which IMO and in lots of people's opinion is not a bad thing

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

Added that to my previous post,

 

Also a lot of the frustration I see is people upset because the EU got deemed non canon, which IMO and in lots of people's opinion is not a bad thing

Only a bad thing for certain franchises I think.

 

Mainly the Jedi Knight Series, though to be honest the better idea would be to modify that story with Kyle Katarn to something that fits their timeline more closely.

 

And Knights of the Old Republic or also roughly that general era. The Sith species, Korriban, Ulic Qel Droma, that whole lot.

[Doctor Evil 51]

Only a bad thing for certain franchises I think.

 

Mainly the Jedi Knight Series, though to be honest the better idea would be to modify that story with Kyle Katarn to something that fits their timeline more closely.

 

And Knights of the Old Republic or also roughly that general era. The Sith species, Korriban, Ulic Qel Droma, that whole lot.

 

But that doesn't mean Disney won't re-use or re-incarnate those ideas or stores in either a similar or new form.

[Haveayap 127]

Added that to my previous post,

 

Also a lot of the frustration I see is people upset because the EU got deemed non canon, which IMO and in lots of people's opinion is not a bad thing

no... we are all fustrated because they rehashed ANH story line