Modding: Are We Done For?

[Fair Strides 509]

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/if-the-tpp-passes-it-could-be-extremely-detrimental-to-the-modern-state-of

 

This was sent to me by ZM90 earlier on Skype, and while I'm fairly confident we are mostly safe, the talk about proprietary formats being a part of DRM (thus, reverse-engineering files to learn those formats would be DRM-Circumvention) has me pretty worried...

 

What are your thoughts on this topic, after watching the video and reading the article in the link?

[Haveayap 127]

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/if-the-tpp-passes-it-could-be-extremely-detrimental-to-the-modern-state-of

 

This was sent to me by ZM90 earlier on Skype, and while I'm fairly confident we are mostly safe, the talk about proprietary formats being a part of DRM (thus, reverse-engineering files to learn those formats would be DRM-Circumvention) has me pretty worried...

 

What are your thoughts on this topic, after watching the video and reading the article in the link?

The TPPA is bad news, My country is one of the main countries in it and have had many protests about it... The internet will be alot worse of once this act has been passed, they havent even discussed this in the US (as they want it to pass two) but under this new act, we are all in alot of trouble

 

"The protection and enforcement of intellectual property rights should contribute to the promotion of technological innovation and to the transfer and dissemination of technology, to the mutual advantage of producers and users of technological knowledge and in a manner conducive to social and economic welfare, and to a balance of rights and obligations." - So we can be fined for modding

 

 

"Each Party may adopt or maintain, consistently with the other provisions of this Chapter, appropriate measures to prevent or control practices or conditions that may in particular cases constitute an abuse of intellectual property rights having an adverse effect on competition in the relevant market." - Hopefully this will give us some free reign (Although the government can enforce a fine without the owners being concerned)

 

"2. Nothing in this Chapter shall derogate from existing rights and obligations that Parties have to each other under the TRIPS Agreement or other multilateral agreements, such as those concluded or administered under the auspices of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)." - Although it will infringe our rights, hopefully this line right here should give us some freedom

 

"With regards to the protection and defence of intellectual property referred to in this chapter, any advantage, favour, privilege or immunity granted by a Party to the nationals of any other country will be accorded immediately and unconditionally to the nationals of the other Parties. The exceptions to this obligation shall be in conformity with the pertinent dispositions referred to in articles 4 and 5 of the TRIPS Agreement" - So in other words, we can be fined even though the copyright owners do not want to do it themselves (Don not ask how I have come about on info in the TPP)

[Kexikus 994]

If I understand this correctly, the main difference is that countries can now fine people, where before only the companies could have done so for breaking EULAs etc.

And the other concern for modders is that DRM circumventing is now illegal. I don't know about the US, but at least in Germany that has been the case before.

 

So, I certainly don't like agreements like those but I doubt it'll influence us. It's always been a grey area and the companies could've sued modders before and I doubt that states have any interest in doing that, so it'll probably change nothing.

[Haveayap 127]

If I understand this correctly, the main difference is that countries can now fine people, where before only the companies could have done so for breaking EULAs etc.

And the other concern for modders is that DRM circumventing is now illegal. I don't know about the US, but at least in Germany that has been the case before.

 

So, I certainly don't like agreements like those but I doubt it'll influence us. It's always been a grey area and the companies could've sued modders before and I doubt that states have any interest in doing that, so it'll probably change nothing.

Hopefully this is the case, but much of TPP has not actually been released (this information was from wikileaks and a few other websites)... But their could be much more than what we know (but hopefully it will not affect modders much)

[Xuul 224]

 

So, I certainly don't like agreements like those but I doubt it'll influence us. It's always been a grey area and the companies could've sued modders before and I doubt that states have any interest in doing that, so it'll probably change nothing.

 

My interpretation as well. For the US I can't see much changing in regards to IP via a trade agreement. 

 

Also If anyone has the article that talks about DRM circumvention from the final draft I'd appreciate the link.

 

Edit: 

 

Hopefully this is the case, but much of TPP has not actually been released (this information was from wikileaks and a few other websites)... But their could be much more than what we know (but hopefully it will not affect modders much)

 

Not True. You can read the whole text online here https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text

[Damned 20]

That really sucks. Hopefully it won't affect you guys.

[Haveayap 127]

My interpretation as well. For the US I can't see much changing in regards to IP via a trade agreement. 

 

Also If anyone has the article that talks about DRM circumvention from the final draft I'd appreciate the link.

 

Edit: 

 

 

 

Not True. You can read the whole text online here https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/tpp-full-text

Ah, OK, I was under the impression that they had not released it yet (from two weeks ago) but that has obviously changed.

[Quanon 263]

I think it all depends on how things are done in the said modding community.

Like Kexikus said it's a bit of a grey zone.

 

From all the mods released for most games, it's obvious there is NO profit involved.

And most smart communities clearly state you shouldn't use pirated versions of the game and so on.

 

It would be pretty crazy for any country to go and drag every modder before court or write up fines and what not.

Yes, it's troubling they are writing up such laws and stuff, but I would guess if they ever really pursue this, it would create a huge backlash.

 

Copying cds, dvds and, hell; old VHS tapes  has been illegal for ages, but I've known very little cases that someone was send to prison or got punished for it.

I'm talking uber small scale, private use, share among friends stuff.

[ZM90 100]

The TPP is very bad news regardless and it would severely curb internet freedom.  Is there a guarantee it would destroy modding communities?  No.  Is it possible it would destroy modding communities? Yes.  Specifically if you look at the wording on a lot of the TPP anything for consumers and ordinary people in the TPP is only recommended to be followed but anything that benefits corporations and big business must be followed meaning that anything that protects consumers is non-binding while anything protecting corporate interests is binding. 

[LiliArch 115]

It would be pretty stupid for companies or anyone to clearly criminalize modding, as it's clearly the mods available that keep people's interest in many of the games... thus making the companies sell the games more, thus giving them more profit. But it also wouldn't surprise me if the people that make these decisions would do just that.

 

I do understand that reverse engineering programs to make competitive products for the said programs will harm the companies and thus needs to be denied, but modding shouldn't do that, if done right...

[Haveayap 127]

It would be pretty stupid for companies or anyone to clearly criminalize modding, as it's clearly the mods available that keep people's interest in many of the games... thus making the companies sell the games more, thus giving them more profit. But it also wouldn't surprise me if the people that make these decisions would do just that.

 

I do understand that reverse engineering programs to make competitive products for the said programs will harm the companies and thus needs to be denied, but modding shouldn't do that, if done right...

that's it, The government does not need the companies permission to say that the 'intellectual property' is infringing rights, even if Bioware agree with us modding the game, the government could turn around and say that its illegal 

[LiliArch 115]

Governments usually need companies to pay taxes, though, to balance economy, so it would essentially hit them, too. Not that they would be able to see that, I'm quite sceptical about the abilites of governments in handling financial situations right now...

[Mephiles550 227]

I remember that when I was a really little kid, I thought that so much as downloading a mod was illegal, let alone using or making one. After my common sense developed, I quickly realized how foolish it was too think such a thing.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that my childhood fear may have legitimate reasons to resurface. 

[Xuul 224]

It would be pretty stupid for companies or anyone to clearly criminalize modding, as it's clearly the mods available that keep people's interest in many of the games... thus making the companies sell the games more, thus giving them more profit. But it also wouldn't surprise me if the people that make these decisions would do just that.

I do understand that reverse engineering programs to make competitive products for the said programs will harm the companies and thus needs to be denied, but modding shouldn't do that, if done right...

that's it, The government does not need the companies permission to say that the 'intellectual property' is infringing rights, even if Bioware agree with us modding the game, the government could turn around and say that its illegal 

I remember that when I was a really little kid, I thought that so much as downloading a mod was illegal, let alone using or making one. After my common sense developed, I quickly realized how foolish it was too think such a thing.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that my childhood fear may have legitimate reasons to resurface. 

 

I think Lili is in the right here. My preliminary analysis of Article 4.9 shows that a lot of it already resembles current US copyright law or some version of an agreement already passed in a TRIP agreement. While this has the potential to make modding illegal unless expressly agreed upon by the rights holders, it will likely that we remain in the same quasi-legal area that we already exist in.

 

If you read § 1201(a)(2)(A) (American Law) you will notice a very similar existing provision. The TTP will require all signors to create laws that are similar to the current US copyright system. This means that any company who wants to shut down a modding project (they can do this already via the DMCA) will be able to do so using legal channels.

 

The government, in general, would also not likely shut down any particular modding project unless it also contained tools that allowed for circumvention of DRM or was for financial gain based on another persons IP. 

 

While I am a bit concerned for some of the restrictions on internet freedom, I don't think this will be the end all be all. Developers will continue to "Officially" not notice us and pretend we do not exist, endorse modding officially, or shut anything down.

 

Unless EA decides to not play nice. But they can already do that at any time.

[VornTiger 0]

I really hope the go'vment(s) don't crack down on modding. But knowing what it says in Revelation, no doubt this and other aspects of our lives will be broken into and regulated. It's a pity- especially when modders can actually benefit the developers. Unofficial Skyrim Patch, anyone?

 

Wonder if this agreement will affect both brand-new and classic games. I recently had a word with Christopher Hart (a well-known artist and author of how-to-draw books) about copying his work. His reply was, 

 

 

 

Thanks for your question. Those books are out of print, which is why I don't show them on my website. The copyright is so that people don't copy and publish the images. You are, of course, correct that they are for use as practice. 

 

You can't publish anything based on his work, even though some of said work is out of print. If it's out of print, it couldn't possible make Chris or his publisher money... could it?

[LiliArch 115]

But it would be possible that they could start selling those in future again, is it not?