Snigaroo

Hello all! Some of you may know that on the subreddit we have a tradition of doing a May the 4th survey, to poll our users on subjects including their opinions on the KOTOR games; mod preferences; and subreddit feedback, just to name a few. In the past I've shared these surveys on an individual basis with a few DS users I knew went to the sub often, but held off sharing them more broadly since they were meant to be for frequent users of the subreddit only. That ends this May 4th! Myself and the other subreddit staff pulled overtime and heavily restructured the survey, setting it up to dynamically redirect respondents past any section which doesn't apply to them so that we're now able to collect data from both subreddit regulars and the broader KOTOR community, then later split that data back apart if we so wish. That means the subreddit surveys are now accessible to everyone, and nobody will see sections that don't apply to them. I'm happy to now be able to share them here on Deadlystream! You can fill the survey out here. It will be open until at least June 4th, and probably at least a few days after. When we close the survey we expect to need about 2-4 weeks to sift through the data and get it presentable, and will then share the results on the subreddit, in the /r/kotor Discord, and in this thread as well. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have, and thank you if you decide to participate!

This would be classified as abandonware if there was no other site on which the original mod author had an account which they could be contacted through. If the email has already been attempted, we would just need to know that due diligence has been done to confirm there's no other site where the mod author might still be active, and if not it could be uploaded--with all credit to the original author for the mod's base contents--as abandonware. EDIT: SH provided me the name of the mod author and a link to the original download, and I am comfortable confirming its status as abandonware--we found no site where the user had been active any more recently than 2008. The base mod can be uploaded, with all credit given specifically to Darth Leomar/Darth Betrayal. Your patch to the mod will need to be uploaded as an entirely separate mod, so both the original mod and your patch will be required to download.

BoS:SR has a LOT of data in it, as does the Lehon expansion, though less so in the latter case. Your install order is the best you could do for compatibility, but you're simply trying to throw a whole lot in there, more probably than can rationally be expected to work together. BoS:SR and the K1CP already are, I believe, fundamentally incompatible. Tack onto that other mods like the Lehon expansion and a bunch of Force mods and you're playing with fire. I'm not surprised you're running into issues.

SH's plan and "order of operations," if you want, seems logical to me. @jc2 has informed me that Chainz previously gave him permissions to modify those mods that need it to be TSLPatcher-based installs, and so if anybody wants to do that as part of the uploading process from our perspective that's fine (although you wouldn't need to do so; they can always be uploaded first and then, if there's demand, modified to be TSLPatchers later). Just upload the mods here on your accounts and I'll shift them over to a sockpuppet archive account as they come. As he's said, jc2 has kindly volunteered to take on all of Redhawke's mods. If anyone else could volunteer to take some of the extra load off of SH he and I would both appreciate it. I'd honestly do this myself if I didn't have a new job and a lot less free time at present, so I do apologize about fobbing this off on other people to handle, but at present I just don't have a choice of it.

For the sake of weighing in from an admin's perspective, our existing upload regulations account for this. Since Chainz was the archivist and he's given permission for the content to be rehosted, nothing special needs to be done; anybody can upload them, with the standard caveats that they need to provide credit to the original authors and that uploading the files does not equate to the right to modify the files (that needs to have been provided for in the readme, or blanket permissions to that effect need to have been given by the author at a prior point). @ChAiNz.2da, it might be wise with that in mind for you to state here that you give such blanket permission, if for no other reason than that it would facilitate users modifying your mods into more compatible TSLPatcher formats. As for the archiving process, I am extremely busy at present so I can't handle the reuploading or I would do so myself; one of the other staff is free to take over the job if they want to do so in a systemic way, however. @Sith Holocron might be a good pick for that, if he has the time.

I edited them a bit, but Feats and attributes were my primary focus. Kreia got the most changes to what she had available (more overall FP and a few additional powers for CC on the player mostly) and Nihilus got a bit beefier there as well, although I gave him fewer new powers as I determined my focus there should mostly be on making him resistant to the player's powers rather than giving him a tendency to sling around a bunch of powers himself, since the Exile is resistant to his abilities. Sion got the smallest amount as I recall, mostly just a little bump on FP and some stat-reducing abilities (I believe I might've given him Plague).

View File Thematic Sith Lords Thematic Sith Lords Premise Anyone who’s played TSL knows that the eponymous Sith Lords are pretty disappointing. The most hyped fight of the entire game, against Nihilus, is almost always trivial. Sion can be dangerous but rarely is, and Kreia’s floating lightsabers are almost always more of a threat than the woman herself. Thematic Sith Lords’s purpose is not to directly address these issues, but to push back against some of the underlying problems with these fights that results in them being so boring. While examining the .utc files for Sion, Kreia and Nihilus associated with their respective fights, I found that there was surprisingly little differentiation between them, especially in attributes, and very little specialization per Lord. Worse still, many feats and powers which the Lords should realistically have had were also missing: Sion, for example, lacked Ignore Pain despite his ability to fight through and even utilize his constant pain being the core of his character! Thematic Sith Lords, as you may have gathered, is not a difficulty mod as such. Rather, it’s a realism mod the goal of which is to increase the overall difficulty of the Lord fights as a natural result of restructuring the stats, feats and powers of the Lords to more accurately fit their physical and mental conditions, as well as their experiences and training, without making every fight harder for all characters. The goal is to make each fight with a Lord feel different, with each Lord having their own specialties, strengths and weaknesses, such that some character builds will do better against some Lords and struggle against others. In Thematic Sith Lords, Sion, for example, has extreme STR and CON, but poor CHA and INT, and abysmal DEX and WIS. His archetype is as a bruiser, who trades taking hits for being able to dish out extremely powerful strikes with no fear of his close-range style resulting in his death—because Sion doesn’t need to worry about dying in a fight, and his combat style should reflect that. This overconfidence results in him being somewhat vulnerable to Force abilities, however, and a Consular might run circles around him while a Guardian struggles to bring him down. The goal is that the opposite will also be true—Consulars who had no trouble with Sion might find themselves in a pickle when their abilities bounce off Nihilus, who now has even higher WIS and Will saves than he did before, and the DEX to frequently dodge the lightsabers of most Jedi not built explicitly for melee combat. Why use Thematic Sith Lords? As noted above, Thematic Sith Lords isn’t a difficulty mod, as most rebalances of the Lords are. The goal is to make each Lord’s attributes, stats, feats and powers a realistic reflection of their condition, and how they would actually fight. If you want pure difficulty, other mods might be for you; if you want to experience differentiated fights that are harder on average than what TSLRCM has to offer, however, Thematic Sith Lords is likely for you. Thematic Sith Lords also has two features which other difficulty mods for the Lords often don’t: it also modifies the Sion fight on Korriban and Sion's fight with Atton on Malachor (both of which are frequently left out of other mods), and it uses the TSLPatcher to inject .utc edit data directly into module files for maximum compatibility. Compatibility This mod requires TSLRCM to be installed first, and NOT to be installed via the Steam Workshop, in order to install properly & function. The Workshop is very poor for mod compatibility, so if you have it installed via the Workshop, it’s best you install it via the installer version anyway. This mod should be compatible with anything and everything else that doesn’t edit the Lords’ .utc files. Even mods that do so shouldn’t break this, they might just edit some of the same data. Installation 1. Ensure TSLRCM is downloaded and installed, NOT through the Steam Workshop! 2. Download the file and unzip it to any folder of your choice (except for the game directory) using a program like 7zip or Winrar. 3. Run the TSLPatcher .exe and, when prompted, select your game directory (the one with the .exe file in it). 4. Click “Patch” and you’re done! Permissions & Thanks As with any mod I have made or will make in the future, this mod has completely open permissions: modify it, redistribute it, reupload it, do whatever. So long as you give me credit for the idea and for the balance settings if you choose to retain most of mine, go for it. You don’t even need to ask me. Special thanks to @DarthParametric for his help with putting this together. It was my first time making significant edits with KOTORTool and creating a TSLPatcher install, and this mod quite probably wouldn’t exist without his help. Thanks to @Pavijan357 for identifying the missing changes to Sion in 906MAL.mod, and @DarthTyren for his assistance in helping me clean up my changes.ini and apply the changes properly to 909MAL. Thanks also to @doctoramanda from the KOTOR Discord for her help making the "preview" image. Submitter Snigaroo Submitted 12/16/2019 Category Mods TSLRCM Compatible Yes  

Personal details shouldn't be visible through Ko-Fi or Paypal so long as a Paypal business account is used, which I don't think has any tax implications in itself, and based on what @JCarter426 said Paypal doesn't take a higher cut for that type of account, either. Your tax note is valid, but how would we regulate Steam gift codes? We shouldn't have anyone asking for specific games (that's setting the amount in a way, the same way the regulations currently ban) and I believe straight gift cards across regions are also blocked by Steam in at least a few circumstances (and I believe also have a minimum amount).

I'm not opposed to doing such, as long as that doesn't lead to giving the impression that DS profits from this in some way. Ultimately that's @Tyvokka's decision, though, and will be forthcoming if it's a change we'd like to have.

Hello streamers! Your friendly staff here. We'd like to let you know about the new site rules we've just whipped up. These are a modification of the old site rules to remove some outdated rules, add a few new ones (and some extra categories on old rules), and just generally reformat everything and make it easier to read, especially by organizing them in a better way that flows from the most important rules for users to see to those that are least-important. For most of you, if you follow the cardinal rule of "don't be stupid," this won't mean much to you. It's meant to be more of a clarification, both for us as moderation and for you as users, so the rules are more readable and more up-to-date. There are some major caveats to that, though, which we should point out here. A few massively important changes have been made: FIRST: Bumping. As you can see, bumping is no longer under a blanket ban, but instead has some common-sense regulations about when it should or shouldn't be employed. Since de facto bumping was used from time to time anyway under these circumstances, we thought it made sense to codify those exceptions. SECOND: Spoilers. We're never going to remove something for spoilers, but as the new rule #11 points out: This is just a courtesy regulation for new players. It's not a rule we're enforcing through warnings or bans, but it is absolutely something we'd like everyone to remain mindful of. Many of the mods here are of tremendous help to all varieties of players, including brand-new ones; insofar as it is possible, their experiences should be respected and protected by being mindful of what you're saying, and where you're saying it. THIRD: Tipjars. This is the big one, and there's a lot of regulations on it, as we want to protect both our modders and users. But it's a huge change and a long time coming, so I'd like to talk about it in a bit more detail, and explain our rationale. Our stance has always been, and will always be, that the sale of modifications (that is, taking money for making, releasing, supporting or troubleshooting a mod, as well as accepting money with any expectation of reciprocity, for either party) is strictly prohibited. It's not just because that's not the kind of community we want to be, it's also because we determine that this is strongly against the EULA for the games, and would ultimately be tremendously detrimental to the community in all respects: to modders, to users, and to the sites that support both. We will never permit this, ever. With that said, many communities have recently become more tolerant of allowing modders to be voluntarily thanked for their content, and we think this is a positive trend. Most of those who mod the games don't do it with any expectation of reciprocation (and nor should they), but if they make something which truly improves a user's experience to the extent that the user wants to thank them for their contributions in a tangible way, we see no reason why they should be prevented from doing so. Most modders spend hours of their days doing their work, after all, and so long as the system is voluntary on both sides we don't see a reason why those modders who choose to shouldn't be able to state that they accept tips, and users who are interested shouldn't be able to provide them. The full regulations for the tipjar system are in the second post of the rules thread, and we expect (and welcome!) a lot of feedback here. It's obviously a very new thing for DS, and while we think we've covered all the necessary bases there can always be more said, and if needed adaptations and additions to the current regulations. But I want to emphasize here finally that we aren't making this site-integrated. DS isn't taking money off the top, or handling these tips through its own integrated system, or making it mandatory. MODDERS choose if they want to use it, and where they want to advertise it (within the extremely strict bounds of the regulations; we don't want these links to be spammed). This is meant to be a system that modders have the greatest control over, so if you dislike it or think your mods shouldn't be the subject of any donation talk, you can make the decision to not participate without ever having the system shoved in your face. It's opt-in on both sides, by design. Needless to say, we expect a lot of feedback here, and will be listening closely. But we hope that, on the whole, everyone thinks that these new rules are an improvement over the previous iteration. Thanks!

Guidelines for Reuploading Abandonware Mods For the purposes of the KOTOR modding community, ABANDONWARE will be defined specifically as mods which are no longer publicly available, whose authors have been entirely inactive on all known accounts or other methods of contact for over two years, and whose content was uploaded and readme written under the presupposition that their content would always be available for download on the official venue(s) of their choosing. For the purposes of this community, at the time of writing this definition also entirely disregards all mods which have ever been uploaded to DeadlyStream by the author or an agent of the author. When reuploading abandonware content, certain mandatory guidelines must be followed. If all the above is true and the readme for the mod in question (if present) contains no indication that reuploading the mod is against the wishes of the author, the following steps must be taken (and can only be taken by a DS admin): 1. Contact the modder on any platforms where extant accounts of theirs may still be present and informing them of the imminent content reupload, with instructions for requesting the content be removed if their stance on reuploading has changed from the stance taken at the point of writing their readme. 2. Create a DeadlyStream account with the name of said original modder. 3. Upload the modder’s mod under the new account, with all the original files and readme present, unaltered, and packaged in the original format. 4. Add a note to the bottom of the readme as displayed on deadlystream clarifying that the mod is an abandonware reupload of a mod created under the author’s name, and unequivocally stating that the mod will not be actively supported, nor is any user authorized to engage with the mod in any way which is impermissible by the mod’s readme. In the eventuality that a mod matches the definition of abandonware but does include wording which indicates the author would not approve of their mod being reuploaded, the potential reuploader must first ascertain whether or not the mod was uploaded to a site which would cause the user to believe the mod would be available for download on this preferred method in perpetuity. If there is reason to believe that the mod author wrote their readme with the knowledge that their content might not be available after a certain date (ex: utilizing an upload service on some sort of timer or temporary basis which would see the mod lost after a certain date), then the only way to see the mod reuploaded is to gain contact with and permission from the author; if there is reason to believe the author was active and aware that their mod had become undownloadable at the point at which its last official download went down and did nothing to correct it or actively refused requests to have their mod reuploaded and has only become inactive since this date, then the only way to see the mod reuploaded is to gain contact with and permission from the author. Only in circumstances where the mod author is thought to have become absent or inactive within the community before their mod first became unavailable; that the mod author made no statement or other indication that they would specifically deny the right to reupload their mods even in the eventuality that they specifically became unavailable on all official venues; and that the mod author had every reason to believe that their mod would always be available to download on the official venue of their choosing (or that they would be present to reupload it themselves) at the point of their disappearance is it acceptable to violate the readme in this one, specific instance. The steps for reuploading mods of this variety are as follows: 1. All due diligence must be made to contact the modder on all known or potential avenues of communication to inform them about the status of their mod and request instructions, including requesting permission for a reupload. If a reupload is permitted, steps can proceed from step 2 above; if refusal, the matter of reuploading the mod is to be dropped in perpetuity. If, however, there is no communication for a period of over 1 month, an admin may move to step 2. 2. Send a second message to all known modder accounts made contact with in step 1 informing the original author of intent to reupload, and steps to confirm the move or request the mods removed. 3. Create a DeadlyStream account with the name of said original modder. 4. Upload the modder’s mod under the new account, with all the original files and readme present, unaltered, and packaged in the original format. 5. Add a note to the bottom of the readme as displayed on deadlystream clarifying that the mod is an abandonware reupload of a mod created under the author’s name, and unequivocally stating that the mod will not be actively supported, nor is any user authorized to engage with the mod in any way which is impermissible by the mod’s readme.

Deadlystream Forum Rules Useful Links: Deadly Stream Home Page KOTOR Subreddit KOTOR Discord General Forum Rules The Deadlystream forum is a civil community, and the rules have been put in place to maintain this. Please be friendly when posting here. 1. General Posting Habits Threads and posts must be placed in their appropriate forums: check out the forum description before posting your message. Before posting a new topic, do a search to see if there is already a recent thread on the subject. If there is already a thread similar to what you’d like to post, feel free to read it and post a reply in the existing thread. If you can find no suitable thread that has received new posts recently you may post your own. Do not revive threads that have not had any activity for months or years this way unless you have something of substance to add to the topic. Be specific when you name your topic. This will aid in topic searches and help prevent someone from posting something you already have. Please refrain from starting topics on your life experiences. Deadlystream has blogs for each user, and that would be a wonderful place to post such topics instead. Try to stay on-topic. Discussion is a good thing and is encouraged, but if what you have to say deviates a lot from the topic, do not post it in that thread. Consider starting your own thread instead. This is a matter of respect to the thread starter. If you open a topic requesting help with a game or a specific modification, you must list all modifications that you currently have installed. Inaction or inability to list your installed modifications will result in our inability to provide assistance; we can't help if you can't provide this information. 2. Flaming You cannot, in any way, insult (or "flame") someone else on the board. People may not be insulted just because their opinion differs from yours. Flaming includes calling people names, insulting them, or saying offensive things to them. This also includes harassment (the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands). Any flaming will result in one warning, after which your posting ability will become restricted and if necessary you will be banned. 3. Spamming Spamming is strictly prohibited. Your post needs to contribute to the discussion or the topic. Spam Details: Do not post messages that are irrelevant to the topic or attempt to derail the conversation. Your posts should contribute to the thread in some manner. Avoid simplistic replies that include negligible discussion; "I agree" or "This!" as replies aren't necessary, and you can easily use emote reactions on a post in their place. You may not post threads about the amount of posts, post status, or rank that you or a fellow member has. Refrain from making successive posts (edit your previous post instead). Refrain from making many threads in rapid succession; if possible, try to consolidate anything you'd like to speak about to fewer threads that cover broader topics. Do not start topics solely designed for posting spam. Find some other forum to work out your inanity. Do not spam the Private Message (PM) mailboxes of other users. 4. Inappropriate Language Refrain from using excessive profanity in your posts. Basically, let the censor do its job. Don't attempt to undermine it. Avoid using leet/IM/chatspeak in your posts. This is a forum, not an instant messenger or a cell phone so please make an effort to use proper English to make your posts easier to read and understand. [Example of chatspeak: "h0w r u m8" --> "How are you mate?"] We are aware that this is an international forum where not everyone speaks English as their native language. Everyone can make grammar and spelling mistakes and that's okay; as long as a post is broadly intelligible, no other users should attempt to correct one's English, nitpick grammar, and so on. 5. Bumping Please do not make posts simply to move the topic back up to the top of the forum. This is called ‘bumping,' and outside of very specific circumstances it isn't allowed. The circumstances where it is allowed include: You have made a thread requesting help but have received no helpful replies as yet, and your thread is now both more than halfway down the forum's first page AND you posted your thread over two weeks ago. An existing thread dealing with an issue you're currently experiencing includes some relevant information, but your issue persists. You may continue discussing from it. A mod submission thread hasn't been bumped in some time, but you need to report an incompatibility, error or other meaningful matter to the modder. You have meaningful contributions to add to any unlocked staff/administrative post. You have meaningful contributions to add to a work-in-progress, tech demo, tool or tutorial thread (and the project in question hasn't been declared defunct). 6. Usernames and Personalization Do not duplicate anybody's nickname, avatar, and/or signature. You may not wrongfully take the name of someone outside the community, such as names or nicknames of game developers, moderators of other communities, and so on. Impersonation is strictly prohibited. 7. Multiple Accounts Multiple accounts are not allowed. You must also use a valid email address when registering. If you do not like your current account name, please create a thread in the Helpdesk Forum and the staff will assist you in changing your name. 8. Illegal Material Do not discuss or post links to illegal material or discuss where to obtain illegal material (i.e. where to get illegal cracks, etc.). Do not post magazine scans and other copyrighted material. This is prohibited. Discussions about how to perform activities that are illegal in the US are also prohibited (i.e. torrents to acquire the games illegally, etc.). Deadlystream may at times host files that circumvent DRM; in these instances, these files are only to enable the normal and legal use of the games they are made for. In all instances you must own the content you are using, and Deadlystream does not condone, promote, or enable piracy. Discussion about piracy is strictly prohibited. 9. Obscene Material You may not post obscene material. This includes text and/or images that are pornographic, or which incite or encourage violence or discriminatory behavior. 10. Advertisement While linking to legal and non-obscene websites is permissible, please do not specifically advertise other websites, nor make posts or threads about other websites or forums solely in an effort to direct traffic to them. You may include links in your signature, but you may not include links for the sole purpose of advertisement within your posts. Commercial advertisement for companies, or products or services you are trying to sell, is strictly prohibited. 11. Spoilers Despite being an old game, many users are new to them, and as Deadlystream hosts many bugfixes and content restorations deemed critical by the community, we can and should respect the importance this site, its download pages, and its forums have to other users. In areas where first-time players are likely to travel, major spoilers should be kept to an appropriate minimum and, where necessary to include, should be mentioned beforehand. This rule won't be too rigidly enforced, but for your fellow posters, please do try to be considerate. 12. Liability You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). We reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you. 13. Appealing a Restriction of Privileges If your posting, replying, uploading or downloading privileges are revoked for whatever reason, you may request a repeal of the restriction immediately after the imposition of the reduction. Please allow up to seven days for the appeal to be processed, and understand that, if an appeal is denied, the terms of your restriction's eventual removal (if any) will be at the sole discretion of the moderation. Any attempt to get around a revocation of privileges will result in an immediate ban. If your privileges are revoked you will be notified when and why via a PM. 14. Re-registration after a ban You may not re-register after receiving a ban. If you re-register after you are temporarily banned, you will be banned permanently. If you keep re-registering, you will be IP-banned, preventing you from viewing the forums at all. 15. E-mail Addresses For your own privacy and security, do not post your e-mail address in the forums. If you want somebody to contact you personally, then please use the Private Messaging system built into the forums, or turn on the option allowing other users to send you e-mail via your profile. 16. Thread Closure or Deletion If you have reason to prevent a thread you've made from receiving further replies, you can ask a moderator to close your thread. Moderators may or may not approve the closure request at their sole discretion. 17. Reporting Posts If you witness someone breaking the rules, don't post about it in the thread. Instead, please use the 'report post' button to inform the moderating staff of the problem. Please use it only to report posts that are in violation of the forum rules. 18. Uploads In almost all circumstances, all content on Deadlystream must be uploaded by the original creator(s)/owner(s) of the content, with limited exceptions. Uploading content that is owned by someone else is strictly prohibited, unless explicit permission can be demonstrated by the uploader. If you are found to upload content that is owned by another person without explicit evidence of permission, the first offense will result in a warning and removal of said content. Any additional infractions will result in a permanent ban. All mods that are uploaded to Deadlystream require at least one screenshot of the mod being used in game to be approved. If the Staff finds that the screenshot that is uploaded does not meet this requirement, we reserve the right to reject the mod until a proper screenshot is provided. Deadlystream Staff will, from time to time, reach out to authors of content not currently hosted on Deadlystream to see if there is an interest in having their content uploaded to Deadlystream. This activity should only be performed by Deadlystream staff members. While users may attempt to get in contact with modders who have yet to upload their content to Deadlystream and politely ask if they would do so, they should respect that modder's stance if they decline, and, most importantly, should not upload their content on their behalf, unless with express (and provable) permission! In cases of abandonware mods (defined as being content which is no longer publicly available and whose authors have been entirely unreachable for a duration of no less than two years), a process exists for these mods to be reuploaded as archived content on Deadlystream; the specific guidelines are included in the second reply to this thread. If you wish to submit mod that qualifies, you may submit a request to the administrators and they will proceed with the steps towards having the mod publicly uploaded. The Deadlystream Staff reserve the right to reject any file or modification for any reason that is within the interest of Deadlystream. By uploading any file or modification to Deadlystream, you are acknowledging that the Deadlystream Administration and Staff reserve the right to edit, reupload, repackage and move any files as administration deem necessary for the maintenance of hosting mod files and ensuring mod functionality. This means that files will be subject to periodic changes or alterations when deemed necessary. File attribution will always stay with creator and/or uploader of said file(s). 19. Sale of Modifications The sale of modifications is strictly prohibited on Deadlystream. All hosted modifications on Deadlystream are to be released for free; any deviation from this will result in an immediate and permanent ban. Any attempt to link to a modification made for sale, or to sell a modification hosted at a third-party website, either through the Deadlystream PM system or Deadlystream forum system, will also result in an immediate and permanent ban. While the sale of mods is strictly prohibited, allowing users to voluntarily tip mod creators (WITHOUT any expectation of reimbursement, implied or actual) is permitted, albeit with significant regulation. If you are an interested modder, please see the first reply to this thread for those regulations. Failure to abide by the regulations as listed may result in the revocation of your right to post your tipjar information on Deadlystream. 20. Users' Responsibilities Maintaining a healthy forum environment is paramount to Deadlystream, and that includes being welcoming to new users. Whatever a user’s reasons for coming to Deadlystream, they should be respected and helped to the utmost ability of the regular users of this forum. This rule does not mean that our regulars should bend over backwards for new users; it does, however, mean that new users should be assisted to the best ability of our friendly regulars, should not be denied help over trivialities or incomplete information (ask for additional info WHILE helping them instead!), and should not be derided, talked down to, or otherwise dismissed for a lack of knowledge or familiarity with these games, modding, or even general tech-savviness. All users of Deadlystream should assume a user is friendly and willing to learn, however unfamiliar they are with what they may need help with, until and unless the user proves otherwise. 21. A Simple Catch-All The most important rule of all: Don't be stupid. Use common sense. This is a wonderful rule that covers all the loopholes. These rules are not a code of laws set in stone. Moderators will use their discretion to determine how they are best applied for the good of the community here.

I didn't know that actually; I'll edit the text. Still, the fact remains that two of the same files will always conflict with one another, which has always been the biggest problem with the Workshop compared to use of TSLPatcher-enabled mods.

@Sith Holocron requested that I go into some general detail for the community about why the Steam Workshop is generally bad for modding, both to have all the issues laid out and easily referenced, and to clarify some common misconceptions. I can't count the number of issues I've had to troubleshoot as a result of the Workshop and I know its systems and limitations in detail, so I feel fairly qualified to explain what makes the system inadequate compared to the standard methods the community uses for mod installation. I'll first briefly explain how mods installed from the Workshop work, then detail situations where using the Workshop is sensible before explaining why using the Workshop is generally not a good idea. If you'd only like to see an explanation of why you should be downloading mods manually, skip on down to section #3. If you don't use the Steam version of the game with the most recent (Aspyr) patch, needless to say this doesn't really matter for you, as you don't have Workshop support for your title anyway. How the Workshop Works First, it's important to reiterate that the Workshop is only available on the Aspyr patch of the game (not the 'legacypc' beta install option) on Steam. This update causes not a few issues, which means that even if you own the game on Steam you might want to revert it to that legacypc version even before considering modding; an inability to apply new textures to lightsaber hilts, the loss of fog effects, and sometimes extreme game stuttering are but a few of the issues the Aspyr patch causes (though, in fairness, it of course also introduces many useful conveniences, including native widescreen support and controller support). To the topic at hand, however: on a basic level, the Workshop is just a download system for mods. It doesn't truly "install" them as such, as the TSLPatcher would do, it just takes stored data from archives and puts them in a repository which the Aspyr-patched version of the game can read. For example, if you install TSLRCM and two texture mods, the Workshop will take the file data from TSLRCM and those texture mods and separately store them in three different containing folders, which the game will then read on startup. A few of you might already see the problems with this, but we'll get into that in a moment. What the Workshop is Good For Jokes of "nothing" aside, the Workshop is actually very good for single-mod installs. If you want to use TSLRCM and only TSLRCM, go for it--the Workshop will download it and you can run it with no trouble at all. It will even keep the mod dynamically updated for you; the TSLRCM team even realized that this is a much easier and more foolproof method of installation for many users. And, so long as TSLRCM (or TSLRCM + M4-78) is the only mod you're using, it truly works fine. The issue comes in with multi-mod setups, which is how we get to.... Why You Should Avoid the Workshop Put simply, the Workshop was not well-designed when it comes to multi-mod installs, especially in the face of the array of tools the community has developed to encourage mod compatibility over the years, the TSLPatcher being foremost among them. For those that don't know, the TSLPatcher can append strings or modify individual lines within existing files (among a myriad of other things), which allows mods which would otherwise directly overwrite the same files to work together fine, so long as they're not editing the exact same data within the same files. Not only does the Workshop not have this, it also lacks a stunning array of other common-sense multi-mod features: Load orders are based on the order mods are subscribed to, and are overwritten in certain circumstances. This is a big one. Even the most archaic games have always allowed users to control file overwrites, deal with compatibility issues, and selectively prioritize one mod over another by controlling the order in which mods are installed, and oftentimes the specific files installed from mod to mod. Because the Workshop does not truly install mods as such and instead merely sits them in a folder to be read by the game, it's up to the Workshop which mods get read in which order, and which get prioritized. Mods subscribed to first are read first by the system, but because they're downloaded as complete packages ready-to-launch, it's not possible to remove files selectively unless you know exactly where to look--even then, the Workshop may try to repair your install of the mod, replacing files that you may have removed intentionally. Furthermore, no file manifest is given by the Workshop, which makes it that much more difficult to see which mods edit the same content, and incompatibility is a major systemic issue with the workshop as we'll see. Worst of all, mod updates or game reinstalls can entirely disrupt this subscription order and randomize the load order, making it difficult to achieve a stable load order even if you're doing all due diligence. One mod's changes can push out another's. Unlike the installation system typical with major mods where the TSLPatcher can minimize incompatibilities, there's no such protection here. Indeed the opposite, as having two mods with the same .2da file means that one's will inevitably win out, and the other's will lose, and the loser's data will be completely and totally ignored by the game. Not only does this guarantee that some mods are incompatible in function simply due to the Workshop's architecture, it means that you could encounter serious bugs if important files from one mod are overwritten by another. This is part of the reason why TSLRCM and M4-78 had to be combined on the Workshop eventually--despite being completely compatible with one another, the Workshop was ramming them together in incompatible ways. Mods installed manually don't play well with Workshop mods. Jumping off of the above, because mods aren't truly installed with the Workshop, a user can mod their game by installing files onto their game directory in steamapps/common as one would normally do, but also subscribe to mods on the Workshop. Yet the same issues as two mods editing the same file on the Workshop will now occur in this scenario: a loose .2da file in the override will conflict with a .2da file from a Workshop mod and one will completely cancel out the other, rather than taking each other into account whatsoever. This is a big reason why it's a good idea to do all one thing or all another, since combinations like this are invariably more work than simply modding with the right tools from the start. The Workshop has limited selection, and few exclusives. This is an indirect rather than direct issue with the Workshop, but it's worth pointing out all the same. Because of many of the above issues, the Workshop has a rather limited base of modifications, and most modifications released on the Workshop have also seen standard releases, either here on Deadlystream or on the KOTOR 2 Nexus. Because those mod versions would be more compatibility-friendly anyway, there's little reason to use the Workshop just for the sake of the mods on it; there's more variety and less headache installing mods elsewhere. Many Workshop mods are out-of-date and not supported by their authors. This is again (at least partly) an indirect issue, but I feel the need to mention it here because it does have consequences for users. It is very easy to upload mod content to the Workshop even if you aren't the original author, and difficult for original authors to get these reuploads taken down. Regardless of your stances on mod ownership or reuploading, the users who perform these uploads often drop them on the Workshop for quick downloads and kudos-padding and then abandon them, not providing any future updates or support that the original authors would at their typical download locations. This leads already-anemic Workshop content to also frequently suffer from being outdated, and lack proper support, as the uploaders are frequently not the original software authors and may not even understand how the content they've hosted works. While the above is by no means an exhaustive list, it does represent the bulk of the problems with the Workshop. I want to reiterate a final time that the Workshop is an easier install method, as it's a simple one-click solution, but, much like the dark side, it's an easy path that often brings its own problems down the line. It's never worth it to use the Workshop for a couple of mods only to find out that you have a serious incompatibility late into the game, and no clue how to resolve it. Manually downloading mods isn't much more difficult, and neither is their installation, while the compatibility benefits from doing so are significant. I hope this post has helped explain exactly why that is, and encouraged you to look into a traditional install instead. If concerns about compatibility now seem significant to you, or if you're new to modding and worried you'll simply be overwhelmed by the install process for mods, I (though biased) strongly recommend the mod builds. As fully-compatible mod lists, you won't need to worry about crashes from their use, and all the mods listed come with detailed instructions where necessary; spoiler-free builds are even available if you're a first-time player. With the builds as an option, there's really no reason not to skip the Workshop in favor of a much more content-rich and stable experience.

I've moved it for the OP.

Steam copy, legacypc beta, Windows 10 OS. TSLRCM and a handful of other mods, none of which should impact the situation given that JC also experienced it.

Hello everyone! Recently, we at /r/kotor hosted a general survey about the games and posting habits on the subreddit. Most of these results aren't very interesting for Deadlystream and modding in general, but we also asked some specific questions about modding and modding habits which we restricted to only users on the subreddit which had previously installed a mod for either KOTOR or KOTOR 2. I think these results are both very interesting and quite relevant to Deadlystream, and so I thought to bring it to everyone's attention. The survey thread, which includes links to all the various sections of collated survey responses, can be found here. But, for those who just want to see what's relevant, we're most interested in the two modding sections--here and here. Now, there are some really interesting results in these two categories, including how frequently users on the subreddit mod each of the individual games, how many users have used the mod builds and the ways in which they choose to do so, and some feedback and usage statistics on K1R, TSLRCM, and M4-78; for anyone here with any fingers in those pies, it's worth taking a look at the results. There are two charts I really want to bring to everyone's attention, however, and I'll repost the first of these here: As you can see, these are the usage values for typical modding sites, with the one on the left representing usage for all users, and the one on the right excluding those who have only ever installed TSLRCM before (which we suspected granted the Steam Workshop disproportionate weight, and was largely borne out). These charts show clearly that Deadlystream sits in third place for all major modding sites, even the Steam Workshop, and even after excluding TSLRCM-only users. This means that the Workshop, which only hosts content for KOTOR 2 (and a very small selection at that), and which is only available to users who own the games via Steam, is beating out Deadlystream for usage on the subreddit. This is despite official subreddit resources like the mod builds utilizing Deadlystream; this is despite official and regular subreddit warnings about the Workshop's reliability; and this is despite our policy to link to mods on Deadlystream and recommend Deadlystream's usage whenever a user comes to us with a modding question. Now, if it was just a battle between the Workshop and Deadlystream that would be more understandable, as convenience can always win out against common-sense, and other responses to the survey showed that KOTOR 2 is by far the more modded game out of the two. But we have here the Nexus as well, which is also beating out DS on usage. It's very clear from these results that, despite the subreddit's partnership with Deadlystream and all our best efforts to encourage its use, DS is losing the race on convenience (the Workshop) and popular usage/word-of-mouth (Nexus). And this is on a site which is partnered with DS and where we do our best to support it; the prognosis for use outside reddit is likely more grim still. I bring this to everyone's attention not to be a doomsayer, but instead to illuminate the issue and open up a dialogue about how we can fix it. As everyone here knows, Deadlystream is now where the most (and the most-updated) mods are hosted; users who utilize the Workshop and Nexus not only deprive themselves of many mods, but also deprive themselves of stability due to the Workshop's poor architecture and the outdated nature of many of the mods on the Nexus. This, then, is not merely a perception problem affecting the userbase here--wherein users quite likely believe the KOTOR mod community anemic or even dead based off of perceptions surrounding the infrequent uploading and support of mods to the Workshop and Nexus--but also a usage problem, in that the end-user is being deprived of a stable game with maximum available content. I've already looped @Tyvokka into this discussion and we had a chat earlier today about wiki integration and how the subreddit (which is tied to reddit's very limited wiki functions at present) might migrate our entire wiki here in the future, which might well serve to encourage more cross-site traffic and familiarity. We also again discussed cross-site administration, events and support, and hopefully on the administrative level we can do some cooperative work to combat this trend. As has been mentioned before, at the very least when wiki support is added here and the mod builds are next updated I'll post them here, and begin dual-site support between reddit and DS. I don't want to understate the work that can be done on the level of the individual user here either, however. For example, let's take a look at the second chart, I spoke of earlier, an entirely more hopeful one: As you can see, about 50% of polled users would be potentially interested in making a KOTOR mod! The subreddit currently has a little over 37,000 subscribers, of which I'd estimate about 15,000 are still for accounts which are active on the site. I know this is a bit of guesswork, but let's just say that 75% of the "Maybe" category will eventually decide they don't want to make a mod or modding tools, and 85% of the remainder doesn't have the skills to do so and will never learn them. If you add them all up, that's still 450 users who would want to make a mod and would have the skills to do so. And I fully admit these are hypothetical approximations of skill, availability and dedication, but it's not a number to scoff at. Regardless of outcome, it's clear that there is potential here; a userbase which contains individuals who are at least willing to try their hand at modding for KOTOR, but have not as yet. I see the subreddit as a pool of potential resources for users on deadlystream, potentially containing not just users willing to do the gruntwork of testing mods, but also artists, users with modeling experience, and maybe even programmers with sufficient skill to make tools still desperately-needed by the modding community. Not everyone will agree with the need (or desirability) to look to the subreddit and its userbase for work which, in some modders' minds, is perhaps not even necessary; that's okay. I understand that considerations for mod development differ, both based on the mod and the user. But I point out this base of interest because, for those who do see potential in it, I want you to know it's there, and as subreddit staff, we're entirely on board with any efforts to harness it. We firmly believe that greater cooperation and collaboration between Deadlystream and the subreddit--which is certainly the largest KOTOR fan community on the internet now--will help drive the word-of-mouth which will help present Deadlystream as the principal KOTOR modding site, and in so doing reverse any false presumptions in the KOTOR fanbase at large that KOTOR modding is dead. Beyond that, with the recent announcement that a KOTOR movie is likely in the works, there's little better time to present a strong and vital face for the classic games than now, when interest in the series is revitalizing. Of course, the subreddit does not necessarily need to factor into this at all, beyond serving as the vehicle for bringing this issue to everyone's attention. I invite anyone reading here to share their thoughts, possible solutions, and even further concerns; we all use Deadlystream, and how frequently it's used for its intended purpose impacts all of us in one way or another. Anything that could help, even if it's impractical to implement at present (or at an administrative level), is worth mentioning. Thanks everyone for your time!

Thanks for the ping @Qui-Gon Glenn. You want the honest to goodness truth, the answer is just a lot of trial-and-error. Before I reached my first stable build release I had to play the games through, shifting order and switching mods out, 4-5 times before I could even complete one. That was back before I was more familiar with what I was doing, but the moral of the story, if you will, is still the same--depending on what you're trying to get to work together, it might just come down to a lot of tinkering. That said, JC is absolutely correct that incompatibilities are pretty rare. The most common type you'll have are obvious straight file overwrites, which are disproportionately texture or model changes. In those cases it's as simple as installing what you want last. More rarely you have file overwrites that involve more important files, which you can sometimes get away with overwriting if you know that the file from one mod is just minor changes (a rebalance of values in spells.2da, let's say) while another makes additions. Obviously in that case you keep the one that makes the additions, if you're dead-set on both mods, and either manually re-implement the balance changes or just eat the loss. Properly major file overwrites, like two loose appearance.2da files, can still be made to work if you've got the know-how and patience to merge the data from both files. Otherwise it's a matter of deciding which mod you prefer. TSLPatcher mods are more stable, but whether you'll encounter stability issues as a result of them is often less obvious, as they tend to do more (just by the nature of what mods benefit from using the TSLPatcher) and warnings the patcher spits out can sometimes be intentional, or benign even when unintentional. You don't always know which is which, and even if you go through everything with no errors thrown at all, you can still get a conflict at the end of the day. There's nothing you can do for that, though, except try to structure your install order logically and be smart about what mods you want to integrate. The more you add, and the more that anything you add edits, the more risk you inherently run. Determining a provisional load order is where you're going to be doing most of your legwork, and it's the step that will most directly impact the stability of your final build. This is probably the one thing I might be able to give some useful advice on. For the builds, the install order favors installing loose-file mods first, then larger TSLPatcher mods descending down to those with the most minor changes. The order of importance thus goes from the most trivial loose-file mods to the most important loose-files, then shifts to the most important TSLPatcher/.exe content down to the most trivial. In addition, mods of similar styles (texture replacers, model edits, mechanics changes, etc.) and those with similar thematic foci (Dantooine, let's say) are also grouped somewhat closely together. I've found that this is helpful in determining where you're likely to have conflicts, because by starting with the smallest mods first you'll have less stuff to go through in your override when/if you have a direct file conflict so you can easily determine what mods you're going to be forced to select between, and by grouping themes you're more likely to run into those potential conflicts back-to-back. From the TSLPatcher side of things, installing the largest mods first lets you know right away whether or not your most important mods are throwing any errors in their install phase, and also allows for mods with more specific changes (which are generally smaller) to overwrite the changes made by your larger, broad-stroke mods. Your final functional order might not be similar to that, but installing a test run in this way is the best way I've found to quickly diagnose problem areas or potential issues in what you intend to install, which will let you fine-tune what you're using and when you're installing it to get better results. Once you've cleaned up the obvious issues, though, there's nothing for it but to do a run and make sure everything works. Sometimes it won't--most times it doesn't, for me. A little over half the time I have to restart or modify a test partway through due to unforeseen issues that didn't crop up during the install phase. If you're bound and determined to use a bunch of mods, that's just how it goes.