Doctor Evil

Now it's JJ ripped this off from EU, this is hilarious

I'm done here, lemme know when you all want to actually discuss stuff and what happened in the movie and what will happen rather than bitch about it like entitled children, and not go in a circle about it either.

Have a nice day kids

On the contrary, I'd argue that it was far less important in the KotOR plot. Even Master Vandar in the endgame states that destroying the Star Forge is the secondary objective to stopping the Sith, destroying Malak being the first. Similarities to ANH? Yes. 'Rehash' or 'effective clone' like TFA? Most certainly not.

Are...you...kidding...me? The Star Forge WAS the key to stopping the sith because it was behind their power. If it wasn't destroyed then the sith could just keep on building bigger and bigger fleets. The whole point of finding the star maps was to discover the LOCATION OF THE STAR FORGE. Yeah, definitely a minor footnote in the kotor plot. I think you need to play the game again and take off those rose-colored glasses

Can we actually get back to discussing TFA and the new trilogy rather than "who's EU dick is bigger" discussion? EU is no longer canon, and it won't be. Get over it, if you're gonna complain, create a thread about it but for crying out loud this topic is about TFA

The superweapon got boring along time ago, I didnt mind the Starforge because it was more of a space station than a weapon, and the super weapons werent that great in most of the other EU

Except that it still served a similar role in the plot

no... we are all fustrated because they rehashed ANH story line

I said it was added... and just because it had a superweapon doesn't mean it's a rehash of the ANH story line. They may have borrowed several elements, but not to the dramatic extent that you're claiming it did, and the movie managed it and felt fresh. Like I said, if you're so frustrated with this using a superweapon, explain to me why you're not frustrated with ROTJ doing the same thing, or Kotor revolving around a giant mguffin device than can be considered a superweapon, or the thousands of other things in EU which also revolved around superweapons? You still haven't answered me on this

You say how it didn't ruin the movie for you and yet you're obsessing on this one "flaw"

Only a bad thing for certain franchises I think.

 

Mainly the Jedi Knight Series, though to be honest the better idea would be to modify that story with Kyle Katarn to something that fits their timeline more closely.

 

And Knights of the Old Republic or also roughly that general era. The Sith species, Korriban, Ulic Qel Droma, that whole lot.

But that doesn't mean Disney won't re-use or re-incarnate those ideas or stores in either a similar or new form.

But it does not mean that the people who really like EU couldn't have gone through it more than once in last 30 years, now does it?

Added that to my previous post,

Also a lot of the frustration I see is people upset because the EU got deemed non canon, which IMO and in lots of people's opinion is not a bad thing

Well I wouldn't give them a free card, but keep in mind that people tend to be more forgiving to something they've grown used to when they were younger. And it is possible to enjoy the exactly same thing to a certain degree, but at some point, enough is enough. The way I see it, it's a lot like eating. You can eat 1-2 plates of smashed potatoes with no trouble, but trying to eat, say, 10-20 plates in a row...

Except take into account that the last time this dish of potatoes was made in the movies was 30 years and 3 movies ago in the saga,  if we're going to include games then say 10 years ago. I don't count most of the EU comics because I never read those and thus they never really had much hold over me.

It is perfectly possible to not like a certain aspect of the movie, and still like the rest. Saying "this movie has certain issues" does not necessarily mean "this is a bad movie".

Oh believe me, there are people who say that having a superweapon ruins the movie entirely.

Regardless, if we're counting all the times the superweapon has been used then it's strike 20 then, so it's just funny because people are complaining now

Hey guys can explain to me, who are the parents of Rey?

This is something the movie deliberately left unknown so that it may be answered in the next 2 movies, I suspect she's the other child of Han and Leia, but there's also evidence she could be Luke's

It's like ROTJ and Kotor are automatically immune to scrutiny because we loved them so much, but TFA is now subject to it because it "re-uses" a plot point that star wars has been re-hashing for years...

How is TOR canon at all? Disney said anything outside of the movies and the clone wars TV show back in '13 (or was it '14?) was non-canon and they are establishing a new reality. This includes, thankfully, TOR.

Also KOTOR was fine since it was, well, the first... having it done *again* so soon is just... not quite as interesting anymore. But then again from KOTOR1 came KOTOR2, and the movie is not bad by itself (just, the superweapon bit). So the word isn't "angry" but as stated "dissapointed".

This makes absolutely no sense at all. You're giving Kotor a pass because it was the first in a trilogy, but so is TFA and yet you're harping over it as if it pissed all over your cereal. Moviewise, this isthe first star wars movie to use a superweapon plot point since Return of the Jedi, that's over 30 years.

 

KOTOR1 used the SF from the start though (Republic is falling, Sith have unlimited resources, how did this happen, all is lost if nothing changes, FIX IT).

 

Compare that to "LOL, Superweapon" in TFA.

It actually is a similar predicament in TFA if you look at it objectively rather than just judging it because it "has a superweapon"

From what I'm seeing, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but the moment you saw a superweapon, the majority of you who are complaining about it gut reacted.

What s ridiculous statement... No one here is actually saying TFA was a bad movie, but it has several issues such as a copy and paste of EP. 4 plot, a stupid overused super weapon, the movie does not stand on its on (to fully understand everything that has happened, you need to read other material). Im starting to believe that you are just trying to kid yourself into this movie as being the 'perfect' master piece much like the prequal haters who try and claim they are the worst films in history when it is not (No movie can be truly perfect, maybe except TESB)

I just saw this post so forgive me when I have to address it. Like I said, if you really need a whole bunch of material to understand what's going on in TFA, you're doing it wrong. There are a few things left to mystery that will be explained, as it should. First of all, I'm of the opinion that the Prequels are vastly overhated, so don't throw me into that category of blind nostalgia fanboys, second you're once again repeating the same thing you've said "TFA uses over-used plot point of super weapon" I refer you to my many counter-arguments I have made throughout this thread. Please read my original post in this thread as well, because I am not saying this movie is perfect, I'm saying it's better than people give it credit for.

And star wars wasn't originally intended to be a trilogy, this one is, so expect there to be some questions that will be answered in its sequels. Deal with it. Lord of the Rings did the exact same thing and it was brilliant.

This is the last time I'm going to address this whole "superweapon is bad mmkaaay?" mumbo jumbo, I'm moving on from here on out.

the first three seasons of the clone wars were pretty bad

No they weren't.

As for Rebels, you've got to be joking. I want the EU to be used, not massacred by its inclusion in this IMO sad-excuse for a television show!

I'm guessing you hated Clone Wars as well, If you hate Rebels then you my friend are a lost cause ( no offense )

Exactly. I would have preferred to keep ALL of it rather than throw it all out.

Having to sort through all of EU is an immense task, especially when trying to make a movie that can create a new trilogy and stand apart. They will re-incorporate it bit by bit, have faith mate

I doubt that they will use much of it.

Wrong, I can totally see Kylo Renn and Rey having a similar if not the same relationship as Jaina and Jacen did, abliet different since they don't know each other. Disney themselves said that the EU does have some great stuff they can draw on and re-create in their new canon. Who knows, we might even see Thrawn in the next movie ( I actually would have preferred him to General Hux, as cool as he was as the hitler nazi replica, Thrawn would definitely have been a winner for some of the EU fans out there )

I'm not even going to bother responding to the previous post you made Mutilator because that just seems to be a bunch of what you said earlier, only a bit more angry. What I want to say was already said a post earlier, but I'll give you credit for at least attempting to address my points.

I'm tired of going in circles responding to the inane backlash about the supposed fault of the movie re-iterating some of what made the first successful, so I'd like to actually discuss what might happen for the following ones

( and EU wasn't that great to begin with, post ROTJ or Old republic. TOR was utter garbage and ruined the whole Kotor franchise. I'm glad that was retconned. And yes I did make the distinction )

And I'm pretty sure I've given plenty of accounts why the superweapon didn't work and what IMO would work much better instead, only to get a "You SW-fans are a disgrace. If you don't like this movie I hate you!" back. What is this? Episode III?

You completely misread what I said, that's not what I said at all... RIP reading what other people say. I said CERTAIN SW fans, and I had specific points as to why I liked the movie in previous posts and why the plot works. You just kept saying over and over how it's because it was in Episode 4 and supposedly it "doesn't fit the plot" when you don't say how it doesn't fit the plot, nor the people using it.

Let me know when you're willing to address each of my points and we'll talk, because for now it seems you're just making a blanket statement.

So I'm done with this, next.

I would much prefer a "spiritual successor" to Star Wars, where everything from the theme to the characters are drastically different, yet it takes key events from the previous films and gives them a new or fresh prespective.

And that's what I thought this movie was and did, and it's why I liked it. I think a lot of people had some lofty expectations of what this movie was and should be, I didn't I came in blank, expecting to be entertained, have a good time and watch a good movie and I did. I wasn't negative or positive when I came in. People watch this movie I feel, and some just expect it to be something it's not, and when it's not what they expect it to be exactly then it's automatically bad. Not true of most, but there are people who are like that.

And here I thought this would be a fun and engaging conversation about plot theories and where people think the rest of the trilogy is headed...

My thoughts exactly, I didn't want to spend my time trying to defend this movie, rather I wanted to actually talk about where it's headed, but considering how much vitrol has been going on I felt oblidged. (Isn't there a thread for the opinions on it?)

ALL HAIL DARTH PLAGUEIS

Re: Doctor Evil. Deadly Stream, for as long as I've known it, isn't quite like the rest of the internet. This isn't 4chan, people here value being polite. You came into this thread with a chip on your shoulder about certain types of Star Wars fans and people not liking The Force Awakens. I think we've been trying to engage you reasonably. Maybe just take a breather.

My issue is just people hating on something without backing it up when I call them out, that is all. I'd like to engage somebody in a good intellectual discussion, and I came into this thread attempting to defend the movie rather than call people out. Every fanbase has its share of problems, just look at how blind Walking Dead fans are.

'Spiritual rehash', what a euphemistic way of screaming CLONE! Has it occurred to you what forum you're on!? You call the EU a 'pile of trash', exclude all but two story arcs but neglect to mention the Old Republic, the sheer arrogance! You also contradict yourself, you say it 'borrows heavily' and then go on to say that it is not 'effectively a clone', do you know what effectively means? Again your typecasting of SW fans is heavily flawed and incorrect.

Rehash is not the same word as remake, a remake is more akin to Clone than a rehash.

Excuse me, by EU I meant everything after Return of the Jedi EU, since that's what I assumed EU generally referred to. While I said borrows heavily, I meant in terms of how it was borrowed rather than how much as borrowed, but borrows nonetheless. I'll try to be more clear next time.

Please don't jump to conclusions or gut-react. I didn't say ALL star wars fans.

 

IMO I'm saying it was weak. Of course it was the central premise of the entire movie, but what I was saying was that it was a weak plot for a movie because it is never well-established why it is so damn important to find him! If that had been the case then there would have been no need for another silly superweapon!

Luke skywalker had practically become a legend amongst most people in the galaxy despite the events of 30 years ago, but remember that the Empire, being a facist regime, most likely downplayed or even outright denied the claim of the emperor's death. Given the presence of the First Order, Jedi are generally best for resolving issues, who better than get the last of the Jedi? And the Superweapon, as I said, is there because the First Order is basically a bunch of people attempting to re-create the Galactic Empire, and the Galactic Empire was all about dominance through power

 

You misunderstand. Herein lies the problem, an issue that could have easily-been resolved but WASN'T. It is not about a silver platter, its movie-making 101, a backstory should be EXPLAINED. If this movie needs another to make sense then it has profound flaws as whilst the originals were of course, created to be understood in a trilogy, the difference was that they ALL WORKED ALONE WELL.

So because the movie leaves you with questions it automatically makes it worse? It's what entices you to watch the following movies. The original movie was made standalone because there was no guarantee it was going to be a hit, and when it was they wanted to follow up on that success, that's what bred the originals as a successive arc. If anything leaving us wondering gives us something to think about, and I like to think in movies. Let's take a look at Interstellar. The backstory of the movie isn't entirely clear, but we know that the Earth is slowly becoming more toxic to humans, and that society has degraded due to a large famine, though we don't know to what point. The backstory for TFA is that the old governments are gone, what happened is becoming stories told to a new generation, and with the vacuum in power, someone is about to take over. That someone is the First Order, and I don't think the New Republic was nearly as strong as either the Empire or the Republic.

 

So its our fault that we have expectations befitting of the SW universe? Perverse logic indeed. You act as though the choices of the film's creators were not their own, yet all the way through they *chose* to play it safe, all of the opportunities for them to make something new were there in front of them.

No, what I'm saying is that because of the backlash, it caused a fear of such happening again. There's nothing stopping them from creating something new in the following movies, and this is only the start of a trilogy, so I don't get why we're automatically trashing it because it has some parts similar to what we've seen before, it's like trashing a TV show when you haven't even seen 3 episodes of it.

 

What are you failing to understand in my arguments? I am angry because it is old and used, its creative potential wasted. If they had used the plot of another movie (Avatar using Dances with Wolves for example) that would be another matter, but using almost the exact same story within their own universe, worse, within their own trilogies is simply lazy and poor writing.

It's common principle that films and writers copy off themselves, big or small. Return of the Jedi did it with the Death Star, Phantom Menace did it with the explosion of the Droid control ship. The big battle above Coruscant in Episode 3? Reminiscent of Episode 4. The quest to find the star forge and destroy it? Reminiscent of Episode 4. Discovering you're the evil sith lord behind Darth Malak? Reminiscent of Episode V. Like I said, this logic automatically makes lots of Star Wars automatically worse because it re-uses ideas from its predecessors. It's not poor writing when done right while feeling fresh and the movie, in my opinion and in lots of other people's opinion, did both.

TBQH the concept for this would have worked better as a game... but since Disney gave EA the keys to SW gaming I'm actually fine with this being a film

So far the only SW-fan I find obnoxious is you. And "I think this, I am right, you are wrong. If you disagree with me you're a horrible person. That's fact" only reinforces that.

How am I obnoxious when I'm simply asking you to address my points when you still haven't? I apologize if I come off as blunt and a bit sarcastic, but if you're going to get upset about that then the internet isn't for you.

I actually want an intelligent discussion on this, but all I'm getting back is "OH ITS OVERUSED BLAH BLAH BLAH ITS NOW A BAD MOVIE/DOESNT COMPARE or IT DOESNT FIT WITH THE PLOT", so excuse me for sounding a bit frustrated when people seem to make a mountain over a molehill on one point that had similarity to Episode IV, I'm shocked you're not complaining about how Jakku was practically Tatooine.

Would it make you happier, if I would say that I, for one, was sick of it in RotJ, already? Not to mention a similar "a huge explosion of a big spherical thing" in TPM...

 

Superweapons can be cool, and big explosions in space battles can be cool, but they grow old when overused.

Then I can understand your frustration, because for people to be criticizing TFA's usage of the superweapon is ridiculous when ROTJ did the same thing.

In my opinion it works because, like I said, it's been a long time since we had Episode 4, and even episode 6, and those were the last star wars movies revolving around a superweapon. We live in the era of re-makes, and while it did rehash Episode 4 a bit, I think it brought enough new to the table to make it feel fresh

Because it really feels like ANH re-done and I was hoping to see a *new* Star Wars movie?

 

It's... really not that hard.

And we already explained why it's completely ridicilous in this movie.

Still waiting for you to address my points on how it completely ruins the movie, let alone form a convincing argument. Use dem quotes son

It was both old and new, and I already explained why it's not completely ridiculous in this movie and how you're logic makes it completely ridiculous for any Star Wars movie. You're proving me right more and more about star wars fans in general, just sayin.

I loved the movie, the critics loved the movie, a lot of people loved the movie, so you're pretty much in the minority in this one

You keep saying that... but I don't think anyone in this thread besides you believes it. I certainly never met Star Wars fans like that. It seems you have a pretty skifted view, and no I don't like being compared to it like it's some fact...

Can you please use quotes like I do so I know what point you're addressing? It's awful confusing, also wondering if you might address what else I said because I still have been waiting on that from anyone.

I'll assume you're referring to my calling out SW fans, of course you don't believe it because we're on a Star Wars forum and I'm guessing a lot of you are more hardcore fans than I am, don't take it personally mate but the fact is when people are called out for something they tend to deny it, it's human nature. Way I see it, the lot of you are looking through rose-colored glasses at this. Not saying all Star Wars fans are like that, but there are quite a few who mouth off about any little thing. If the superweapon plot is so boring and bland, then by that logic ANH and ROTJ suck because superweapons weren't exactly an original concept even back then.

Still don't get why re-used plot points ruins the movie so badly for some of you, especially since it's been nearly 40 years since ANH came out. If anything, that movie deserved somewhat of a remake and this was both that and something new at the same time.

But don't you see that is the problem? They played it so safe that they ended up creating effectively a clone. By the way I reject wholeheartedly your typecasting of SW fans. We're not critical of everything, we just expect that when you throw out over 30 years of content that you replace it with something that is at least a tad unique. Otherwise, what was the point of getting rid of all those perfectly good stories that could have worked fine, Thrawn, the Emperor Reborn...

What they did was create spiritual rehash of Episode IV by bringing back certain ideas of what made the first great. Films copy off their predecessors all the damn time, and LMAO EU was a pile of trash other than the jedi knight series and Thrawn as you said. Emperor Reborn was about as intelligent as dumb and dumber.

The movie was intended to be for the next generation of movie-goers while giving the oldies some nostalgia.. .Yes it borrows heavily, but I don't get why that's such a bad thing when it works fine. And no, it's not effectively a clone, there are quite some differences between this and Episode IV mate.

I am a Star Wars fan, but sometimes I'm ashamed to be one because of how autistic certain fans can act, especially when they blindly hate the prequels when they weren't nearly as bad as what people say they are (though they aren't good).

 

The issue here was the premise of finding Luke was really weak and never well-established. In the end, it felt like the scriptwriters realised this and tried to compensate by inserting a completely unnecessary superweapon into the movie. If the finding Luke arc was so good, would it not be good enough to stand on its own?

I don't get where you're getting this idea of finding Luke is a weak plot and got overshadowed. It was still one of the main points of the movie, but destroying a weapon that can suck up stars takes precedence. It wasn't necessarily a huge arc on its own more or less a plot point

 

Believe you me, I thought this too and speculated wildly. But if it takes another movie to resolve what should be a simple explanation of the state of the galaxy, easily discussed in a single line of expository dialogue then the movie has issues.

This was an issue I believe could have been easily resolved in the opening text crawl, but if you need a movie to explain everything to you on a silver platter with no explanation at all then go watch the originals again. These movies are intended to be trilogy rather than stand-alone-ish like the originals were.

And thus, it had no place.

 

It was all "Find Luke, find Luke, find Luke, find Luke... suddenly... superweapon... superweapon dead?... okay, deus ex machina resolution to find Luke... and; movie's over.

 

See how it could have been omitted. Heck, it BEING omitted would have improved the movie? It seriously is just... there... no reason, no specific plots, au contraire, it's a plotholder!

Yes, let's put Rey on some generic prison ship/station/planet 101 that's completely forgettable and serves no purpose but to just hold Rey prisoner, how dare it have more than one use! How dare it be a superweapon for a regime that models itself off the Galactic Empire, a regime that ruled through fear of destruction!

It's there because it's the First Order's tool for victory over the Republic, and it's also there because like it or not, this movie isn't geared just those who saw the originals and loved it but for, like I said and Disney said, the next generation.

If you want to blame somebody for how the movie "played it safe", then blame yourselves because the Star Wars fans were what cause George Lucas to change the plot of the prequels (even though they weren't good anyway), and fear of fan backlash is what drove them to make the movie somewhat safe.

I don't get why you all are so angry at them re-using the superweapon again, because by that logic then ROTJ is automatically worse for it using a second Death Star. I was happy they modeled it somewhat off A New Hope because it's the start of something good for star wars.

The entire premise of trashing the EU was to remove the shackles and story restrictions that this imposed on the new trilogy. If they used that opportunity to make a movie which was effectively a rehash of another classic, with parralels, allusions and references as far as the eye can see then I think it's safe to say that they played it *too* safe and I would venture to say, wasted the opportunity. 

Considering how Star Wars fans can get extremely critical of anything it was pretty clear they'd play this one safe since it was their first entry into the saga

Nail on the head, although I felt even in ROTJ it was stretching it a little thin. They got around this however, by revolving the story around not the super weapon but around Luke, his father and the Emperor.

The movie wasn't necessarily about the superweapon either, it was about locating luke. Starkiller merely was the place where Rey was being held, and it wasn't discovered until half-way through the movie

Exactly. I had no emotional involvement in the Republic's (demise?). While were on it too, what was the purpose of differentiating the Resistance and Republic - had me scratching my head the entire movie.

Perhaps the Republic became complacent and the Resistance was a disgruntled faction within that wanted to take action? Who knows, the answers will probably be revealed in 8, or most likely in 9