I don't know what was in the full original description of your mod, so I'm assuming the permission consisted only of what was written in the post.

You're right in saying that 'using the work in a mod' does not mean that 'uploading the work unchanged by itself' is okay, and that the person in question misinterpreted your permissions.

But speaking generally about permissions, I think there may be a flaw in your logic, SH. Since there are no universal written rules and explanations about what proper modding etiquette is, different people may understand it differently.

For example, my experience with permissions comes mostly from using models from Sketchfab and similar sites. Many models are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution (CCA). In the Comments section under models, in addition to discussions, advices and screenshots of a model ported into the game, sometimes polite people also ask about permission to use the model in video, games, etc. And I noticed that some authors responded with something like “Yes, that’s why I specifically published the model with a free license. Why are you still asking? Just use it already however you like". And it’s easy to understand why: the authors release dozens of models, hundreds of people download them, even if every 100th asks for obvious things (about permissions when they are written on the page), it will become annoying. At the same time, I've seen some modders (retired and active) respond that they don't care/are not interested in what people do with their old mods as they move on. Some authors ask to inform them about the use of their work in other mods because they are interested, but others do not specify anything at all and I wonder if they will be bothered if I write to them about some years-old model?

Since then, I've taken a stance: if the modder has allowed everyone to use the mod/model, then be grateful, respect the author and their time, and don't bother them unless you have something to say/to show. In my opinion, it would be better to thank the modder and show them how their work helped create a great new mod, than to ask for permissions (which are already given in the Readme), waste the person's time, create expectations and then fail to produce anything.

Modders in the KOTOR community usually don't publish mods under licenses, but the terms 'You can use/modify the mod, just credit the author' written on the mod page or in the Readme file can be considered the equivalent of CCA license. It does not impose any obligations other than “attribution.”

If the mod author does not specify additional requirements/wishes, then the user (especially if he is not an active member of the community) may not be able to know their preferences and will have to rely on his own inner judgment. Whether he contact the mod author before or after the release, or not at all, depends on the user.

To avoid misunderstandings about 'permissions', modders should write their requirements as clearly as possible, so that there is no potential ambiguity, and expect users to do only what is written in the permissions.

I don't know how things are in other modding communities, but even as far back as Lucasforums, we had a general good faith policy of communicating with the mod authors. A form of common courtesy to reach out and check in with them. This allowed for open communication, everyone being aware (as they could be) of what was going on, and even assisting in refining the work or helping to avoid pitfalls. And that was a wonderful system.

The point was the common courtesy and being able to have evidence of a good-faith attempt to update the mod author on things. Even with KotOR's Filefront died, we as staff discussed and agreed on a process using the community's historical precedent of good-faith contacts. We checked each author's permissions and when necessary, we reached out to those authors through any channels we had. Then we waited a respectable time for a response (I can't recall how long that time was, but I believe it was at least a month). This was well-received by many, and a key point was that we reached out before we went and did a thing.

Now, I realize that was years ago and cultural norms shift, especially online, but this has usually never been an issue in this community. I can well understand SH's response to getting told about `proper modding etiquette`; SH has been a stable pillar when it comes to that very concept for well over a decade. The seeming lack of perspective to realize that is surprising. I don't know if the person frequents NexusMods more than here, or how knew they might be, but I foresee this problem could come up more and more over time with the sheer size of an outlet like NexusMods.

Quote

While it is true that in the original description of the mod it did say “If you use it in a mod, all I ask for is a credit. Thanks.”, I’ll note that there’s proper etiquette of how to go about this.  It’s called “getting permission” or you’re less fancy “getting an OK” before uploading someone else’s work.  I’ve been involved in the community for years.  No one has seemingly had trouble getting in touch with me. So, I do have to wonder – what was the difficulty here then?

Just to mention something else here: “Use it in a mod” means “use it in a mod.” It does not mean just upload the work unchanged all by itself.

Interestingly enough, this unnamed person on their “guide” for BOS:SR includes links to other mods both here and on NexusMods.  Why was uploading my mod to NexusMods even necessary in the first place?

I agree, if he isn't including it in some greater BOSSR mod pack why on earth would he upload it to Nexus? If you're making a list of mods, whether it be one person's "guide" or Snigaroo's Mod Builds, the fact that it is a list means that all the mods listed are optional as the user has free will to pick and choose what mods they want to use.

 

With that in mind, what benefit does this guy get by having your mod on Nexus if this is all for a guide?

 

Quote

Lastly “unnamed person”, I am somewhat amused by your parting shot on modding etiquette. You see, I’ve had a reputation around these parts having taken a hard line on mod rules.  I’m sure I can get some folks in the comments to say how much of a hard-liner

Sith Holocron is a hard-liner when it comes to mod rules.

 

<Insert 1984 joke here>

I just skimmed over these various walls of text, but regarding the "why", I assume this is down to the Collections feature on Nexus only being able to link to mods on Nexus itself.

21 hours ago, DarthParametric said:

I just skimmed over these various walls of text, but regarding the "why", I assume this is down to the Collections feature on Nexus only being able to link to mods on Nexus itself.

Let me post the relevant portion so you can see what I mean without having scour through the whole thing...

 

I'll point out that my mod is now linked in the post which raises the question as others have as well: Why not just do that in the first place?

Hi everyone! just happened to come across this and I am glad that I did. Firstly, this is about me.  as someone who used to be top of their class in spelling and took public speaking in college before undergoing brain damage due to a tumor, I will ignore corrections on my grammar as they are usually appreciated and take it as such and not as a petty action by someone.

Secondly, the KOTOR modding community has been dying slowly over the years, with various mod authors either abandoning their work or leaving it up to the end user to try and make sense on the status of their work.

As the custodian of BOSSR on Nexus for almost a decade, I have spent YEARS seeing comment after comment from Nexus users asking for bug Fixes, new content, or a modern uplift. One day after struggling with the concept of purpose in life, I remembered that I was the uploader of a much loved mod on Nexus, and wanted my legacy to the community to be one where someone went back and gave a special project that meant so much to quite a few people, a lot of love. I haven't modded Kotor in almost as long, fiddling with level files in KOTOR tool years back, only to give up after losing motivation. I myself was blown away that so many BOSSR mods existed, though I had to scroll through not one  but three pages of misc posts on this site to find all the BOSSR related mods but that is an issue for another day.

I saw sites like Filefront/Kotorfiles go from Millions of users, to almost none, and while Deadlystream has had a few mod authors still actively release updates for our favorite game, it has dwindled. While Nexus Mods however has skyrocketed in users this past decade. I felt like while it was in no way my business uploading others mods without user permission, anything that modified BOSSR would be allowed as I had permission from Silveredge9 to upload/maintain his work back then. I thought that BOSSR related mods  if not already on nexus and not forbidden in the users credit would be perfectly fine at this late state of KOTORs Shelf Life.

I felt inspired, knowing that users would be much happier having files all in one location instead of haphazardly searching numerous other websites on the internet for a mod that was already almost 20 years old. People like you and me might know deadlystream exists, but ask any of my gamer friends about where they get their mods, and they will say Nexus.

I feel that it is in the best interests of the Kotor community to band together and encourage, not discourage, the bundling of mods for major projects. Some projects on Deadlystream have suffered because users felt more interest in only maintaining their own works, rather than contributing to bigger projects. This has done a disservice to the KOTOR modding community as a whole in my opinion.

Again, I feel strongly that if a mod expressly prohibits the uploading of it to another site (even with a dependent mod) that the authors wishes should be honored.

My immediate first response to SH when he said, "take it down." was "Mod has been removed!" or something along those lines, with a sad but understanding feeling in my heart. However his next line, "Have you uploaded anything else of mine?" then "I think the problem is that you never asked Bud" Made me feel a bit worried about the types of users who if I wanted to update BOSSR to 2024 standards, would respond in kind. If only because SH had uploaded SWTOR asset files here without contacting Bioware if they could be hosted on another site, surely hosting a mod to BOSSR under a very prominent file after the permissions clearly stated that "a credit would suffice" wouldn't be an issue.

If this posts sounds a bit emotional, I agree that it is, I've got my health and dwindling years to worry about, not the stress of being kicked in the nuts while trying to preserve and update a beloved staple of my childhood.

I meant what I said when I apologized to him for the offense caused and hoped that no one else would repeat the same mistake, because it was a mistake, but I do know that users such as myself would be delighted to have their works (I was an author before my medical issues) preserved for prosperity and made more accessible. (Well cept for one of mine, but that crap deserves to be lost to time)

On a separate note:

If anyone is reading this and hasn't considered it before PLEASE PRESERVE YOUR WORKS ON MULTIPLE SITES IN COMPILATIONS!!! With the loss of Yuzu and other beloved emulators this past week, game preservation (and in turn romhack/mod preservation) has been dealt another large blow. If you are interested in your hard earned works outlasting a space of time, band together and allow people to post your works with credit, if you say Nahh, then well ok, but whenever they get lost to the annals of internet time, don't say you wern't forewarned. As someone who struggles with the concept of legacy as they see their end coming soon, I have become rather obsessed with mod and game preservation, so if this post also seems a bit high and mighty/woe is me, well it kinda is and I apologize but I felt it was necessary.

Should I have tried to reach out? yes and I apologize, I'm sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by Grisham4life

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

as someone who used to be top of their class in spelling and took public speaking in college before undergoing brain damage due to a tumor, I will ignore corrections on my grammar as they are usually appreciated and take it as such and not as a petty action by someone.

There's no way SH would've known that, if he did I'm sure he wouldn't have made a snarky remark.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

Secondly, the KOTOR modding community has been dying slowly over the years,

That's debatable.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

with various mod authors either abandoning their work or leaving it up to the end user to try and make sense on the status of their work.

Also debatable, and as if that doesn't happen in other modding communities.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

I saw sites like Filefront/Kotorfiles go from Millions of users, to almost none, and while Deadlystream has had a few mod authors still actively release updates for our favorite game, it has dwindled.

Modding isn't a quick or easy task, and modding Kotor isn't easy to learn. The dwindling number (also debatable) of modders doesn't mean the Kotor community is dying as a whole. The modder's work would be in vain if not for the hundreds of non-modders who download and play our mods, and with YouTubers and Gaming websites claiming Kotor is one of the best Star Wars game ever made, the lackluster progress of the Kotor remake, the controversy of the TSLRCM DLC cancellation and the release of Kotor to modern gaming systems like Android, iOS, Xbox Series X and the Switch the number of people flocking our community will only increase as these old games are introduced to a younger audience.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

While Nexus Mods however has skyrocketed in users this past decade.

If an entire decade is taken into account then yes, NexusMods has skyrocketed thanks to the hundreds of Gamefront archive mods which were added and later removed within the past decade.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

I felt like while it was in no way my business uploading others mods without user permission, anything that modified BOSSR would be allowed as I had permission from Silveredge9 to upload/maintain his work back then. I thought that BOSSR related mods  if not already on nexus and not forbidden in the users credit would be perfectly fine at this late state of KOTORs Shelf Life.

Calling Kotor a "late state in it's shelf life" is very much debatable, considering what I mentioned earlier about it being released on modern gaming systems + the Kotor Remake.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

I felt inspired, knowing that users would be much happier having files all in one location instead of haphazardly searching numerous other websites on the internet for a mod that was already almost 20 years old.

In this case, the opinion of the guy who made the mod in question outweighs the opinions of the Nexus users I'm afraid.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

People like you and me might know deadlystream exists, but ask any of my gamer friends about where they get their mods, and they will say Nexus.

Do your gamer friends play Kotor?

 

Nexus hosts mods for many different video games whilst Deadlystream almost exclusively caters to the Kotor games, and with the Deadlystream forum for the discussion of Kotor mods and the Deadlystream Staff being associated with the Kotor community Reddit and Discord (just checked right now and there's over a 1000 users active in that Discord) it makes sense why many Kotor mods are dominated by Deadlystream and not Nexus.

 

Not to mention the controversy with NexusMods a few years back with their updated terms & conditions, I'm sure another user can chip in on that as some users of Deadlystream really didn't like that change.

 

And with me, I don't care where I get my mods from. I'll download K1CP from Deadlystream and some HD graphic mods from Nexus, and I don't care... because at the end of the day it isn't about "brand loyalty". If you want to play a mod from Nexus, do it... if you want to play a mod from Deadlystream, do it. But I would never expect Kotor modders on Nexus to migrate to Deadlystream just because I want to download all my mods from the same place.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

I feel that it is in the best interests of the Kotor community to band together and encourage, not discourage, the bundling of mods for major projects.

Now you're opening a can of worms with that proposal. That proposal has been proposed time & time again on Deadlystream, Reddit, Nexus, Discord and beyond and each time these proposals for a unified mod pack falls flat on its face for a variety of reasons.

 

Let's say a mod I've made, Heart of Beskar for example, is added to this mod pack. What if I update my mod and change things? What if I update my mod and fix things? What if I totally revamp my mod from the ground up? Can I trust the author behind the mod pack to update the pack accordingly? And even if they do why should *I* have to ensure that they do this, why should I have to worry about making my mod compatible for someone else's mod pack?

 

Now you're concerned about modders leaving the community and abandoning their mods, how would I know if the author behind the mod pack doesn't also leave the community? If that happens that means this mod pack can't be updated, so if there's any bugs in the pack it *can't* be fixed.

 

A major problem with Kotor mod packs is *what* exactly is included in this pack? What if you decide to add all the popular HD texture packs, DarkHope's character texture and HQ models and the overall mod pack size is several terabytes? Why on earth would I want to download that when I can pick exactly what I want if I download them individually?

 

What if your pack contains K1R? I don't want to play K1R, I want to play the K1CP + RC-K1CP. What if your pack contains K1CP + RC-K1CP, I don't want to play those mods... I want to play K1R. What if your pack contains BOSSR? I don't want to play BOSSR. What if your pack doesn't contain BOSSR? I want to play BOSSR.

 

As with the example above, you'll inevitably get a problem where people will just keep proposing and proposing new mods to be added to the project which fundamentally change the style and the flow of the overall pack, leading to conflicts that'll need to be meshed out and a lot of hard work to be done to maintain this gigantic Frankenstein of a mod pack. Let's say for example there are 5 of my mods in this mod pack, why should I then debug and bug fix my 5 mods when 50 radically different and incompatible mods are causing the problems. Why would I want to deal with other people's work and why would other people want to deal with mine?

 

Mods are constantly updating, either because of new content or bug fixes. By making a mod pack, you need to keep track of these updates and ensure that these mods aren't conflicting.

 

The closest thing the Kotor Modding Community has ever gotten to a mod pack is the Kotor 1 and 2 Community Patches, and whilst these mods have become dominant behemoths in the Modding Community standing side by side with TSLRCM and eclipsing K1R in terms of popularity, these mods have somewhat "ruined" bug fix mods. Why would other modders now make bug fix mods when you can simply report it on the K1CP github and have DarthParametric fix the bug for you and add it to the K1CP instead.

 

Many of my old mods are part of the K1CP, and now since K1CP has become the "must have" mod my old mods are now obsolete from a certain point of view. Now, K1CP *does* have its benefits... it's ONLY a bug fix mod pack and general improvements mod and it's really strict in that regard, now if you have a mod pack of a bunch of different popular mods this same effect could happen to many more mods then just bug fix mods.

 

Why would I want to make a Jedi Robe reskin when JC's Cloaked Robes is included in the popular mod pack everyone plays? Why would I want to make more mods if it's just going to get added to the mod pack? Why would I want to update my mods when this can cause problems for the big mod pack?

 

If anything, an all encompassing mod pack of textures and bug fixes and restorations and BOSSR and whatever else could harm the modding community instead of saving it. People are making their mods and releasing them today just fine without a mod pack, and the continuously updated Mod Builds serves as both a list and as a guide for compatible mods which could all be used together.

 

Why have an all encompassing mod pack when you can have an all encompassing mod build that players can pick and choose what they want, they can install mods based on their system requirements and their own tastes. Install all the mod build mods, or don't, it doesn't really matter... and that's the point!

 

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

Some projects on Deadlystream have suffered because users felt more interest in only maintaining their own works, rather than contributing to bigger projects. This has done a disservice to the KOTOR modding community as a whole in my opinion.

In your opinion.

 

Tell me... what projects are you referring to?

 

Modding is a hobby, it doesn't matter if the mod is TSLRCM or the Brutal Carth mod.

 

TSLRCM was made and finished because Zbyl2 and the TSLRCM dev team pushed through, BOSSR was made and finished because SilverEdge9 and his contributors pushed through, K1R was made and abandoned because ZM90 left the community, ROR was made and was abandoned for some time because Logan had medical issues.

 

At the end of the day, modding is a hobby and all modders have the right to step away from the community if we wish. Modding isn't a job, we don't get paid, this is our passion and our hobby... if more pressing matters pop up we have every right to leave the community. Not only that, we have every right to work, or not to work, on the mods we want to make. Many modders don't want to drop their own mods and their irl plans to work on some greater project. I don't want to work on K1CP and DarthParametric probably doesn't want to work on something I'm working on.

 

And you're not the only one who shares this opinion, but the others who wish everyone could unite to make some epic big Kotor mod has also come to learn that modders want to do their own thing, and that's just the way it is.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

Again, I feel strongly that if a mod expressly prohibits the uploading of it to another site (even with a dependent mod) that the authors wishes should be honored.

From my own interpretation, SH only gave a vague sense of permission if you included it in another mod with credit. You just reuploaded it to NexusMods first as is and only afterwards did you ask him for permission.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

My immediate first response to SH when he said, "take it down." was "Mod has been removed!" or something along those lines, with a sad but understanding feeling in my heart.

If you had contacted him before you uploaded the mod he would've told you no and you wouldn't have had to remove it. This is the lesson to be learned from all of this.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

However his next line, "Have you uploaded anything else of mine?" then "I think the problem is that you never asked Bud" Made me feel a bit worried about the types of users who if I wanted to update BOSSR to 2024 standards, would respond in kind. If only because SH had uploaded SWTOR asset files here without contacting Bioware if they could be hosted on another site, surely hosting a mod to BOSSR under a very prominent file after the permissions clearly stated that "a credit would suffice" wouldn't be an issue.

Ok, bringing porting into this as a sort of gotcha is like pointing a gun at every single modder and user in the Kotor Community who has ever ported, or has ever used, a ported content mod. Modding as a whole is a legal gray area, I can think of no better way of getting Deadlystream and its mods banned then contacting the mega game dev corporations with armies of lawyers at their disposal... and that includes BOSSR, and subsequently, the so-called "legacy" you are trying to build.

 

You chose to upload SH's mod to NexusMods first and then asked him for permission after the fact, he told you "no, remove it". That's it, end of story.

 

And his permission clearly stated it had to be included IN another mod, not reuploaded. And no offense, BOSSR is just another mod in our eyes. It isn't the end of the world if you can't download the legal screen mod from Nexus.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

I meant what I said when I apologized to him for the offense caused and hoped that no one else would repeat the same mistake, because it was a mistake, but I do know that users such as myself would be delighted to have their works (I was an author before my medical issues) preserved for prosperity and made more accessible.

SH's work is preserved... on Deadlystream, if he wants to upload it to Nexus he'll upload it himself if he wanted to.
 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

On a separate note:

If anyone is reading this and hasn't considered it before PLEASE PRESERVE YOUR WORKS ON MULTIPLE SITES IN COMPILATIONS!!!

Now, what do you mean by "compilations"? If that's just a fancy word for "mod pack" then I'm sure that, with my previous wall of text, you should already have a good idea of why a mod pack on different websites isn't going to work.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

With the loss of Yuzu and other beloved emulators this past week, game preservation (and in turn romhack/mod preservation) has been dealt another large blow.

I have no idea what any of those things are or what significance they may have.

 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:32 PM, Grisham4life said:

If you are interested in your hard earned works outlasting a space of time, band together and allow people to post your works with credit, if you say Nahh, then well ok, but whenever they get lost to the annals of internet time, don't say you wern't forewarned. As someone who struggles with the concept of legacy as they see their end coming soon, I have become rather obsessed with mod and game preservation, so if this post also seems a bit high and mighty/woe is me, well it kinda is and I apologize but I felt it was necessary.

Now... why can't we preserve our own mods how we wish? Why should I give permission for someone else to upload my mod to Nexus when I can do it myself?

Now, I really want you to know that I'm not trying to belittle you for your views. You're a very passionate person when it comes to Kotor mods, I too used to adore BOSSR when I was younger, it's why I became a modder in the first place. But I need you to understand that many modders don't share your view on things. The majority of Kotor mods are on Deadlystream and the major Kotor communities like Reddit and Discord would all agree that Deadlystream outclasses NexusMods in many metrics when it comes to the Kotor games.

 

Your odd beliefs where the Kotor Community is somehow "dying" whilst the NexusMods Kotor section is simultaneously growing and how it is "so necessary" to migrate our mods to Nexus for the sake of archiving them is either a sign of severe bias to NexusMods or a sign of delusion.

 

And I need to make this last point clear, the internet is an anonymous place (not really, but my point still stands). If I walk past SH in the streets, I wouldn't know it, and he wouldn't know it was me... because we're "anonymous". I'm just "N-DReW25" with the Scout profile and SH is just "Sith Holocron" with a Sith Holocron profile. He doesn't really know me just as I don't really know him. Just as we don't really know you, how can SH and I know what you've just told me is the truth? How do we know you haven't written up a sob story in hopes SH will change his mind & go "Oh, I'll let you upload it to NexusMods".

 

So as I said earlier, Sith Holocron is a hard-liner when it comes to mod rules... and I doubt it'll ever change.

I want to agree with N-DReW25 with most of the above, though I'd likely not have the last three paragraphs were I writing it. Granted, people know I tend to err on the side of nice and overly-cautious with my wordings.

First thing first: There was no way I could have possibly known you have a terminal illness involving a brain tumor.  If you've publicly spoken about this before, I certainly wasn't privy to it. It is unfortunate and I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, @Grisham4life.

With the certain knowledge of your mortality in front of you, I'm not the one to decide what your legacy is.  That's on you.  However, I might suggest filling in your "About Me" section on the Nexus so folks might see how you want others to see your legacy.  Plan ahead, and let those that read the page know you before you are gone.  I should hope your legacy is more than an old large scale KotOR mod (and assorted ancillary mods) - especially as you haven't created any of them.  You are not defined by your illness.  You might want to talk about that book, for example.

As for my mod, if you had asked me for permission beforehand, I not only would have given you permission but also thanked you in the process.  However with all that's now gone now, that window has closed. And if it isn't too snobby of me to mention: for someone that liked my mod enough to appropriate it, I haven't seen a review of the mod on the page.

I accept your apology and consider this matter closed.

Best of health moving forward.