[KotOR] Should Bastila be attacked on sight by Taris Sith patrols?

[Salk 376]

Hello!

I happened to find here on this site this interesting Operation Kill Bastila Remade modification and I am a little ambivalent about it so I wanted to ask fellow KotOR fans about how things should be in their opinion. What do you think?

Cheers!

[Hunters Run 57]

Why am I tempted to vote no on this one?

[Salk 376]

7 hours ago, Hunters Run said:

Why am I tempted to vote no on this one?

Well, it'd be perfectly legit.

My own reason for it would be that Lord Malak wanted Bastila captured rather than killed. 

On the other hand opening fire on her would be the closest thing to it and role playing wise it'd make sense to me.

[AmanoJyaku 184]

You attack the Sith throughout the game with Bastila in your party, and none of them says "Lord Malak wants her captured alive!" Malak surely wouldn't prioritize a soldier or officer over Bastila, it's obviously game mechanics.

So, the limited game mechanic means Sith should attack Bastila on sight.

OTOH, the Sith officers and soldiers are often stupid...

[KnifeMaster 33]

I think this could work if done well. I've always thought it was funny that she could just run around Taris in her signature clothes, waving her lightsaber in everyone's face. And even the official cover art shows her fighting a Dark Jedi in the Upper City, as others have pointed out before.

Spoiler

https://www.dvd-covers.org/d/4328-5/Star_Wars_Knight_Of_The_Old_Republic_DVD_PAL_f.jpg

But it could definitely feel clunky and annoying if implemented poorly. I like the idea behind Operation Kill Bastila, but it seems odd just to give her a hood lol. Maybe another set of clothes/armor could be added to the inventory after the Brejik encounter? Maybe some variant of the commoner clothing?

[Salk 376]

Thanks for your opinions, AmanoJyaku and KnifeMaster.

I didn't install Operation Kill Bastila because at the moment I am busy with other work so I have no idea how good the hood/cloak disguise is and how smoothly this has been introduced in the game but the idea itself has merit, in my opinion.

Probably what I would go for is to simply provide a mask for Bastila to wear (I don't believe a cloak is necessary) without which she is attacked on sight by the Sith patrols. I am a little uncertain about whether wielding the lightsaber should trigger the attack with or without mask though. 

The weapon would be visible but on the other hand is not that conspicuous unless it's on.

I'm trying to think what kind of headgear the part can find/buy on Taris but it seems to me there are no such items that completely cover the face there.

Cheers!

 

 

[Ragnarök 26]

From an RP standpoint: Yes, since there is no expression for enemies to attempt to capture you in the game, killing on sight is a reasonable action. Moreover, it's clear while Malak preferred to take her alive, he wasn't that concerned about it given he ordered the entire planet destroyed just to remove her as a factor once it became obvious he wouldn't find her.

An easy solution would have been to just have a quest in the game that allowed you to find a disguise for her, but I guess Bioware never thought of it. It's amusing though that for some reason they made a huge deal of her being recognized on Korriban, but not on Taris, despite all of the Sith actively looking for her there. Lol.

As an aside though, it doesn't make sense for any of your Force Sensitive party members to be allowed on Korriban, since Uthar or Yuthura would pick up on their sensitivity immediately and the jig would be up.

[Salk 376]

Speaking of Korriban, I have been thinking that my strongest objection to the Operation Kill Bastila approach may as well be that the disguise provided would allow for a relatively "safe" visit of Bastila on Korriban which is something the original game (in my own mod, I allow the Player to choose to either have or not Bastila on Korriban) won't permit.

This would be an internal inconsistency which is not really acceptable, unless the Taris disguise is lost when the party leaves Taris but then again how smooth can something like that be?

I guess in the end the best thing is to keep things as they are.

Thanks for participating to the poll!

[Hunters Run 57]

This thread just created feature creep for the mod:

 

• Optional checkpoints version. You get stopped at  checkpoints after you recruit Bastila.  If you tick him off or otherwise every sith guard in the area becomes hostile.  
• Make the mask and cowl a headgear if possible. Right now it is an outfit. 
• Destroy the disguise after escaping Taris.  It already does this, but it adds it back to the players inventory afterwords(long story).
• Re-brand  due to above optional to Operation: Bastila.

Eta- when it's done. 

Thoughts?

 

[Salk 376]

Well, the second point was what I was thinking of too and I said it in my post.

The first point seems to me over the top and not really necessary. There are already Sith Patrols and checkpoints (elevators) on Taris. There is no real need to add more.

The third point instead is a key point. The disguise must be made useless/unavailable and for some reason irreplaceable (the latter is going to be tough... what kind of non artificial reason can there be to the impossibility of finding any kind of mask that covers the face, if that is enough to make Bastila unrecognizable on Korriban too?)

[KnifeMaster 33]

A mask of some kind could work, but I don't know how many Sith would be fooled by something like:

Spoiler

If you decide to integrate the Dark Jedi attack seen on the cover art, I guess you could have a small group attack the party if Bastila isn't in disguise, but that's just an idea. Maybe it would be better to stick with attacks from troopers. However the disguise is handled, though, it should definitely be destroyed after arriving on Dantooine.

[LoneWanderer 103]

On one side, sith troopers will probably have a better chance of defeating and capturing Bastila if they attack her on sight.
On the other side, a single patrol won’t have much chances against a skilled Jedi Knight and her escort anyway. So, it’ll make sense for Sith Superiors to give orders to patrols such as:

a) report about finding Bastila
b) Attempt to persuade her to surrender. For example, to say something like “The planet is occupied. You cannot hide. We will execute civilians in the area if you escape; etc”.
Then if the patrol is wiped, Sith Superiors can dispatch dark Jedi to the location where Bastila was spotted.

From a technical point of view, there are many enemies in the game who first start a conversation when they have clear order to kill player (dark Jedi trio on Tatooine/Kashyyyk, Calo Nord, Darth Bandon, Malak’s apprentices on Star Forge). Therefore, it wouldn’t be out of place if at least one/first patrol that recognize Bastila will start conversation before the attack. Then the player can have a chance to trick patrol in style of ep. 4. Well, this may be beyond your plans, but it may be an interesting idea for the future.

 

On 10/10/2020 at 11:58 AM, Salk said:

what kind of non artificial reason can there be to the impossibility of finding any kind of mask that covers the face, if that is enough to make Bastila unrecognizable on Korriban too?

Why not just assume that there are Sith Masters on Korriban who can recognize (feel, see, smell, idk how it works) Bastila’s unique signature through the Force no matter what clothes she wears? And on Taris the patrols consist of simple soldiers.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman 40]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:01 AM, Ragnarök said:

From an RP standpoint: Yes, since there is no expression for enemies to attempt to capture you in the game, killing on sight is a reasonable action. Moreover, it's clear while Malak preferred to take her alive, he wasn't that concerned about it given he ordered the entire planet destroyed just to remove her as a factor once it became obvious he wouldn't find her.

An easy solution would have been to just have a quest in the game that allowed you to find a disguise for her, but I guess Bioware never thought of it. It's amusing though that for some reason they made a huge deal of her being recognized on Korriban, but not on Taris, despite all of the Sith actively looking for her there. Lol.

As an aside though, it doesn't make sense for any of your Force Sensitive party members to be allowed on Korriban, since Uthar or Yuthura would pick up on their sensitivity immediately and the jig would be up.

And that sensitivity is a giveaway because...? They can't sense when you're full-on holy-glowing Light Side, so obviously you're able to shroud your alignment (and even if they could sense Jolee and Juhani's alignments, Jolee's gray leanings and Juhani's anger issues probably make them register semi-favorably in SithVision(TM)). The sensitivity itself isn't a giveaway because SO ARE ALL THEIR STUDENTS. They're expecting Force-sensitives to show up at their doorstep, and having Force-sensitive "slaves" simply enhances your prestige. The thing about Bastila is that she's not merely sensitive, she's well-known and possesses a rare degree of power with the art of Battle Meditation. She'd probably stand out more to a senior Sith.

...And you know, thinking about it, fear of being recognized probably isn't Bastila's only reason for not wanting to set foot on Korriban.

As for Bastila on Taris... The Sith chain of communication is honestly hilariously spotty in this game. Not only are the Sith grunts on patrol unable to recognize Bastila at a glance, even the Sith Trainee governor doesn't recognize her! Did Darth Malak not actually transmit a visual of her? XD And speaking of the governor, neither Malak nor Saul Karath seems to take notice of his demise. No mention of "We've lost contact with the base" or anything like that, just Malak commenting that the search is taking too long. In any case, if you have the Troopers notice and attack Bastila, the governor not recognizing her is going to stand out even more so you'd probably have to alter that too.

Later on, there's also the fact that (despite the occasional attacks by Sith fighter patrols) the Ebon Hawk doesn't get recognized by those on Korriban as an enemy ship. Not even after the Leviathan incident, although I suppose that much can be excused by Malak being too preoccupied with Bastila.

[Ragnarök 26]

On 1/17/2021 at 9:00 PM, ZeldaTheSwordsman said:

And that sensitivity is a giveaway because...?

Because they are obviously not slaves. I didn't say anything about alignment. The deception was too weak to be believable in all three cases. Were I the Master of a Sith academy I would not consider a person with two Force Sensitive "slaves" as impressive or desirable. I would consider it a threat of potential subterfuge or espionage especially during wartime. There can be only one master in the academy. Having individuals present with ultimate loyalty to a would-be subordinate is foolish. I won't to entertain the "Sith Arrogance" counter-argument either.

As for the Governor not recognizing Bastila, it's part of the same issue so I'd have no problem with them correcting it. Either all of them should, or none of them. The Ebon Hawk is a different matter. We have no idea whether the Sith patrols are just picketing their zones for unmarked craft (pirates) or actively searching for it specifically. Some are random encounters, others were sent specifically to intercept. Depends on the circumstances. Freighters were coming and going from Korriban all the time. Czerka ran the outpost there and the Sith themselves were contracting ships to ferry out artifacts from the valley. 3 out of 4 times it would be fine, unless you make Korriban the final planet. Personally, I've always thought it made the most sense narrative-wise to run into the Leviathan leaving Korriban rather than anywhere else, so I usually make it second to last.

 

[ZeldaTheSwordsman 40]

3 hours ago, Ragnarök said:

Because they are obviously not slaves. I didn't say anything about alignment. The deception was too weak to be believable in all three cases. Were I the Master of a Sith academy I would not consider a person with two Force Sensitive "slaves" as impressive or desirable. I would consider it a threat of potential subterfuge or espionage especially during wartime. There can be only one master in the academy. Having individuals present with ultimate loyalty to a would-be subordinate is foolish. I won't to entertain the "Sith Arrogance" counter-argument either.

1. I inferred that alignment might be a reason you thought the sensitivity was a giveaway.

2. How are they obviously not slaves? What makes the deception weak?

3a. You could consider it a threat, or you could consider it an opportunity for more converts (possibly even seeing these slaves as potential levers against their supposed owner)

3b. Alternate explanation: Revan's own power distracts from Jolee and Juhani, aided by their own abilities at concealment, whereas Bastila's power shines a wee bit too brightly to be hidden thus. And either way, I think fear of temptation is just as much a factor in her wanting to stay aboard as fear of being recognized.

4. K1 Korriban as a whole kinda relies on Sith Arrogance, though - it's how you're able to get away with murder (or for Light Side players, how you're able to get away with lack of murder ).

5. How would you propose setting up separate gatekeeping for who you can bring into the Academy proper vs. who you can bring into the Dreshdae spaceport? That's another thing that occurred to me. Uthar potentially seeing through the deception would only be an obstacle in the Academy itself, whereas Bastila's worry about being recognized applies to both the Academy and the settlement.

 

3 hours ago, Ragnarök said:

The Ebon Hawk is a different matter. We have no idea whether the Sith patrols are just picketing their zones for unmarked craft (pirates) or actively searching for it specifically. Some are random encounters, others were sent specifically to intercept. Depends on the circumstances. Freighters were coming and going from Korriban all the time. Czerka ran the outpost there and the Sith themselves were contracting ships to ferry out artifacts from the valley. 3 out of 4 times it would be fine, unless you make Korriban the final planet. Personally, I've always thought it made the most sense narrative-wise to run into the Leviathan leaving Korriban rather than anywhere else, so I usually make it second to last.

Well, Malak would know from Calo Nord that Bastila escaped aboard the Ebon Hawk, so there's that. And Dreshdae so happens to be the port where the Ebon Hawk is recognized, so there's that too.

Explanation I currently favor is Malak not wanting someone who doesn't directly report to him to deal with Revan and Bastila (last thing he needs is a potential usurper getting their hands on Bastila or Revan stirring up division).

Edited January 19, 2021 by ZeldaTheSwordsman

[Ragnarök 26]

2. Because they're armed. Because broken men behave in particular ways. Simpering, avoiding eye contact with their master. Lack of confidence. No backtalk. No signs of harsh physical abuse that would be required for such strong-willed individuals to be broken. Scars, bruises, burns, sheered fingers. All the little cruelties that would be expected from a Dark Jedi intending to become a Sith. That sort of thing isn't required for non-force sensitives.

3a. Individual interest outweighs collective interest in Sith philosophy. Extra converts are not worth being overthown, and that's not how the recruitment process works in the academy anyway. They only pick one student in the end. I agree there are other reasons for Bastila not wanting to go on Korriban, but they're not the primary reason. In that regard for risk of temptation, Juhani shouldn't be there either.

3b. There is no way to anticipate that ahead of time. There is no justification for the PC to take that risk when infiltration is the goal.

4. Related to point 2. Murder is fine among the Sith, however, each of them is desperately trying not to be murdered. Uthar's goal is to remain master. His secondary goal is to replace Yuthura because she's too ambitious. His third is to train new Sith. Yuthura wants to bring in a hopeful with Force Sensitive slaves? Cool, he can leave them in his locker until school's out.

5. I'd have just confined all three to the ship. There's a risk of high ranking Sith being present in Dreshdae and I'd want as few questions coming my way as possible. One unknown fallen Jedi coming to Korriban is nothing out of the ordinary, three travelling together at once stands out like a sore thumb.

Calo would not have necessarily divulged info of the Ebon Hawk to Malak. He's a famous bounty hunter with a reputation to uphold so he would not want the Sith beating him to the punch. It was also personal matter to him at that point. No one had ever escaped him before. The Ebon Hawk is recognized in Dreshdae only by Czerka employees and smugglers, not the Sith.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman 40]

2. And that kind of abuse is not required for non-Force Sensitive slaves because...? I think you're making an artificial division at this point. Especially if cruelties are as you say so expected of a Sith - you'd think any slave would be abused on principle, no?

3a. First, the Dreshdae academy is kinda a compromise on that issue in the interest of cranking out Sith warriors and plundering the Valley of the Dark Lords. Second, about temptation... The thing about Juhani is that despite her anger issues, she's actually a far more stable and centered Jedi than Bastila is, and she doesn't have Bastila's swollen ego. And thinking about it... she doesn't have a big dirty secret weighing on her mind like Bastila does, either. Also, when I brought up fear of temptation as a reason for Bastila not wanting to go, I was meaning to imply that perhaps that was the deeper reason and she pulls the "I'm recognizable" card to cover for it. ...Although, maybe that's giving too much credit for depth.

3b. Ah-ha, but there is a way to know that people are apparently blind to them before trying to infiltrate the academy (which you don't even know you need to do until walking around town and asking questions): The fact that nobody in Dreshdae picks up on the Force-sensitivity of anybody but the PC.

4. Aaaand I think you're getting sidetracked by my use of the "Get away with murder" metaphor (and the wordplay based on it). Your original point was that you weren't going to buy "Sith Arrogance" as an excuse, my counterargument was that K1 Korriban runs on it. Which is why you can get away with all the crap you pull, Light Side (No proof you killed those students) or Dark (you'd think Uthar would be a bit more diligent about his bedroom security, no?). Which is why nobody, not even Uthar, notices if you're a blazing beacon of the Light side and not fallen at all until you tell them.

5. Not necessarily so, especially given that apparently the academy has had people show up in groups before. And Jolee and Juhani aren't famous faces or the targets of Malak's obsession like Bastila is.

For my money... If Calo Nord was that concerned about not being beaten to the punch, he probably wouldn't have given the detailed info about you and the other party members from Taris at all.

Speaking of said info, something that occurred to me after rediscovering that this was a thing: got to love how apparently nobody of note on Korriban has the detailed description of the PC that the random Dark Jedi assassin trios you encounter do.

...maybe, just maybe, there are some loose threads we shouldn't pull too hard on.

Edited January 28, 2021 by ZeldaTheSwordsman

[Ragnarök 26]

2. Because their wills are inferior. The deception is easier because it's more believable. The chances of them checking over non-Force sensitives is lower because they pose little threat. Moreover, you don't even need to use the excuse of slaves at that point. Ultimately, allowing non-force sensitives into the academy is a compromise I'd be willing to make between realism and the ability to interact with your party on Korriban. Realistically, all of them would be stopped at the door. Allowing Force-Sensitives into the academy as slaves is a bridge too far, but I'd hand-wave the others for the sake of variety.

3b. Again, this is because Bioware didn't think things through and in general, how they design almost every encounter to basically ignore your companions' presences even when they directly interrupt in some cases. They go unaddressed and silent until the game specifically calls for it. It's just another facet of the same problem.

4. There is no light side presence to detect in Star Wars lore because there is no "light side". There's the Force, there's the dark side of it (unnatural corruption brought on by using it selfishly). It's the Force Sensitivity that can be detected in this case or the corruption itself if present, though Sith always claim they can feel the dark side in you, specifically to erode your will. True in some cases, a lie in others. The Light Side points in the game are just a mechanic to give morally good players a bonus for the sake of game balance. In reality, you don't grow angel wings and don a halo by acting as the Force intends you to act.

Sith arrogance is a lazy excuse. It should be relied upon as little as possible. Some situations can be hand-waved with it, others are too unbelievable. Once you're admitted into the academy, suspicion begins slackening and less attention is paid once you start engaging in their world. That is natural and somewhat more reasonable so I can suspend my disbelief.

5. Groups of piers, not slaves and even that is out of the ordinary. It draws undue attention.

Calo needed to if he wanted to be hired to hunt them, which he was. His story had to be believable. Calo also probably didn't understand the significance of the information that he gave in regard to Revan being alive.

The Dark Jedi trios seem to be sent directly from Malak to any world with a Star Map. I'd say you were partly correct when you supposed he didn't want other Sith who are not directly under his thumb interfering. Just not Calo being only a bounty hunter. That's at least a plausible excuse even though we all know Bioware just forgot the obvious again.