Apeiron

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

1 hour ago, Abocreature said:

All that one developer said is that he is "well aware of [IP law not working that way]". This doesn't imply that they're lying about it requiring the base game.

Since there's no financial gain, there's not a huge reason to waste all of this time if they aren't going to do everything they can to try and make sure it stays up.

I will respectfully disagree with this conclusion.

[Abocreature 1]

EDITED: removing unnecessary unpleasantness

Edited August 26, 2018 by Abocreature

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

I think that Snigaroo stated the arguments well enough on the Reddit thread.

[Haveayap 127]

28 minutes ago, Abocreature said:

Glad you feel all high and mighty up there on that pedestal rather than stooping down to the level of naive little ol' me and trying to explain why the points I bring up are invalid. I bet the cloud people are in on this conspiracy to take away our hopes and dreams, too.

IP laws are pretty clear. This is not a mod no matter what people insinuate as it is not a modification of the original game, but a new game that is using material from the old game.

Saying it will need k1 to install is very dubious to say the least. And using this to say its 100% legal is even more dubious when the dev outright states they do it to give people hope.

Other, similar projects have been shut down by lucasfilm/disney in the past 2 years because they considered these projects as competition to their own titles and may have had a chance of taking players away from their own ips. 

 

[Abocreature 1]

5 minutes ago, Haveayap said:

IP laws are pretty clear. This is not a mod no matter what people insinuate as it is not a modification of the original game, but a new game that is using material from the old game.

Saying it will need k1 to install is very dubious to say the least. And using this to say its 100% is even more dubious when the dev outright states they do it to give people hope.

Other, similar projects have been shut down by lucasfilm/disney in the past 2 years because they considered these projects as competition to their own titles and may have had a chance of taking players away from their own ips. 

 

I don't know how they're planning to implement this, so I don't know whether or not it's dubious to think it'll require the base game. I just know that they have every reason to be motivated to make it that way. And I still don't see the problem with giving people hope about this not being shut down if we're not being cheated out of anything. I don't see what this project would be in competition to since there isn't anything similar coming out in the foreseeable future.

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

1 minute ago, Abocreature said:

I don't know how they're planning to implement this, so I don't know whether or not it's dubious to think it'll require the base game. I just know that they have every reason to be motivated to make it that way. And I still don't see the problem with giving people hope about this not being shut down if we're not being cheated out of anything. I don't see what this project would be in competition to since there isn't anything similar coming out in the foreseeable future.

You're a fan of this.  I get this.  I really do.  As you've seen this argument about using the game to unlock the "not-a-mod" come up again and again, don't you think - as a fan - that they should be more forthcoming about how that might be implemented?  I personally don't see how they'll be able to do it.  How will they make it so KOTOR legal copies activate this "not a mod" and prevent cracked versions from also doing so?  If you have faith in these developers, it seems like that's a question you or others should be asking.  I have no skin in this game and you have more to lose.  If you're active in their bases of operation, perhaps you'll get a concrete answer.  I hope you do get a satisfactory answer!  Until they're more transparent however, I remain skeptical.  

[Abocreature 1]

1 minute ago, Sith Holocron said:

You're a fan of this.  I get this.  I really do.  As you've seen this argument about using the game to unlock the "not-a-mod" come up again and again, don't you think - as a fan - that they should be more forthcoming about how that might be implemented?  I personally don't see how they'll be able to do it.  How will they make it so KOTOR legal copies activate this "not a mod" and prevent cracked versions from also doing so?  If you have faith in these developers, it seems like that's a question you or others should be asking.  I have no skin in this game and you have more to lose.  If you're active in their bases of operation, perhaps you'll get a concrete answer.  I hope you do get a satisfactory answer!  Until they're more transparent however, I remain skeptical.  

That's fair to be skeptical. I'll try asking next time someone streams if they're even at the point where they've planned out how the implementation will function. My point is: 1. I don't see what I'd be particularly losing by hoping they succeed and 2. I don't see what they  have to gain by maliciously lying about whether it's even possible to implement it in this way. As a result, I think kicking up a fuss on their streams and in their fan forums about them lying to us is causing more harm than good.

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

5 minutes ago, Abocreature said:

That's fair to be skeptical. I'll try asking next time someone streams if they're even at the point where they've planned out how the implementation will function. My point is: 1. I don't see what I'd be particularly losing by hoping they succeed and 2. I don't see what they  have to gain by maliciously lying about whether it's even possible to implement it in this way. As a result, I think kicking up a fuss on their streams and in their fan forums about them lying to us is causing more harm than good.

Remember, I have to nothing to gain from this so I'm not going to do research on a "not-a-mod" that I'm not going to play.  However, as you are actively interested in this, you have more to lose.  Hey, if this thing gets made -  the whole thing - and it doesn't get C and D'd to oblivion, good for you!  In the mean time, it would help your argument to have something specific to point on how exactly the legal issues will be addressed.  Jumping into these threads can't be terribly fun for you without some sort of back up.  (The kind of back up that should be clearly on their FAQ page.)

BTW - to other folks perusing this post: Is Apeiron's FAQ page still littered with multiple spelling and grammar issues?  Mildly curious but not enough to head over to their site.

[Abocreature 1]

2 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

Remember, I have to nothing to gain from this so I'm not going to do research on a "not-a-mod" that I'm not going to play.  However, as you are actively interested in this, you have more to lose.  Hey, if this thing gets made -  the whole thing - and it doesn't get C and D'd to oblivion, good for you!  In the mean time, it would help your argument to have something specific to point on how exactly the legal issues will be addressed.  Jumping into these threads can't be terribly fun for you without some sort of back up.  (The kind of back up that should be clearly on their FAQ page.)

BTW - to other folks perusing this post: Is Apeiron's FAQ page still littered with multiple spelling and grammar issues?  Mildly curious but not enough to head over to their site.

Hey man, I concede that this probably doesn't fit the legal definition of the mod. I said IP law is dubious because it's enforcement is entirely up the holder and it's strength can be... flexible depending on the money involved, even if something legally would fit that definition. I don't have a lot of experience with UE4, and I think if they can implement it in the way they plan, there's no real reason for EA/LucasArts/Disney/whoever the hell is in charge of this IP by now to C and D this since there's no new release to compete and it requires a purchase of the base game to play. (Piracy is still piracy and will happen regardless of this, and I don't really think this would increase or decrease the percentage, just the raw numbers). And regardless of all of that, I don't think this is a malicious action on their part.

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

You see where I am coming from, right? 

[Abocreature 1]

1 minute ago, Sith Holocron said:

You see where I am coming from, right? 

Of course I do. I understand being cautious and skeptical of the success of these mods since both Disney and EA are involved. Honestly, I mainly disagree with how Winter up there was sort of harassing the fanbase about this one quote from one of the devs taken from the general discord chat that already has a very laid back atmosphere. Even if it does get C and D'd, I personally have gained a lot from the streams of the development and I'm betting plenty of other people have too. Me and many others have already gained something from this project, whether it sees the light of day or not.

[Haveayap 127]

9 minutes ago, Abocreature said:

Of course I do. I understand being cautious and skeptical of the success of these mods since both Disney and EA are involved. Honestly, I mainly disagree with how Winter up there was sort of harassing the fanbase about this one quote from one of the devs taken from the general discord chat that already has a very laid back atmosphere. Even if it does get C and D'd, I personally have gained a lot from the streams of the development and I'm betting plenty of other people have too. Me and many others have already gained something from this project, whether it sees the light of day or not.

The other big issue i see if a C&D is given is that instead of the fanbase blaming the devs for lying, they will rant on about how it was done illegally by EA/Lucasfilm/Disney

[Abocreature 1]

Just now, Haveayap said:

The other big issue i see if a C&D is given is that instead of the fanbase blaming the devs for lying, they will rant on about how it was done illegally by EA/Lucasfilm/Disney

I understand that concern, although I personally have more usually experienced people complaining that the holder was being dumb rather than that they did something actually illegal.

[Haveayap 127]

1 minute ago, Abocreature said:

I understand that concern, although I personally have more usually experienced people complaining that the holder was being dumb rather than that they did something actually illegal.

I mean apeiron anounced the project and only gave us some concept art. 2 years on and all we have seen is some of the environments in a semi completed state.

[Abocreature 1]

1 minute ago, Haveayap said:

I mean apeiron anounced the project and only gave us some concept art. 2 years on and all we have seen is some of the environments in a semi completed state.

I mean... it takes a while for 9 people to make this much. There are at least three of them that regularly stream, so it's not like they aren't doing anything at all. They don't make money from this and all have day jobs, remember.

[Vriff 21]

There is one case of this actually being okay'd, albeit not by Disney/LucasArts/Bioware/Obsidian but by Bethesda. I doubt the former mentioned parties will see it the way that Bethesda does considering none of those companies have ever supported modding, but there's that. Either way, I think anyone with half a brain knew that they can send a C&D out at any moment so I'm not sure what the surprise that the developers of Apeiron acknowledge that. In the end, who cares? Really? At this point this is a dead horse getting beat. The developers obviously do not care what any of us think.

[Minimpoun 5]

On 8/26/2018 at 1:14 AM, Sith Holocron said:

You're a fan of this.  I get this.  I really do.  As you've seen this argument about using the game to unlock the "not-a-mod" come up again and again, don't you think - as a fan - that they should be more forthcoming about how that might be implemented?  I personally don't see how they'll be able to do it.  How will they make it so KOTOR legal copies activate this "not a mod" and prevent cracked versions from also doing so?  If you have faith in these developers, it seems like that's a question you or others should be asking.  I have no skin in this game and you have more to lose.  If you're active in their bases of operation, perhaps you'll get a concrete answer.  I hope you do get a satisfactory answer!  Until they're more transparent however, I remain skeptical.  

This is the first time since joining the project I've seen someone ask how we're going to implement the installer. As the person who actually wrote the installer, I can answer this. When you download the game from our website, it'll prompt you to specify the install location of the original (the folder container the .exe), once you do this it will look for a folder called "data", then it will load the "sounds.bif" file--similar to the way the KOTOR tool loads the .bif files. Once the file has been loaded, Apeiron will install into the directory you choose. Once the game is installed, it will then copy all the .wav files from the sounds.bif file and paste them into the /Content/Audio/ folder. Then you can just double click on the Apeiron icon and it'll open the game, the first time you launch Apeiron you will see a loading bar with the words "parsing audio". This is because the files are directly copied as .wav files, however the game needs them as .uassets, so we have to import them at run time. This will only happen once.

As far as "How will they make it so KOTOR legal copies activate this "not a mod" and prevent cracked versions from also doing so?". There is nothing we can do about this, I've never cracked the game so I have no clue if there is anyway to tell if the game is legit. We've thought about checking to see if there are folders prefixed with "steam" (because the steam version adds folders with "steam" in their name), but we decided against it as we want to be able to support GOG and Disk versions of the game. There is no way for us to stop someone from pirating KOTOR then installing our mod.

[Minimpoun 5]

On 8/26/2018 at 1:56 AM, Haveayap said:

I mean apeiron anounced the project and only gave us some concept art. 2 years on and all we have seen is some of the environments in a semi completed state.

We have a lot we've not shown, and this is intentional. We are trying not to draw too much attention to ourselves, and we also want somethings to still be a surprise when the game comes out.

[Minimpoun 5]

On 8/25/2018 at 8:30 PM, Malkior said:

Well.. Wow!  They don't have a legal leg to stand on and yet they don't seem to care. Now I'm just concerned about what the fallout will be once they get caught and/or punished.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Youtube's gaming news channels are at this moment gearing up to "expose" them using that Reddit thread as evidence.

What is there to "expose" exactlly? "Big bad people are making a star wars game because they think it's fun! Burn the heretics!!"

We have no goals to gain anything from this project other than self-enjoyment. If Disney wants to shut us down, they have all the power to do so. We do not claim to be immune, our fanbase often times will say "Oh, this is a mod. Disney can't shut it down.". We all know this isn't true, if we get shut down, it'll be sad but there's nothing we can do about it. 

This isn't some conspiracy theory, it's a bunch of Star Wars nerds that are game devs by profession making a Star Wars game because they enjoy it. Whoopty fuckin doo, you exposed us. Good job.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Minimpoun
wording

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

1 hour ago, Minimpoun said:

We have no goals to gain anything from this project other than self-enjoyment. If Disney wants to shut us down, they have all the power to do so. We do not claim to be immune, our fanbase often times will say "Oh, this is a mod. Disney can't shut it down.". We all know this isn't true, if we get shut down, it'll be sad but there's nothing we can do about it. 

Why was this ever on the site if you didn't claim to be immune from the Disney folks? Seems a little dishonest tbh

[Minimpoun 5]

Just now, VarsityPuppet said:

Why was this ever on the site if you didn't claim to be immune from the Disney folks? Seems a little dishonest tbh

Cause I didn't make the site, and because the site hasn't been updated in over a year afaik. We've talked about updating it and putting more accurate information on it, but that takes time. And none of us get paid to work on this project.

[zbyl2 811]

38 minutes ago, Minimpoun said:

Cause I didn't make the site, and because the site hasn't been updated in over a year afaik. We've talked about updating it and putting more accurate information on it, but that takes time. And none of us get paid to work on this project.

 

Oh hi, are you an actual Apeiron developer?

 

Would you mind speaking some more on what your development process is like? It seems from your updates like you've modeled out a lot of levels without getting basic gameplay in place first, which seems weird. Unless I'm mistaken?

On that note, can you talk about what your team size is and what kind of people you got working on the game? No idea if it's on your website or anywhere, I haven't followed the project very closely. I know you've got at least some talented Unreal level designers, do you have any full time developer doing actual programming on the project as well?

[Minimpoun 5]

24 minutes ago, zbyl2 said:

 

Oh hi, are you an actual Apeiron developer?

 

Would you mind speaking some more on what your development process is like? It seems from your updates like you've modeled out a lot of levels without getting basic gameplay in place first, which seems weird. Unless I'm mistaken?

On that note, can you talk about what your team size is and what kind of people you got working on the game? No idea if it's on your website or anywhere, I haven't followed the project very closely. I know you've got at least some talented Unreal level designers, do you have any full time developer doing actual programming on the project as well?

Yeah, I'm the Lead Programmer on the project.

Quote

"It seems from your updates like you've modeled out a lot of levels without getting basic gameplay in place first"

 Heh, yeah I can see why you'd think that. I work full-time at a different studio creating games for a living, I have little time to write code for Apeiron, which is one of the reasons we don't show gameplay often. I have been prototyping our new swoop racing mechanics though, can be found here. The base movement mechanics are done as well as some other gameplay features. Lately, I've been working on recreating the UI and inventory system. Here is a snippet from the inventory design document to give you an idea as to what it'll look like.

Truth be told, I'd post a lot more gameplay related stuff; however a lot of the cool things about gameplay mechanics are hidden in the implementation and are often not cool to the average viewer. People prefer to see art assets than a editor extension I wrote to make renaming assets easier for designers lmao

Quote

"On that note, can you talk about what your team size is and what kind of people you got working on the game? No idea if it's on your website or anywhere..."

I honestly don't even remember what is on the website. 
The team size at the time of writing is 9 heads. As far as what kind of people are on the team: professionals. Taylor (the game director) is very strict about who he lets on the team, everyone working on Apeiron are either industry professionals or are extremely talented students that are looking to go into the game dev profession.

Quote

"do you have any full time developer doing actual programming on the project as well?"

There is currently only two programmers on the team, and the second doesn't do much because he recently had a kid. I do as much as I can; however no one on the team works on Apeiron full-time. We all do this as a passion project in our free time. 

With that said, that doesn't mean we treat this like a mod. We all take this very seriously as if it was our full-time job. The way this team is run isn't much different than my day job, we take it seriously, but at the same time everyone knows we're just doing it for fun.

 

Taylor often posts updates about the project on his Twitter, and I will post things on mine every now and then.

[Malkior 476]

3 hours ago, Minimpoun said:

What is there to "expose" exactlly? "Big bad people are making a star wars game because they think it's fun! Burn the heretics!!"

We have no goals to gain anything from this project other than self-enjoyment. If Disney wants to shut us down, they have all the power to do so. We do not claim to be immune, our fanbase often times will say "Oh, this is a mod. Disney can't shut it down.". We all know this isn't true, if we get shut down, it'll be sad but there's nothing we can do about it. 

This isn't some conspiracy theory, it's a bunch of Star Wars nerds that are game devs by profession making a Star Wars game because they enjoy it. Whoopty fuckin doo, you exposed us. Good job.

 

Creating a website and advertising the heck out of your project as you have is hardly in the interest of "self" enjoyment.

Achieving popularity is a strong focus for many people's projects, and it's even possible that you have the more altruistic intention of providing the Star Wars community with something they can enjoy.

However, don't start pretending that your only interest is your own personal enjoyment, since that can be achieved by keeping your project to yourself and closest friends. 

 

What concerns me is your blatant disregard for the fact that you're remaking an entire Star Wars game in another engine and still believe it's a Mod..

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

4 hours ago, Minimpoun said:

As far as "How will they make it so KOTOR legal copies activate this "not a mod" and prevent cracked versions from also doing so?". There is nothing we can do about this, I've never cracked the game so I have no clue if there is anyway to tell if the game is legit. We've thought about checking to see if there are folders prefixed with "steam" (because the steam version adds folders with "steam" in their name), but we decided against it as we want to be able to support GOG and Disk versions of the game. There is no way for us to stop someone from pirating KOTOR then installing our mod.

I think that'll be one of the main vectors that Disney could use against you.  Sounds like an issue that could prove problematic at best.

2 hours ago, Minimpoun said:

Cause I didn't make the site, and because the site hasn't been updated in over a year afaik. We've talked about updating it and putting more accurate information on it, but that takes time. And none of us get paid to work on this project.

If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.  At least have one of your less busy folks edit the posts for honesty and spelling/grammar issues.  Your FAQ page is as important as everything else you've presented.

Good luck!