TSLRCM's take on Bao-Dur's endgame fate?

[l2daorch 19]

I think this is just part of a bigger issue. The ending is still pretty bad, even with everything that TSLRCM did. Even with some of the additional mods out there. As people said in this thread, there simply isn't enough in the game files to really piece together the ending, especially given that I feel like Obsidian themselves don't really know what it would have been with more time.

I think we really need some sort of Endgame Restoration/Enhancement Mod that really puts together the endgame. It would require a lot of making stuff up and probably a good amount of voice over splicing, but I think K2 deserves to be completed at some point.

[Lawkmt3 17]

I know Obsidian was rushed. I get that put a damper on a lot of elements of the game. Frankly, while M4-78  is nice to have, it isn't a vital story enhancing planet. My huge, haulking, propblem with Mr. A is strictly from a writing persepctive... He had too many ideas! Did we really need GOTO? IMO, no. He adds almost nothing to the story other than sheer novelty. Mical... Don't get me started... Hanharr? Never played DS but in LS his story with Mira is pathetic. Mr. A could have and should have streamlined his narrative. If he stuck to a basic, "Exile comes home to save the Galaxy from planet eating Sith and re-establishes Jedi Order" he could have fleshed out the GEMS he had! Visas, Handmaiden, Atton, Mira, Kreia, Bao-Dur, Canderous... Were amazing Characters! Mira's past as a Mandalorian alone would have been more relevant to the events in-game than Hanharr was. If Mr. A had crafted a complete story BEFORE the game was made it would have served much better. Instead it was a case of, "Oooh, let's kill the Force, but we need a Droid Planet, but Atris is the Baddie, Telos is the most important planet, no Kreia is the Baddie, Malachore V is where it counts. What? no time for a Droid Planet?" A deadline should have very little impact in writing the STORY for a game! I think it's telling when in-game you can tell the Jedi Council that their theory makes no sense! Because of poor plot development the game suffers.

[bead-v 251]

I think this is just part of a bigger issue. The ending is still pretty bad, even with everything that TSLRCM did. Even with some of the additional mods out there. As people said in this thread, there simply isn't enough in the game files to really piece together the ending, especially given that I feel like Obsidian themselves don't really know what it would have been with more time.

I think we really need some sort of Endgame Restoration/Enhancement Mod that really puts together the endgame. It would require a lot of making stuff up and probably a good amount of voice over splicing, but I think K2 deserves to be completed at some point.

 

My thoughts exactly! Problem is, that would be a HUGE amount of work on all levels (designing, scripting, modeling, retexturing, VO, ...) and it would take a lot of talent, dedication and time. And you'd need a team of people who all have those qualities/commodities and are also efficient in working as a team.

[zbyl2 811]

It's so weird to see someone refer to MCA as "Mr A".

 

Funnily enough he'd agree with a lot of your comments, especially when it comes to having too many companions. You're completely wrong when you say that development schedule shouldn't impact the story. Of course it should, you could easily implement all that content if you had two more months, and you could flesh them out even more if you had another few weeks. And crapping on M4-78 in these kinds of rants is kinda pointless because we really don't know what was planned for that planet or how it was supposed to fit with the rest of the game. People don't seem to realize how little of M4-78's plot was left and how much of my mod is purely made up.

 

And Goto is a really cool character, there's just no incentive to talk to him to actually find out about it lol. He's also pretty useful in combat in droid heavy areas.

[l2daorch 19]

My thoughts exactly! Problem is, that would be a HUGE amount of work on all levels (designing, scripting, modeling, retexturing, VO, ...) and it would take a lot of talent, dedication and time. And you'd need a team of people who all have those qualities/commodities and are also efficient in working as a team.

 

Oh definitely. It's probably a bigger task than the restored content, and that took long enough (though I guess without team gizka it would have been finished a lot sooner). I'm just saying that we already got this far, I mean the game is almost completely different from the original Xbox version, and fixing the endgame is the next big step for the game. After that all that'd be left would be to fix the influence system and probably some of the minor stuff that wasn't restored due to having too few game files to do it properly.  

Maybe it's time to get a team together and start planning! I'm sure plenty of people would love to help out in whichever way they can.

[Lawkmt3 17]

I can't spell his last name. What I meant by deadlines not interfering with story I meant writing the plot, and the characters. Not building the game itself. Mr. A. had a great theme, sound characterization, and great conflict, but he didn't WRITE the story properly. I'm a writer, it's what I do, so my issues have nothing to do with the "game" part. (I also wasn't putting down m4-78) a good writer usally knows two things, from the start... 1. What they want to say 2. How the story will end. In this case, Mr. MCA had something to say, and amazing characters to say it, however, he utterly and completely failed to make it matter to the player. In the end nothing happens! Kreia wants to cause the death of the Force without killing the Galaxy, he never explained how that may be possible. You are supposed to be a Zombie untouched by the Force, yet you weild it. Again not possible in the SW's mythos. You can be blocked, but never without it. He didn't make that clear. Characters like Bao-Dur, who do nothing after training them to be Jedi, when they should be moving along with the character. These are mistakes by an author, not "game" mistakes. 

[Cirosan 12]

Alright, there's certainly a surplus of ideas of how to fix these issues, but I suppose I'll throw my two cents in - a way to provide some closure for some of the bigger holes that doesn't require the world (new modules, re-spliced lines, etc.).

 

There's already a quest during the Attack on Telos where the TSF facility is a cross-station for fuel. Expand on that - show that Bao-Dur rushed off to protect that. Sometime around the Exile touching down on Citadel Station, switch to a solo section with Bao-Dur. Start it right outside the TSF station. Inside are a contingent of Sith that he has to take down. The computer terminal that's there - the one the protocol droid normally stands behind - re-label that something like "Fuel Management". Bao-Dur interacts with it and starts to fix the problem, but more Sith keep coming in. This happens two or three times, with a  computerized voice (community voice-acted) announcing the station is critical in a bark box.

 

As he rushes between fighting and working at the computer, pseudo-dialogue prompts appear on the computer that hint at his motives: as in "Reroute the fuel to save Telos.' if he's LS; "Reroute the fuel to finish what you started." if he's DS. As a result of all the fighting, explosions start to consume the TSF station as Bao-Dur is finishing his work - he pauses, looks at the exit, his last chance to leave, but then goes back to working at the computer. Warnings that the station is critical are still blaring. Bao-Dur is severely wounded by everything - if he wants to save Telos, he has to go down with the ship. He continues working but finally slumps, and falls - just as the computerized voice says the station has stabilized.

 

If the Exile does the fuel TSF quest, they find the dying Bao-Dur long after the fact, still slumped behind the computer in the TSF station, now marked by carbon scoring and Sith corpses. The Exile arranges for Bao-Dur to be taken to the Ebon Hawk's Med Bay and goes to board the Ravager. In this case, the PC will reunite with Bao-Dur in the Med Bay of the Ebon Hawk after defeating Nihilus and speaking to Carth.

 

If the Exile doesn't find Bao-Dur, he is found by Grenn and some TSF officers after the Exile has boarded the Ravager. In that case, after meeting Carth, Grenn intercepts them on their way out. PC can ask "What is it?" but Grenn simply shakes his head silently (no VO required) - immediately followed by a cut to Bao-Dur in the Med Bay of the Ebon Hawk, same as above.

 

In the Med Bay, Atton is making a token attempt to heal Bao-Dur, maybe tries a Force power if he's a Jedi - but it's no good. Atton leaves, shakes his head, frustrated. PC finally approaches Bao-Dur in the Med Bay - it's clear he's dying and nothing can be done. They can say goodbye in any manner of ways for RP's sake. As he dies, Bao-Dur's telepathic VO from TSLRCM plays that leads across the ship and finally to the loading ramp, giving it context.

 

 

The other fixed problem: The Ebon Hawk falls into Malachor and then flies back out

 

This one's an easy fix if the above's already in place. Play the video of the Ebon Hawk falling into Malachor. Cut to a solo section as T3: Bookending the game, T3, who was left on board, is the only one who can fix the ship and get it out. Re-use the damaged Ebon Hawk module from the prologue. The problem: There are no parts to fix the hyperdrive. Anywhere. T3 can search the ship and express frustration, but the party must've taken everything of use - there's just not enough to fix the ship. Eventually, the player - and T3 - finally realize the horrible solution: the dead Bao-Dur still lies in the Med Bay, and salvaging parts from his mechanical arm will be enough to save the ship. T3 is reluctant, a little disgusted - his retractable arm hesitates before he finally goes through with it. Hyperdrive fixed, play the movie of the Ebon Hawk flying out of Malachor's depths. Has the added benefit of giving Bao-Dur's death an extra layer of meaning: in life he saved Telos, in death he saved the party. "Make my sacrifice matter," indeed.

 

If T3's section runs a little short, I suppose you could always pad it out with some manner of puzzle T3 has to solve on the Ebon Hawk's computers, but that might throw off the pacing of the sequence.

 

 

Alright, so... my solution may not require brand-new modules or getting spliced lines or anything, but it would still be an enormous amount of work to implement. Finally, everything I've just said is essentially my best guess for what could have happened, given what we know - it's all speculation, fanfiction for all intents and purposes, and it lacks any legitimacy. For those who want to restore what the devs meant, this is definitely not the way to go. But it's my two cents, and I figured I'd offer it. If it helps, great. If it sucks, sorry to have wasted your time. Hopefully, though. we'll eventually get some closure for the endgame.

 

 

[JCarter426 1,214]

I'm pretty sure Avellone was refering to pcdead2

 

I'm not sure he was... what he describes sounds like that dialogue in part, but it also sounded like the context was different.

 

Also considering how broken and inconsistent the content is after the enclave, I don't think they had time to think about revealing malachor consistently in several different ways. But that's just my thinking

 

Well, sure, they didn't have time to do it consistently. As you say there are contradictions all over the place. However, what makes me suspect there was at least some sort of plan amidst this madness is that there are several lines towards the end of the game with alternate takes - a pair with one line mentioning Malachor, and then the alternate that does not. For example, I remember one of Zez-Kai Ell's - "For you, the Mandalorian Wars was that crucible." / "For you, Malachor was that crucible." And Atris also has two scenes with the Sith holocrons, one with her saying she didn't tell the Exile about Malachor and then another with those lines cut, if she did. Stuff like that. Add to that I know there was another way to learn about Malachor that was cut - T3 unlocking the navicomputer - so it seems like a pattern to me. But we'll likely never know.

 

Mr. A. had a great theme, sound characterization, and great conflict, but he didn't WRITE the story properly. I'm a writer, it's what I do, so my issues have nothing to do with the "game" part. (I also wasn't putting down m4-78) a good writer usally knows two things, from the start... 1. What they want to say 2. How the story will end. In this case, Mr. MCA had something to say, and amazing characters to say it, however, he utterly and completely failed to make it matter to the player. In the end nothing happens! Kreia wants to cause the death of the Force without killing the Galaxy, he never explained how that may be possible. You are supposed to be a Zombie untouched by the Force, yet you weild it. Again not possible in the SW's mythos. You can be blocked, but never without it. He didn't make that clear. Characters like Bao-Dur, who do nothing after training them to be Jedi, when they should be moving along with the character. These are mistakes by an author, not "game" mistakes. 

I don't understand - what makes you so sure that Chris Avellone didn't know how the game was going to end? Just because the content is missing in the game files does not there was never one written. The story was there. It just wasn't finished. I wouldn't criticize the writing of a novel for failing to explain or conclude things if I knew the last five chapters were missing.

 

You could argue that the ending had a higher priority and all that should've been completed before work was done on M4-78, the swoop racing, and so on. And Avellone has admitted to that as well. The game suffered due a combination of the rushed schedule and less than stellar planning. But I don't see how you would conclude that's a problem with the writing.

 

And of course complicating the matter is that nothing is really directly explained, instead left open to your interpretation. But that's a matter of preference so I don't see any point in debating that particular issue. So instead, I'll address some of your complaints with my own interpretation.

 

Kreia wants to cause the death of the Force without killing the Galaxy, he never explained how that may be possible.

The destruction of Malachor created an echo, a sort of scream in the Force that was too painful for the Exile to bear, so he/she severed his/her own connection to the Force. Kreia wants to force that choice upon the entire galaxy. She would do this by creating another, even greater echo. I believe the destruction of Telos would have done the job, given how it is supposedly connected to everything in the game. But of course the Exile saves Telos, so this is averted. I also believe Kreia never intended for her plan to succeed - or to be more precise, her true plan was for the Exile to defeat her and become stronger for it.

 

You are supposed to be a Zombie untouched by the Force, yet you weild it. Again not possible in the SW's mythos.

The Exile has lost his/her own personal connection to the Force, but is still able to use the Force of others through bonds. Kind of like a computer with a wireless receiver.

 

Again not possible in the SW's mythos. You can be blocked, but never without it. He didn't make that clear.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. The very premise of the story is that you can be cut off from the Force, and it's an idea that does not originate with Knights of the Old Republic II. But the game also makes it clear that the Exile is a very unusual case, regardless.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I mean the game is almost completely different from the original Xbox version, and fixing the endgame is the next big step for the game.

Are we using the same mod? TSLRCM restores many things but saying that it makes the game "almost completely different" is an exaggeration.

 

 

I get the idea of trying to patch up the end-game as much as possible, but it'd be a real stretch to be able to fill in all those gaps with useful content.

 

A better idea would be to cut most of the Malachor end-game content and move it all to Telos instead. Idk, I've kind of just accepted it can't really be finished. I'm onto other projects

[bead-v 251]

A better idea would be to cut most of the Malachor end-game content and move it all to Telos instead. Idk, I've kind of just accepted it can't really be finished. I'm onto other projects

 

I don't think that would improve much over the current situation.. I choose to remain optimistic Maybe someday...

[JCarter426 1,214]

I'm with bead-v. I think a proper Malachor ending can be accomplished, but it requires some liberal thinking that isn't befitting the ethos of a pure restoration mod like TSLRCM or TSLRP before it - the "restore only what can be restored" philosophy. We need more restored than can be restored, and even in some cases I think a bit of cutting or moving might be in order. Essentially, one would have to be willing to look at the game and admit what is there does not work, and change it, without caring about how things could have been or should have been, what this bit of content implies, or what a developer said in an interview - without caring about anything except what will make the game work according to their personal vision. Frankly, we will never know how the game should have ended, and the best we're going to get is someone's personal vision.

 

And then inevitably a lot of people will disagree with that vision. But I for one would respect the effort regardless.

[Kexikus 995]

I agree with JCarter on that one.

 

There's definitely potential to be found in the vanilla/TSLRCM ending sequence, but it's overshadowed by plot holes and boring game play. However, I think that it's possible to take what's there and both rearrange it and add to it while keeping to what's established in the rest of the game. This could include a proper conclusion to Bao Dur's story as well as better endings to the Malachor/Kreia plot. But just from the many many different outcomes alone this would be a tremendous task, not to mention making all of this work in the game (in a technical quality that matches vanilla).

 

If done properly this would pretty much be the one mod I wish TSL would get.

[Lawkmt3 17]

As a writer it is the author's job to tell the story he intends to tell. If he had planned the story properly maybe he would have been able to see which ideas were worthwhile and what to cut. Nar Shaada itself is HUGE, and while it's great helping all those people. You could cut it in half still have the impact and move the plot forward! As for Bao-Dur, training him with the TSLRCM is now my favorite part of the game. I still say he can't die.

[Domino5555 119]

Alright, there's certainly a surplus of ideas of how to fix these issues, but I suppose I'll throw my two cents in - a way to provide some closure for some of the bigger holes that doesn't require the world (new modules, re-spliced lines, etc.).

 

<A lot of nice ideas>

 

Alright, so... my solution may not require brand-new modules or getting spliced lines or anything, but it would still be an enormous amount of work to implement. Finally, everything I've just said is essentially my best guess for what could have happened, given what we know - it's all speculation, fanfiction for all intents and purposes, and it lacks any legitimacy. For those who want to restore what the devs meant, this is definitely not the way to go. But it's my two cents, and I figured I'd offer it. If it helps, great. If it sucks, sorry to have wasted your time. Hopefully, though. we'll eventually get some closure for the endgame.

Get this guy a medal. He has just figured out a satisfying way to solve Bao-Dur's fate. Oh, and also someone should start working on a mod based on his ideas.

[Guest]

I agree with JCarter on that one.

 

There's definetly potential to be found in the vanilla/TSLRCM ending sequence, but it's overshadowed by plot holes and boring gameplay. However, I think that it's possible to take what's there and both rearrange it and add to it while keeping to what's established in the rest of the game. This could include a proper conclusion to Bao Dur's story as well as better endings to the Malachor/Kreia plot. But just from the many many different outcomes alone this would be a tremendous task, not to mention making all of this work in the game (in a technical quality that matches vanilla).

 

If done properly this would pretty much be the one mod I wish TSL would get.

 

 

So- we're all in agreement we want something along these lines? 

[JCarter426 1,214]

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to do something about it yet.

 

I already have too many projects...

[zbyl2 811]

Well there was one mod aiming to do something similar, y'know. Little project. Malachor VI, they called it.

[JCarter426 1,214]

Every time Varsity Puppet uploads a video I have to resist the urge to say "GIVE ME YOUR FILES AND I WILL FINISH IT FOR YOU."

[zbyl2 811]

Well, why don't you just follow the dark side and GIVE IN TO YOUR URGES.

[Guest]

Every time Varsity Puppet uploads a video I have to resist the urge to say "GIVE ME YOUR FILES AND I WILL FINISH IT FOR YOU."

 

Please do!

[Kexikus 995]

Every time Varsity Puppet uploads a video I have to resist the urge to say "GIVE ME YOUR FILES AND I WILL FINISH IT FOR YOU."

 

VP already uploaded the files. The link is somewhere in the MVI thread So go ahead and finish it

[JCarter426 1,214]

No, no, I'm still resisting the urge. And even if I weren't I'd like to see it with his commentary first anyway, rather than try to guess at what it was supposed to be from half-finished files. Already have too much of that problem going around.

[zbyl2 811]

To be honest I had the same urge for a minute when watching all the footage with VP few months ago but I quickly realized how much time it would take and never seriously considered it.

 

I wish someone finished it though. But it needs bead-v and his camera animations.

[Sith Holocron 2,478]

Haven't we veered away from the original topic a bit?

[JCarter426 1,214]

Nah, I think we've answered the question. TSLRCM's take on Bao-Dur's fate is that it's Varsity Puppet's problem.