[TSL] So I finally finished it.. (SPOILER WARNING)

[Salk 363]

...and it is not possible to not ask oneself: how does the sequel compare to the original?

Both games have one big common problem, way more acute in TSL: the last part becomes an horribly boring, endless series of combat sequences against waves and waves of enemies. While this apply only to the Star Forge and it is thus rather limited in KotOR, the issue covers a way bigger portion of the game in TSL: it practically starts with the return to Onderon and lasts until the end of the game (before then, Nar Shaddaa gave an unfortunate taste of what was to come...).

 

This is the main factor, but not the only one, that makes me favor the original game. Said that, TSL has a more interesting and deeper plot, making me feel I was really involved in politics and intrigue. And this thanks mainly to the great character of Kreia, by far the best thing in TSL. Her alone, thanks also to the magnificent job done by Sara Kestleman that truly brings her to life, is reason enough to want to play this game. The other characters, with the exception of my KotOR favorite HK-47 and, to a certain extent, the handmaiden, were rather bland and uninspired though.

 

I was not fond of the "create your own item" thing either, while I did appreciate the dialogue options choices available for high abilities or skills. I didn't like much the half-baked idea of turning some of your party into jedis. It felt like something that was forced onto the player and did not really go down smoothly enough. On the positive side instead, the small different improvements to skill and abilities that come from the interaction with the party NPCs.

 

The ending in TSL has also left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. My favorite character dies a villain (?) and all the promises and expectations built upon her vanish and what mulled over my head for quite some time after the credits have gone was: "What was this all about?". The plot is rather captivating and promising but in the end it does not really deliver satisfactory answers, nor does it feel that it's been an organic experience from beginning to end. The "villains" in the game were way more interesting before you ever got to face them, which is not an uncommon problem in cinematographic productions as well. Once the veil is pulled, there is not much... Kudos for having created the right atmosphere for a very good part of the game (I would say two thirds of it).

 

I understand Obsidian wanted to introduce new things in the game to improve over the original but in the end that operation was mostly unsuccessful when it comes to gameplay. The possibility of choosing and learning new Lightsaber forms was a good idea but in the end I never really bothered much playing with it because it felt it was not worth moving away from the initial Force Channel until you learn Moderation, which became the new favorite.

 

Also there is a slew of new items, weapons and armors... But how many of these were really of any interest and use? In my game, I found what became the best protection (armor) for my character very early and I stuck to it until the end because it was the best choice (Jal Shey Advisor Armor with maxed upgrades) allowing unrestricted use of Force Powers.

 

Obsidian decided to have a much less blunt approach to romance in the sequel. I played as female Exile and there was only hints of a romantic interest with either Atton or the awfully dull Disciple so that when the end arrives and Kreia speaks about my destiny being like Revan's, that is, alone in a journey leaving the people I love behind, I could not help but wonder: what sacrifice? I did not really form any kind of deeper attachment (other than Kreia herself). Speaking of attachment to Kreia, what about the fact that her pain and death might be the death of the Exile herself? That seems something that has been conveniently "forgotten", another reason for feeling the conclusion didn't live up to the premises.

 

I have a mixed feeling about the implementation of the "Influence" system. While Obisidian needs to be commended for their attempt of giving more depth and interaction between the player and the party members (Bioware, shame on you for what you did on T3-M4! - nothing), I found myself torn at the idea of having to twist my nature to say things that'd please others, especially Kreia.

 

Overall, I did enjoy TSL though and I am happy I played it. Not only that, but I am pretty sure I will play it again some day and this time with a male lead.

 

But Knights of the Old Republic has overall been an unforgettable experience and keeps the crown.

[Snigaroo 115]

Fair Strides directed me over here, and I have to say I'm happy he did. Some of the questions you may have I might be able to answer.

 

I'd like to give you a dedicated response, but I'm incredibly busy just this second and can't at the moment. What I can do is direct you to the Compendium, the list of community-driven answers on /r/kotor, specifically the KOTOR 2 lore section. It has questions and answers which I believe might be able to clear up some of your confusion about endgame.

 

Hopefully tomorrow I'll be more available and I can make a response more directly geared toward your questions. Especially as regards the plot, I know an uncomfortable amount about KOTOR 2.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

As for why Kreia's death doesn't kill the PC, I might want to turn you to Vash.

You can speak with her using M4-78EP.

[Jango32 23]

I find TSL to be an improvement over KotOR 1 in every single way, from the writing to the mechanics. 

 

 "What was this all about?"

Well, I will use Scorchy's excellent let's play from 2007 to answer that: "[...]protagonist goes searching for his past. What's remarkable about KOTOR 2 is that the plot is only concerned with two things: the Mandalorian War, and the fallout from the Mandalorian War. As such, the game basically takes place 8-10 years ago, and the Exile is just reliving the consequences of it at present. There is no great war right now, no real galactic struggle; there's nothing really driving the Exile onward except his own personal desire to find out what happened to himself." 

 

EDIT: Well, I just thought that I should drop this here for you to watch when you have the time: 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jango32

[Sith Holocron 2,453]

Jango, I don't have have the link to Scorchy's walk through on my phone but could you provide it for Salk? It will help him oh so much.

[Domino5555 119]

I have a link: http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

[Sith Holocron 2,453]

Thanks, Domino.

[Salk 363]

Well, this topic was not much meant as a plea for enlightenment but rather sharing my own opinion about how I felt about the game itself.

 

People may or may not agree but I can say I would read a game walkthrough only if I were sure I'd not play a game again.

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

I also prefer K1 over TSL, but I'm only going to comment on a couple of your points here.

 

First, you mentioned how both games ended in the spiral of combat sequences. I think that one thing that makes K1 better in this regard is the fact that the long combat-filled sequence is part of a climactic battle, while TSL's is just slogging through a wasteland of a planet, with not much seeming to matter on a grander scale. Also add the fact that K1's is without a doubt the hardest combat sequence in the game, while for me TSL's was never that challenging and more of a chore than anything else. (As it happens, it's been several playthroughs since I actually finished the ending of TSL - I always seem to end up stopping after the Jedi Enclave visit anymore, because the rest is just boring.)

 

The other point I wanted to comment on is Kreia. You say that she's one of the best parts of TSL. I mostly just find her annoying, which probably contributes to my liking K1 more.

 

Oh, and one point of superiority that TSL does have that you didn't mention is its sequences where you control your party members on their own missions. I always liked that part.

[Jango32 23]

Also add the fact that K1's is without a doubt the hardest combat sequence in the game

Not sure I can agree with that. Sand People fights (I choose Tatooine as the first planet to go to) are a lot tougher for me than the late game ever was. It's probably because by the late game, you realise how OP people with Force powers (or Force buffs) are and find no gameplay reason not to bring a party entirely made up of Jedi. Jolee, Juhani and you with buffs powers; you and Jolee stun the waves of enemies as you chop through them. That, and you should have the best gear by that point, possibly combined with a tough build. 

 

EDIT: I also remembered the Hulak Wraids on Tatooine as your first planet. That right there is the hardest combat in the game, period (I haven't used ranged characters before against those buggers, so I will try that in my next playthrough).

 

 

Well, this topic was not much meant as a plea for enlightenment but rather sharing my own opinion about how I felt about the game itself.

 

I never intended to change your opinion on the game forcefully, I only wanted to answer at the very least one of your questions (or what I assumed to be questions) with that quote. The video recommendation is unrelated, I personally find that lorerun a wonderful viewing experience. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jango32

[Salk 363]

I agree with Jango32 about Tatooine giving you the hardest time in terms of battles but, just like Jango32, I also choose that as first destination and I am not sure whether this'd still hold true if we visited planets in different orders.

 

Eauxps,

 

I did say that the "issue" of boring combat sequences is way worse in TSL than KotOR. I even said that was the main factor for me liking the original better. About the possibility for the player of controlling other party members in the game, I have mixed feelings about it. On one side I like the idea (especially TSL where you control a non party NPC droid), on the other it alienates me from identifying solely with the protagonist, which is bad.

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

Not sure I can agree with that...

 

Well, at any rate, the Star Forge sequence is still pretty difficult (for me, at any rate), and more so than the parts of the game I've just been playing. Malachor is just same ol', same ol' most of the time. The exceptions are when a storm beast one-shots me, which is also boring.

[Guest]

Well, personally K2's atmosphere and writing is so much infinitely stronger, that when I reach Malachor there's always something to look forward to- talking to Kreia one last time, fighting Sion, watching how your companions react- whether they live or die. In TSLRCM it's almost like a proto-suicide mission from Mass Effect 2.

 

Kotor is fairly simple, confront Bastila- go kill Malak couple lines, ceremony; the end.

Simple, but rather tame if you ask me.

 

It would be different if like Dragon Age Origins you could talk to your party one last time -but you can't- the ending of the first feels a little shallow to me honestly, where-as the second has multiple versions with TSLRCM and to me is thematically stronger.

[HAL 1]

Both games have one big common problem, way more acute in TSL: the last part becomes an horribly boring, endless series of combat sequences against waves and waves of enemies. While this apply only to the Star Forge and it is thus rather limited in KotOR, the issue covers a way bigger portion of the game in TSL: it practically starts with the return to Onderon and lasts until the end of the game (before then, Nar Shaddaa gave an unfortunate taste of what was to come...).

 

I agree that the realization of that part of TSL could have been much better (though it is unfair not to mention the conditions in which the game was made), but it is much more involving than going through your enemies in K1, where you were only supposed to be delayed so Malak had time to prepare for your coming. In TSL, however, after Kreia's monologue on Dantooine you were finally aware what made you so special (you could conclude the reason from conversations with her before that, but at this point she made that explicitly clear) and all this killing wasn't only a level gaining machine, but you had an in-game explanation why it makes you constantly stronger and as you knew that a true danger lied on the path ahead, it was obvious that you had somehow to quickly gain some stregth (though you had an option to sneak past the enemies, you can't forget that).

 

Concerning the game's ending, I understand that you played vanilla? If so, I presume you're going to try RC now?  

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

See, for me, the lategame sequence in TSL just isn't all that involving, because to a fair extent I still don't know what the heck is actually going on. That's one key reason why I like K1 more: it doesn't have plot points that don't make any sense to me, which TSL does.

[HAL 1]

But when put together (including the cut content helps in understanding the plot better) the pieces make a rational story (for SW standards, i.e. if you don't concern yourself with the rest of the SW universe too much but instead treat the game's story more like self-contained, for fantasy it's good enough), though it does require effort to make it work in one's mind (that's what I like, this game had me thinking about it for a long time after I completed it) and I love that it is so non conventional and not so bluntly direct. C. Avellone said, because he didn't like SW very much himself but had to make a game in that world, he used it (or Kreia more precisely) as a tool to somehow convey what he didn't like about it (and in the process actually improved that world), breaking the old cliches established in the OT (ESB especially) that after so many years became just boring and artificial. 

But I'm starting to bloat the post unnecessarily and digress. Snigaroo has put a link to a compendium that explains quite a lot, perhaps you would like to have a look at it if you haven't already. Don't dismiss the plot so quickly, it really does make sense, though it's a shame that so much great content was cut so early in the production that there is no hope to restore it (like Atris taking Kreia's place), but perhaps complicating it more wouldn't do the game better overall.

[Salk 363]

HAL,

 

I actually played TSL with TSLRC 1.8.4 and  another number of modifications (see here). As I said, the plot is intriguing and somewhat engrossing but truth to be told, to me it was 95% Kreia's merit (I know I and Eauxps disagree here :_P ). The interaction with other party members and between party members a great improvement over KotOR, no doubt. But practically, for everything else, I still find the first game the superior one. Plot wise, it is less deep but equally captivating and less convoluted. But what truly makes the scale shifts towards KotOR is that I never (except the very last segment of the game and not even entirely) really got bored playing it. When playing TSL, I spent one third of the whole game wishing I could fast forward to the next "event".

 

The fact that the game tries and gives you a "reason" for the endless combat does not do much to alleviate the problem. It does not become any less boring and derivative. It is way better than infinite spawning though...

 

Also I don't think it is unfair to not mention the conditions under which the game was developed/released. It is not something that concerns the end user. I can sympathize with the developers but that's all...

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

Hey, I don't think that the game's bad either. I had plenty of fun with the actual gameplay, and did undestand everything up until the final confrontation with Atris (at which point the rushed nature of the game probably doesn't help anything). And I'd say that the plot is more compelling at the beginning of the game then at the beginning of K1 as well.

 

But for me, it's just not as enjoyable on replays as K1.

 

 

 

Am I going on too long about this?