Thinking of removing TSLRCM from the Workshop

[cerberusiv 3]

I just posted this on Steam and feel strongly enough to repeat it here.

 

"Frankly I don't care whether TSLRCM (and therefore M4-78) is available through the Steam workshop or not. I have previously installed both mods the old fashioned way and would have no problem doing so again.

There seems to be an increasing issue of getting the kotor games to run on newer systems and I think that means that in time it will revert to a niche interest game for those who are willing to and capable of getting it to run. TSL is having its day in the sun, enjoy it while it lasts but don't expect it to be that way for long.

The one thing I would be against is an older or unsupported version in the workshop. Either support it or pull it entirely. If some idiot uploads it again without consent just redirect the complaints to them, or to Steam support if it breaks someones game.

In short, if you don't like Steam, then have as little as possible to do with them."

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Between the releases on Steam, the popularization of TSLRCM and other major mods like K1R, the Aspyr update, and indeed the Workshop itself and the reinvigorated interest in modding it's brought about, the KOTOR community is in a much healthier place right now than I think many people would have anticipated it would be three or four years ago. I moderate the /r/kotor subreddit, and there's a really good case in point to be found there: just over two years ago we had about 2,000 members. Just barely over a year ago, on February 20th of 2015, we hit 6,000. And as of today, we're almost 12,000 users strong. In the first year we had nigh-exponential growth, and in the year since we've still managed to double our userbase.

Which just shows me it'll do all the more damage to Steam pulling it.

 

And I can hardly be called pulling the plug if newer versions still come out, just not on the Workshop.

[1Leonard 134]

Which just shows me it'll do all the more damage to Steam pulling it.And I can hardly be called pulling the plug if newer versions still come out, just not on the Workshop.

It's just a scorched earth tactic?

 

So what, you're going to hold your mod hostage or something because of something unrelated Valve does?

 

I'm having an increasingly harder time to understand your point of view, so please help me here.

 

How is Valve screwing their userbase over any different from you screwing yours? Because from where I'm standing, it sounds just as elitist.

[Guest]

It's just a scorched earth tactic?

 

So what, you're going to hold your mod hostage or something because of something unrelated Valve does?

 

I'm having an increasingly harder time to understand your point of view, so please help me here.

 

How is Valve screwing their userbase over any different from you screwing yours? Because from where I'm standing, it sounds just as elitist.

 

I have to agree, all this will do will make TSLRCM unavailable to casual users, and IMO no matter where you come from you should experience Kotor 2 with TSLRCM.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

I'm having an increasingly harder time to understand your point of view, so please help me here.

Basically this: I do not feel comfortable having TSLRCM (my work) up on Steam if Steam treats me like a second-hand user. I am not going to support them if they do everything in their power to gun me down.

 

If Zbyl disagrees he's free to re-upload it, but he will have to maintain it and deal with the people.

[1Leonard 134]

Basically this: I do not feel comfortable having TSLRCM (my work) up on Steam if Steam treats me like a second-hand user. I am not going to support them if they do everything in their power to gun me down.

 

If Zbyl disagrees he's free to re-upload it, but he will have to maintain it and deal with the people.

1. How exactly are you a second-hand user?

2. How are they doing everything in their power to gun you down?

3. How does this all lead to you punishing the users of Steam (and not Steam itself) for this?

[Hassat Hunter 571]

1. I don't have a smartphone.

2. Massive penalties that completely make me unable to trade or use the market (except for buying of course...)

3. I don't want my work up on Steam with this, pull out while I still can before Steam goes even more draconic.

[1Leonard 134]

1. I don't have a smartphone.

And this is your users' and fans' fault... How?

 

2. Massive penalties that completely make me unable to trade or use the market (except for buying of course...)

And this is your users' and fans' fault... How?

 

3. I don't want my work up on Steam with this, pull out while I still can before Steam goes even more draconic.

I can understand your sentiment, but again: this is just about the worst way possible that you could go at it.

 

Instead of explaining to the people through a blog post and/or a petition why this bothers you, instead you decide to take something something that thousands of people hold dear hostage and threaten to take it away. Are you hoping to scare 200.000 something subscribers into following your cause? Do you think that is an ethical thing to do?

What exactly do you hope will come from this? Because the only way I see this end is by casual users being punished.

 

It's as if I shoot a random person because my boss fired me: Wrong tactic, wrong target.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

I hate it as much as you do, but the only alternative is just letting Steam waltz over people. I'm not going to suck it up.

This is the lesser of evils.

 

EDIT: I tried the talking path, they banned me... so...

[LS2 15]

I hate it as much as you do, but the only alternative is just letting Steam waltz over people. I'm not going to suck it up.

This is the lesser of evils.

 

If you've already made your decision, why even make this thread? Why even post in it? As much as several users have attempted to encourage you to think about this from a community standpoint, to realize that this action is not simply personal but will have serious repercussions on the entirety of the KOTOR community, you seem just as intent on going on as before. If that's so, why not simply make your decision and let's have done?

 

You can believe that this stance will have meaning, but I assure you it won't. Valve wouldn't bat an eyelash if a mod which had hundreds of thousands of downloads were removed; if ten of the largest Skyrim mods were removed right now, I assure you that the most they would do is shrug, if they even noticed. And I tend to think they wouldn't. They are a massive corporation, and they don't care about you, or me, or anyone else as an individual. That might bother you, that might piss you off, but it's also simply a fact, and it's not something which is going to change. Removing TSLRCM won't give you a voice, it will merely make you appear petty.

 

I am not a frequent user here, but I also have experience, a lot of experience, working in mass environments and with large institutions. I know that this will get you nowhere, and I hope for the sake of the KOTOR community--and frankly, for the larger responsibility to that community I believe is demanded of you as a power-user--you trust the words of a relative stranger and let this lie.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Because it's not 9 March yet, so this is all hypotetical till they infact do the much hated change.

The wish of course is for Valve to come to their senses before then.

[1Leonard 134]

I hate it as much as you do, but the only alternative is just letting Steam waltz over people. I'm not going to suck it up.This is the lesser of evils.EDIT: I tried the talking path, they banned me... so...

Oh please... Give me a break.

 

Opening with calling people cocksuckers? How exactly is that the "talking path". Seriously, calling people names? Is that your idea of a discussion? Opening a discussion would be creating a blog post with you explaining who you are and what your grievances with Steam are and then sharing that post through game journalist outlets and the big gaming subreddits.

 

I also don't get how this is the "lesser of evils". Even IF you would consider Valve an evil(which I do not), what you're planning won't replace that evil with a smaller one, but just add to it.

 

Also quite frankly I'm amazed by the willingness of the DeadlyStream users here to jump on this bandwagon. I always considered the ease of use for the users a big priority, together with the fun making your mod. The point of releasing your mod is having a large amount of players being able to use it, right?

 

Right now it seems more like you're projecting your inability to trade onto your mod. Looking from Valve's perspective I can see where they're coming from. Almost everyone currently has access to a smart device to confirm their transactions on. In the steam thread a user even gave you an open source program you can use to confirm transactions: WinAuth.

 

I can understand your frustrations, but I'm asking you, and all of DeadlyStream: what seems more reasonable, you using WinAuth if you don't have a smart device, or 200.000+ users losing access to the mod?

[Hassat Hunter 571]

That wasn't exactly my first, tenth or twentieth even post in that thread. Opening? Don't make me laugh.

[LS2 15]

That wasn't exactly my first, tenth or twentieth even post in that thread. Opening? Don't make me laugh.

 

You still insulted someone, and in so doing broke the rules. I don't see why they're at fault for enforcing their policy.

 

You've already been provided an alternative. I can only assume your unwillingness to make use of it is either wholly misguided principle or, frankly, a victim complex.

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

You've already been provided an alternative.

You do realise that smartphones cost money, right? Quite a bit of money - generally those with less money are less inclined to buy something they don't want and will hardly use. This 'alternative' is now an expensive 'mandatory'. I don't have a smartphone and will likely be a long time before I do. Until smartphones become much cheaper, forcing people to get them to use steam trading is both unfair and exploitative.

 

You are basically judging someone over not having enough disposable income to just throw money at things they will hardly use or need.

 

On a side note: Personally, I don't think removing the mod from the workshop is the best idea because it would punish the wrong people.

[1Leonard 134]

You do realise that smartphones cost money, right? Quite a bit of money - generally those with less money are less inclined to buy something they don't want and will hardly use. This 'alternative' is now an expensive 'mandatory'. I don't have a smartphone and will likely be a long time before I do. Until smartphones become much cheaper, forcing people to get them to use steam trading is both unfair and exploitative.

 

You are basically judging someone over not having enough disposable income to just throw money at things they will hardly use or need.

 

On a side note: Personally, I don't think removing the mod from the workshop is the best idea because it would punish the wrong people.

Read the thread again and don't jump to conclusions

 

A Steam user in his steam discussion thread provided him with an open source and free program able to receive those trade confirmations. He also provided several other options, none of which cost money.

[LS2 15]

You do realise that smartphones cost money, right? Quite a bit of money - generally those with less money are less inclined to buy something they don't want and will hardly use. This 'alternative' is now an expensive 'mandatory'. 

 

No, I'm not speaking about the smartphone at all:

In the steam thread a user even gave you an open source program you can use to confirm transactions: WinAuth.

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

Ah right, "WinAuth".

 

For some reason I seemed to process it as "BlueStacks App Player", which I read about separately on this thread as not working, so I discounted it.

Right, that makes a lot more sense.

 

Sorry about that - moral of the story: don't read heavy threads when you're tired.

 

TL;DR version: 'Too Long; Didn't Process'

 

[Edit]: As an addendum/afterthought:

I can understand HH not wanting to deal with Steam (Although we've yet to hear back from HH on the WinAuth matter; it's entirely possible HH simply didn't see that). However I think that removing the workshop mod will punish the wrong people and will not meaningfully affect change. I am not familiar with how the steam workshop works; So is there any way to simply transfer authorship to Zbyl or someone else involved in the TSLRCM project?

[Vriff 21]

You do realise that smartphones cost money, right? Quite a bit of money - generally those with less money are less inclined to buy something they don't want and will hardly use. This 'alternative' is now an expensive 'mandatory'. I don't have a smartphone and will likely be a long time before I do. Until smartphones become much cheaper, forcing people to get them to use steam trading is both unfair and exploitative.

 

You are basically judging someone over not having enough disposable income to just throw money at things they will hardly use or need.

 

On a side note: Personally, I don't think removing the mod from the workshop is the best idea because it would punish the wrong people.

You can pick up a smart phone for less than $50

[Hassat Hunter 571]

@Seconddoubt: Not that I know of, Zbyl would need to fully re-upload it.

I did read about WinAuth, but the whole point was a "second device", obviously people massively circumvent that (no stuff with this draconic penalty stuff) voiding the entire point. So why not allow an opt-out. Cause Valve's are being dipsplits.
And an emulator would still require resources, is a security risk and to top it all of I am FORCED to run that alongside Steam every time I would want to trade or use the market. The hoops are real.

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

You can pick up a smart phone for less than $50

That's... about £35, right?

£35 for something I don't want and will almost never use...

 

No thank you.

 

Although if you'll look up you'll find the point has already been rendered moot.

 

If I ever decide to use the trading cards on Steam, I think I'll just this WinAuth thing mentioned above.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Yes, I do LOVE throwing my money into a useless black hole. Wasting money is my favorite activity. So kind of Steam to appease to my inner "buy crap you never use OR ELSE" mentality.

 

[/sarcasm]

[sEcOnDbOuToFiNsAnItY 60]

RE: the whole 'removing the mod from the workshop will cause saves to become unloadable' matter:

 

As someone who plays both XCOM 2 and Attila: Total War with heavy amounts of mods, I have found this to be dependant on the game in question.

 

XCOM 2 will outright refuse to load saves with mods that are not present any more. Attila: Total War on the other hand will - although depending on what the mod does, the individual save may have issues such as being functionally broken or unplayable. This is the case for all Total War games with a Steam workshop.

 

I don't have the Steam version of TSL, so I think it is a good idea for someone with the Steam version to do some testing and report back to us as to whether Steam-TSL is like XCOM or like Attila Total War.

 

RE: The main topic at hand:

 

I said in one of my previous comments that I felt that removing the mod from the workshop would be a bad thing. I will now further expand my view.

 

Point 1:

HH's problem with Steam is that Steam is not considering those who prefer not to use smartphones and don't want to waste their money.

 

My problem with HH's suggestion is that HH is suggesting doing the very same thing that Steam is doing. HH is using a personal grievance to suggest restricting others to try and get to Steam.

 

I feel what has happened is that HH has been caught up in emotions on the matter and has not realised this.

 

We all have our moments where our emotions get the better of us and we forget ourselves. That's okay - it is intrinsic to what makes us people. But when we realise this, we become responsible for taking responsibility of our mistakes, acknowledging them and correcting them.

 

HH. Please see what you are, at heart, suggesting.

 

Point 2:

Then there is the issue of the idea that this move will hurt Steam.

 

Quite simply, it is very unlikely.

 

TSL is minor on Steam. It is very doubtful that taking the mod off the workshop will affect their income in any drastic way.

 

If someone buys TSL for the Restored Content Mod (through Deadlystream or ModDB or Steam), there is no reason for them not to buy the Steam version if they frequently use Steam. The hosting location of the mod is not going to affect that platform it is purchased on (be it 4CD, Steam or GOG).

[1Leonard 134]

I did read about WinAuth, but the whole point was a "second device", obviously people massively circumvent that (no stuff with this draconic penalty stuff) voiding the entire point. So why not allow an opt-out. Cause Valve's are being dipsplits.

All banks I know use two point verification, what exactly is wrong with safety?

 

And this "opt-out" you propose is not a bottom-up one proposed by the users but rather imposed by you from the top-down. If you look at the Protests against SOPA and PIPA there were genuine issues that were discussed by the userbase for weeks on end before sites decided to either take itself off the air in protest to these proposals with only a page explaining why, or to add functionalities to their sites to inform unknowing users on said issue.

 

Your proposed opt-out will not lead to either of these two things, but only to one thing: your users will get irritated. Maybe you're hoping that their anger at their unplayable game will be turned to Valve, but it probably won't. Because they don't know why their game is suddenly unplayable.

 

Now run with me for a second: What if you wrote that blog post I suggested a couple of posts back?

We have the author of one of the most expansive and (dare I say) best mods ever, one that's also approved by the author of a very popular game. Said game is one of the best in a brand that recently had a huge uprising after a new film. We have a big corporation with millions of users who is about to force its userbase to adhere to an arbitrary new rule. We have CENSORSHIP for crying out loud! The establishment against one lone individual? The internet eats all that stuff for breakfast.

 

In short, we have all the elements that are needed to create perfect protest under the users. If you had written a blog post and circulated that through the popular subreddits and the KotOR subreddit, for example, the media would have immediately picked up on that. Loads of users who aren't involved in KotOR and its mods would have been informed of your cause.

 

Instead you decide to threaten your own fans and users.

 

You see my problem here? That's what's perceived by the twothousandsomething subscribers to your mod.

 

 

Now, there are two reasons I can think of why you would not write that blog post, either:

1. You didn't think of it because of a certain reason, emotional or logical or whatever, or just didn't want to put time in writing a blog post.

2. You didn't want your cause to be scrutinized by certain people who visit said huge subreddits. Perhaps what you perceive to be as problems aren't as big of a problem as you think?

 

Personally, I think you have a case here, but as I said, this is not a very good way to go about it.

[Guest]

 

 

I don't have the Steam version of TSL, so I think it is a good idea for someone with the Steam version to do some testing and report back to us as to whether Steam-TSL is like XCOM or like Attila Total War.

 

Nobody should bloody well have to.