Leave canon out of video games...

[Lord Byron 6]

You don't need it. Revan and the Exile should have been long dead and whatever happened in KotOR and TSL should have remained a mystery. A lot of historical information was destroyed, so no one would have necessarily known whether Revan and the Exile were men, women, heroes or villains in their time. I understand that you need to use canon in books, but not video games. Kind of defeats the purpose of role-playing games in the first place. And yes, I have a pro-dark side bias.

[Darth_Sapiens 90]

well then play the game without it, i personally need canon, i have read some fanon recently and most of it is way out there, canon for me defines what fits in a universe, without it there would be no consistency established between published material, the thing is while playing a game, you have many choices, do what you want, but you need to establish canon or else every time a video game covers a part of the universe it would be a mystery in history, though i dont like how canon flows some times, i do appreciate the need for establishing canonicity. and honestly, personal canon cannot be viewed as everyones canon, i hate jar jar binks, worst thing imho to happen to star wars, but he fills an important role, in a game i might completely massacre jar jar, as much as my heart wishes him gone, erradicated, vaporised, my mind knows it is for the better that he isn't. as frustrating as it is that tor turned out to be an mmo, (i do love rpg's), i appreciate the canonicity of its events, much of the story from what i hear isn't that bad. long story short, live with canon or have fun finding te true history of our favourite galaxy far far away, with i jumble of conflicting stories and all-powerful-can-wield-20-lightsabers-and-can-never-die-god-moding-everyones.

[Lord Byron 6]

Canon is fine in novels, but not in video games thank you very much. I think TSL proved you don't need to go by canon in games to make a great story. I HATE that they gave Revan a face, voice, alignment and gender in the game. That was NOT my Revan in the MMO. It's fine to do all that for novels, just not for games.

[Darth_Sapiens 90]

oh i see what you are trying to say lol i dont really pay attention to canon while i roleplay, however it needed to be established, sad, but true, what bugs me is that the exile and revan's canon appearances dont match any that we can choose from in game.

[Lord Byron 6]

I don't know man, I think they could have avoided it. They could have scrapped the Exile ghost idea and used a masked Revan. The player could've decided Revan's gender and that's that. With clever writing, Revan could have mentioned that he/she had mastery of the light and dark side of the force without revealing what decision he/she made at the unknown world temple in KotOR. At least just for the games. The purple lightsaber was a good idea at least, a mixture of blue and red.

 

"Defeated Darth Malak", for example, is more ambiguous than "saved the Republic."

[Malkior 476]

I agree that canon does help solidify a game universe, but when it rewrites existing canon as happened in TOR's case, then it ceases to be a mere establishment of canon and more of a whitewashing of it. What Obsidian did with TLS was rather brilliant actually. They added more detail and content to the original KOTOR, but made sure that it was ambiguous enough that it did nothing to destabilize what it had already happened (or had the potential to happen) It literally gave you the choice of whether your character saved the galaxy or tried to destroy it and even let you choose which gender Revan was.

 

Unfortunately as is the case with TOR, they completely did away with these potential experiences and simply said "NO, that's not how it happened. Our version is better and that's how it is." They did nothing to end the experience in any level of fairness to your ROLE PLAY and instead made it their version with no choice on your part whatsoever. It was like your favorite author wrote the first two books in a trilogy to the very climax of the story, and then the host company fires that author and writes it themselves.

If anything, this is less canonical than the source material, since after Kotor I and II you are effectively the author through your choices in the gameplay.

 

So they voted on who wanted what, but every single person who played the game should have equal rights to the content regardless of whether they are the majority or not.

[Rtas Vadum 17]

Unfortunately as is the case with TOR, they completely did away with these potential experiences and simply said "NO, that's not how it happened. Our version is better and that's how it is." They did nothing to end the experience in any level of fairness to your ROLE PLAY and instead made it their version with no choice on your part whatsoever. It was like your favorite author wrote the first two books in a trilogy to the very climax of the story, and then the host company fires that author and writes it themselves.

If anything, this is less canonical than the source material, since after Kotor I and II you are effectively the author through your choices in the gameplay.

 

Which becomes odd when you know the game is considered a MMORPG - the idea obviously being a game where you play a role, and can play that role with many other people(even if it is many people playing technically the same role, although I'm not sure of that, but I do know it isn't just a few options for characters).

 

But in general, I usually find myself having a preference for the version of the story that is non-canon. For TSL, I can respect and accept the Male LS Revan/Female LS Exile, but that really isn't the version I usually play. Mostly since even if I play lightside, I do not avoid using whatever power I want. Plus, I somewhat don't like it's presentation in K1, given that you are nothing more than another Jedi in the LS version, where in the DS version, hello Star Forge/Massive fleet, and my restored status as Sith Lord.

 

I do like what was done with Revan in K2, since it makes the character seem, not concerned about petty things, but rather more concerned about the Galaxy as a whole. The obvious point being, that if Revan mentioned to either the Senate, or the leaders of any other world about the problem that lie in wait, why would any of them want to believe it?(sounds damn similar to Mass Effect, doesn't it?). They have their seat of power, and to think that something would come to take that away, completely and utterly, would be almost impossible for them to think. So, rather than being peaceful, the understanding was, perhaps some might need to die, if the goal is to be achieved(i.e not letting the galaxy get completely destroyed).

 

Perhaps some of this is my own idealized version, and not exactly what was presented in K2. But does it not feel better than a wimp who, as always, has to "Follow the wisdom of the Masters", even if he knows better? Mostly since it is these same Jedi that wanted to...WAIT...while people are being slaughtered, world by world. "Well, we don't know enough to properly deal with the situation" - yes, but you don't seem to have any want to find out, either.

[Lord Byron 6]

If anything, Obsidian could have done without the Bastila and Carth cameos. Bastila could have been killed in KotOR and even if she wasn't, she's either in hiding or off searching for Revan. The player doesn't need to know that, though. There was no need to make Carth an admiral either, but since he couldn't die if Revan is light side, then that's okay. I think the player should have had a say on whether Bastila lived or died before seeing her cameo and if the player decides she's alive, only has a small, limited role.

[Malkior 476]

If anything, Obsidian could have done without the Bastila and Carth cameos. Bastila could have been killed in KotOR and even if she wasn't, she's either in hiding or off searching for Revan. The player doesn't need to know that, though. There was no need to make Carth an admiral either, but since he couldn't die if Revan is light side, then that's okay. I think the player should have had a say on whether Bastila lived or died before seeing her cameo and if the player decides she's alive, only has a small, limited role.

 

I really didn't mind the cameos. (Provided they wouldn't show up if you killed them....or Carth in your version of Kotor I) They actually explained what at least two members of your original crew were doing after those (4?) years. I don't like how they approached it, but the cameo gave Kotor 2 more of an identity as a true sequel rather than spin-off.

 

If anything, I would have liked to have known what happened to the others who weren't even mentioned. (such as Zaalbar, President of Kashyyk! with Mission as his..I don't know, Secretary of Defense or something.. ...and, seriously what ever happened to Juhani?)

[Lord Byron 6]

Yeah I didn't mind them either, but I can see why some people who killed Bastila would have been annoyed when she showed up on Telos. She should have been somewhere in hiding, or off searching for Revan if she was alive.

 

As for Juhani, she could have been one of the Jedi who died on Katarr, if she wasn't already killed by Revan. Otherwise, she was hiding somewhere. Possibly on her home planet?

 

As for Mission and Zaalbar, this guy who used to be a member of the Obsidian and LucasForums had this cool idea for a KotOR III plot years ago and in it (only if Revan is set to light side), Mission and Zaalbar are on Myrkr trying to get the local tree-like Neti to cooperate with a group of Wookiees against Czerka. Anyway, Hanharr is also on Myrkr trying to get the Wookiees to screw everyone off the planet, feigning an alliance with Czerka, but then planning to overthrow them as well. So the player has to make a light side or dark side choice and in the end the conflict comes down to a fight to the death between Zaalbar and Hanharr. Cool, huh?

[gua543 4]

Lots of off-topic here but here's my opinion on the Revan and Exile getting faces and all that - you have imagination, use it. I've had it enough with people crying about how their Revan was female, or had another face, or was dark side (same goes for the Exile). If you don't like it, then that's your problem. Personally, I like them and I like the four flashpoints made for them (even thought the Exile appears only in 2 and tells very little). I like their voice, their faces, I even like the book, "Revan".

[Lord Byron 6]

You bet I don't like it and as a matter of fact I think BioWare's writing has gone to crap. Amateur writers could have done a better job of avoiding crapping all over what the players did with their characters in Knights I & II. That's why some of us were pissed off about it. It was a totally unnecessary, cheap cop out. I'm not surprised, though - when you hand the franchise back to BioWare and totally ignore Obsidian who were begging to make KotOR III, that's what you get. We will never get to see what Avellone intended to do for a third game thanks to them. Although, they shouldn't have left the story open in the first place, but they only had eight freaking months to make a game.

[Sith Holocron 2,479]

Personally, I like them and I like the four flashpoints made for them (even thought the Exile appears only in 2 and tells very little). I like their voice, their faces, I even like the book, "Revan".

 

I think has a word for this . . . Betrayal!

 

(j/k)

[Jango32 23]

I find canon doing more harm than good in other areas of Star Wars, for example, the cursed CGI Clone Wars series. What they have done to iconic Star Wars elements such as the Mandalorians is beyond excuse...

[Lord Byron 6]

BioWare ignored KotOR II

 

I do admit I have a huge dark side bias. What can I say, many of the dark side options in the KotOR games were hysterical. I don't care if novels, comics and what not go by canon, I just don't like some video game telling me my Revan and Exile were goody two shoes. Uh, no they weren't, at least not in my original playthroughs. That was the beauty of those games. You could be a villain and actually win. Canon jumps in and says, "Uh, no, you lose once again." Just once, just once I would like to see a continuation of non-canon outcomes occurring in Star Wars.

[Lord Byron 6]

So why can't Obsidian make KotOR III and ignore BioWare? And BioWare did ignore Obsidian. They made it that the emperor turned Revan to the dark side, ignoring the fact that Revan left the infrastructure of the Republic intact and waged a war of conversion, not destruction. I think if Obsidian ever made KotOR III, they should ignore the novel and the MMO. Make the game about searching for whatever it was that lead Revan to the true Sith in the first place. Find the true Sith and help Revan and the Exile defeat them for good. The end.

[ADG12311990 21]

Forgive me for this long post...

 

Based on what you've written, And I don't want to make any assumptions, but I guess you haven't read the Revan novel, correct? But, Don't get mad at Bioware/Obsidian for the canon choices, that was done by Lucasfilm. Canon keeps things in neat order (For the most part) And, if I remember correctly, if you tell Atton you don't care about Revan on Peragus, the default info is that Revan is a light sided male. That is just Obsidian following the rules they were given when they made the game. Besides, if you say Revan turned back to the Dark Side in K1, Carth doesn't show up, and you only see Bastila as a hologram on Korriban. And, It's not like you HAVE to listen to Canon when they tell you that Revan/The Exile is a guy or girl. Light or Dark.

 

As for Revan, and the Sith Emperor. You are half right, and half misinformed. Revan and Malak found clues to the Sith Empire on Korriban and Malachor V. After the Mandalorian War ended, they went off to the Unknown Regions to find the Sith Empire, which lead them to Dromund Kaas. They confronted the Emperor who corrupted them, and turned them to the Dark Side. They returned to the Galaxy to find the Star Forge for the Emperor to use. Once they found the Forge, Revan turned against the Emperor and used the Forge for himself. And when the Jedi Civil War was going on, he left the infrastructure of the Republic intact so that WHEN the True Sith returned, the rest of the Galaxy would be ready for them.

 

Look, I want KotOR 3 as much as the next person, but... at this point, it'll never happen. It's not up to Obsidian either. They may want to do it (And I'd love for them to make one) But, It's up to LucasArts, and since We have The Old Republic, we won't get KotOR 3. (The Jedi Knight story in TOR is as close to KotOR 3 that we'll get. And It's an awesome story.) And, like I said, I don't want to make any assumptions, but... it sounds like you are hating on TOR/Bioware because you didn't get KotOR 3. Look, try the game out. It has a Free to play option (Yeah, it is a bit limited, but this isn't the place to talk about THAT)

 

EDIT, It's kinda late where I am, so sorry if this makes no sense.

[Lord Byron 6]

No I haven't read the novel, I've just read about it. That actually sounds alright. I might play the game, I've never played an MMO before.

 

Why couldn't they have made it like 3 years later and not 300 years later?

[Malkior 476]

@ADG12311990

 

With all due respect, the issue of canon is not the fact that TOR exists. The problem has arisen from Bioware and Lucasart's utterly deplorable treatment of the original KOTOR storyline. In the version written in that abominable novel, Revan is downgraded to minor villain who can't even manage to stand up to his "master", let alone stop him. All of his companions aren't even mentioned and Bastila has no role other than

lovesick mother or what-have you.

(you mentioned you wanted to read it)

 

Lastly, the writer went one step further and decided to

kill not only a fan favorite from Kotor 1, but the actual character YOU PLAY in Kotor 2

..(trust me, it's bad)

 

to show how (unstoppable: read, "bad") their newest Sith emperor of the week is. Suffice it to say, whenever this is used for "shock value", it's a result of bad writing..not some interesting plot twist; just bad writing. The disease runs further, though. Instead of leaving Kotor III alone to exist in some unmentioned dimension, they have the gall to make this drivel "official canon" and even make sure that everything after it matches up. They input the result of this utter disregard for fandom in their newest MMO and thus use it for its marketing. They literally threw away everything they built up with their fanbase in the past to propagate what they wanted to make money off of. (and also dashed our hopes in the same stroke)

 

TOR is its own canon, but it had absolutely no right to interfere with KOTOR's... Other than that, I have no problem with TOR.

 

 

..... Sorry about that, the original discussion was actually about how canon was forced on us, but it had to be said.

 

__edit

 

De-spoiler-afied the phrik out of my post

 

.. and tried to get back on topic... man, it's late.

[Lord Byron 6]

You do a much better job than me at arguing against canon, Malkior. Thanks.

[Malkior 476]

@Lord Byron No problem. I'm glad you brought up the topic. I've been lurking all over other articles, and they're all too old to reply to.

 

Also, your description of what could have been with the whole Zaalbar/Hanharr thing sounds really cool. I'm actually curious how that would have played out... Definitely would have given Hanharr more of a role than just the antagonist to Mira and more of a mastermind to spread his anger (hatred).

[Lord Byron 6]

I was just reading how there was a valid reason light side Revan could have been wearing a mask, too. Apparently Revan got the mask off the dead body of a random Mandalorian, after coming too late to prevent the massacre of Cathar. That random Mandalorian apparently was someone who had been executed by the other Mandalorians because she refused to participate in the massacre and Revan took up the mask in her honour. So light side Revan could have worn the mask as a symbol of courage. The Exile could have worn Nihilus' mask, as a symbol of the connection between the two of them, a theory proposed by this man years ago: http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2305090&postcount=1

 

That would have solved the appearance problem.

[Rtas Vadum 17]

Based on what you've written, And I don't want to make any assumptions, but I guess you haven't read the Revan novel, correct? But, Don't get mad at Bioware/Obsidian for the canon choices, that was done by Lucasfilm. Canon keeps things in neat order (For the most part) And, if I remember correctly, if you tell Atton you don't care about Revan on Peragus, the default info is that Revan is a light sided male. That is just Obsidian following the rules they were given when they made the game. Besides, if you say Revan turned back to the Dark Side in K1, Carth doesn't show up, and you only see Bastila as a hologram on Korriban. And, It's not like you HAVE to listen to Canon when they tell you that Revan/The Exile is a guy or girl. Light or Dark.

The main problem isn't really the Male LS Revan/Female LS Exile being cnnon. It is that there is NO option to set this in TOR - at least, not as far as I've seen or heard. If that option was there, you could play with some relation to how you played the previous two games. But this option is aside from the story they present for Revan and the Exile(I will NOT call her that bloody name, mostly because it sounds like one used in a bad fanfiction). I can see why this option wouldn't be there, given how much variability there would be, but it isn't like it couldn't be done.

 

As for Revan, and the Sith Emperor. You are half right, and half misinformed. Revan and Malak found clues to the Sith Empire on Korriban and Malachor V. After the Mandalorian War ended, they went off to the Unknown Regions to find the Sith Empire, which lead them to Dromund Kaas. They confronted the Emperor who corrupted them, and turned them to the Dark Side. They returned to the Galaxy to find the Star Forge for the Emperor to use. Once they found the Forge, Revan turned against the Emperor and used the Forge for himself. And when the Jedi Civil War was going on, he left the infrastructure of the Republic intact so that WHEN the True Sith returned, the rest of the Galaxy would be ready for them.

That might not sound bad, but it does not sound right either. Mostly because of this Emperor being needed to corrupt them, versus turning to the dark side for other reasons.

 

I was just reading how there was a valid reason light side Revan could have been wearing a mask, too. Apparently Revan got the mask off the dead body of a random Mandalorian, after coming too late to prevent the massacre of Cathar. That random Mandalorian apparently was someone who had been executed by the other Mandalorians because she refused to participate in the massacre and Revan took up the mask in her honour. So light side Revan could have worn the mask as a symbol of courage. The Exile could have worn Nihilus' mask, as a symbol of the connection between the two of them, a theory proposed by this man years ago: http://www.lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2305090&postcount=1

 

That would have solved the appearance problem.

Sure. But even KotOR defines the Revan armor as DARK SIDE, and I doubt they would resort to even the Star Forge robes(mostly since in BioWare's Star Forge Robes, the mask texture is no more than an inversion of the normal Revan robe texture). Which, even if you play lightside, if you wear those robes or anything else, you will NOT be wearing them during the ending cut-scene, unlike for Dark Side, where whatever you had equipped during the fight with Malak is displayed on your character.

[Lord Byron 6]

Sure. But even KotOR defines the Revan armor as DARK SIDE, and I doubt they would resort to even the Star Forge robes(mostly since in BioWare's Star Forge Robes, the mask texture is no more than an inversion of the normal Revan robe texture). Which, even if you play lightside, if you wear those robes or anything else, you will NOT be wearing them during the ending cut-scene, unlike for Dark Side, where whatever you had equipped during the fight with Malak is displayed on your character.

 

Then just have Revan and the Exile in the game doing something important, but without actually physically seeing or hearing from them. We could hear about what they're doing from someone who's in contact with them, but that's about it.

[danil-ch 68]

Once they found the Forge, Revan turned against the Emperor and used the Forge for himself. And when the Jedi Civil War was going on, he left the infrastructure of the Republic intact so that WHEN the True Sith returned, the rest of the Galaxy would be ready for them.

In book Revan simple forgot about the Emperor And start to believe it was his idea to conquer the Republic.

So it doesn't make sense why he would want to keep the Republic infrastructure intact.