Atheism and religion

[Working Class Hero 12]

I'm starting a thread because it's annoying to have a discussion like this in the update section.

 

 

When all's said and done atiesm is a religion. Athiesm's theory on the origin of the universe is Evolution.

 

This simply isn't true, evolution cannot be used to explain the origins of the universe, it can only explain how life developed once the universe had already formed. Atheists have many different hypotheses on how the universe formed, from spontaneous combustion to the universe never having a beginning, being only an endless series of contraction and expansion. Definitively stating that atheism has only one idea on the origins of the universe is just wrong.

 

 

When it comes down to it we will all find out the answer to this when we die and so we should focus on how we can be better people to each other in the present.

 

People who think they know the will of god have been the most violent and resistant to education in human history. It will be impossible for humanity to progress further as long as there are people who think god wants them to throw acid at women who won't marry them.

 

Athiesm is a religion based on the pre-supposition that there is no God.

If I say there's a microscopic teapot orbiting Jupiter that sends thoughts into our minds and you don't think that exists, are you then part of an anti-teapotist religion?

 

 

[darthbdaman 71]

Atheism is simply the belief that there are no deities. Yes I am an Atheist.

[jswartz0181 18]

I'm starting a thread because it's annoying to have a discussion like this in the update section.

Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about there. Update section?

 

That said, all I'm going to say (whatever this is really about) is that organized religion is a relic of ancient times, the sole purpose of which was to explain that which was unexplainable at the time. Unfortunately, that's the exact same purpose of science, and thus all the problems we see today. Now, considering the last of the scriptures of the Bible were written around 200 CE, and modern scientific method came to be in the 17th century, there are ~1,400 years between the two, thus simply put, science should supersede religion in all cases. Funny thing is, if you've ever seen Bill Maher's Religulous, that fact is pointed out by a Vatican priest!!

 

As atheism is by definition non-theist, I'd be hard pressed to call it a religion. It's just acknowledgement that religion is outdated, unprovable and all around unnecessary in today's world.

[Sith Holocron 2,480]

Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about there. Update section?

 

WCH is referring to the "Recent Status Updates" section on the right hand side of the top-most page of the forums.

[jswartz0181 18]

Thanks. Never seen that, as I never look there. As soon as I bring up the page, I immediately click "View New Content." And when I do scroll down, I completely ignore everything not the forums.

[Guest Plastic]

People who think they know the will of god have been the most violent and resistant to education in human history. It will be impossible for humanity to progress further as long as there are people who think god wants them to throw acid at women who won't marry them.

 

This is a sad fact, but may I also point to many others such as William Wilberforce, who spent much of his life trying to stop the Slave Trade of Africans. George Mueller founded an orphanage (and you can see God's hand in how he kept it running, or perhaps it's "coinsidence"). There are other people I'm sure we could mention.

 

May I just say that taking revenge on people who refuse to do what you want them to do (marrying you, as you suggested in the quote) is not condoned by God. Jesus said:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44 King James Translation of the Holy Bible)

Elsewhere in the Bible Christians are told to put others before them. We are to consider others before ourselves. Sadly many who call themselves "Christians" Won't try to live like the "Christ" in "Christian". Don't worry, God doesn't like phony Christianity anymore than you do.

 

Now as to your claim of Christianity hindering progress. Some of the great names of Chemistry and Physics believed in a God. Robert Boyle, famous in the field of Chemistry, was a devoted Christian. Issac Newton believed in God. Even Einstein, while he did not believe in the God of the Bible, believed someone must have started the universe.

 

So while there have been many evils done "in the name of God," I'd also say that many goods have been done. You can't lump all Christians into the same groups as the Crusaders who killed thousands of Muslims and Jews just because they weren't Christians. That would be like claiming that Athiesm is evil because Communists like Stalin and Lenin killed thousands of their own people. (The Soviet Union frowned on religion, and favoured Athiesm, after all)

 

As you can see, to say that religion is evil just because of the actions of certain groups, is illogical.

 

Personally, I am of the opinion that true Christianity is not a "religion" per se (I define religion as man's attempt to get to God). I believe that Christianity is a person: Jesus Christ. (But let's leave it there. shall we?)

 

 

Plastic said:

 

 

When all's said and done atiesm is a religion. Athiesm's theory on the origin of the universe is Evolution.

 

Working Class Hero said:

 

This simply isn't true, evolution cannot be used to explain the origins of the universe, it can only explain how life developed once the universe had already formed. Atheists have many different hypotheses on how the universe formed, from spontaneous combustion to the universe never having a beginning, being only an endless series of contraction and expansion. Definitively stating that atheism has only one idea on the origins of the universe is just wrong.

 

 

Sorry, what I meant is that when all is said and done, there is no solid proof either way. It takes faith to believe in either Athiesm or Christianity.

 

 

For arguments and "proof" of Creation (like I said, it is only information that supports Creationists' hypothesis) go to http://creation.com/

 

Thank-you for reading, and let's try to respect each other's views.

 

Until next post,

[Guest Plastic]

Eh! Double posted instead of editing!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, Carry on.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

All WCH is doing is trying to build an army of atheists with this thread. He hates all things pertaining to God, and eats children in their sleep.

[Guest Plastic]

All WCH is doing is trying to build an army of atheists with this thread. He hates all things pertaining to God, and eats children in their sleep.

 

Ha!Ha! By the way, I do realize that just because someones an athiest, it doesn't make them more evil than the rest of us.

 

Jokes aside, I have seen other topics like this on other forums, and they end up being arguments for arguments sake. I've put forth my opinion, and I will probably continue to post on this topic, but it's just one issue.

 

I believe the Bible, and in Genesis chapters 1-3, God describes the origins of the universe. This is good information, but it's just one topic touched on in the Bible. I think some creationists just get carried away on the Creation\Evolution debate.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

I am aware that atheism =/= evil, but WCH is an atheist and evil, a fact that he can and will confirm himself.

 

I believe there is some middle ground between evolution and creationism - not everything in the Bible is necessarily true perhaps, but maybe represents metaphorically something greater.

 

 

On the subject of Atheism being a religion, I'd say you can only consider it a religion if there are prescribed rituals involved with being an atheist... and I can't say that I know of any.

[MrPhil 58]

I, for one, am a fervent user of the «pensée réflexive». Not sure what it is actually called in english, but it means that I will generally try to use doubt to confirm (or infirm) informations. Therefore, there are things that can't be proved. Who or what created the universe is just one of them. You basically have the choice of believing the bible (which I'd remind you has be written by men!), that the universe has been created by god, and that the women has been created from Adam's rib... not to mention the raining frogs in Egypt......... or you can agree with theories that tries to explain the origin of universe. Then again, nothing is sure. And to be honest, there is only one thing each of us can be certain will happen: we.will.die. And so, maybe we'll know what's what when we'll die. Maybe our "life essence" will form another being. Maybe whatever... But all these are maybe's. I think there are more important topics in today's society. Energy consumption being one of many...

[bead-v 251]

May I just say that taking revenge on people who refuse to do what you want them to do (marrying you, as you suggested in the quote) is not condoned by God. Jesus said: ...

Elsewhere in the Bible Christians are told to put others before them. We are to consider others before ourselves. Sadly many who call themselves "Christians" Won't try to live like the "Christ" in "Christian". Don't worry, God doesn't like phony Christianity anymore than you do.

This may not be so in religions other than Christianity, and WCH was talking about religion in general.

 

Now as to your claim of Christianity hindering progress. Some of the great names of Chemistry and Physics believed in a God. Robert Boyle, famous in the field of Chemistry, was a devoted Christian. Issac Newton believed in God. Even Einstein, while he did not believe in the God of the Bible, believed someone must have started the universe.

Makes you wonder what they would be able to achieve if they didn't believe in god. lol

 

So while there have been many evils done "in the name of God," I'd also say that many goods have been done. You can't lump all Christians into the same groups as the Crusaders who killed thousands of Muslims and Jews just because they weren't Christians. That would be like claiming that Athiesm is evil because Communists like Stalin and Lenin killed thousands of their own people. (The Soviet Union frowned on religion, and favoured Athiesm, after all)

True, but that means they ended up being good by "chance", since at the time when the actions were being carried out, both the later-turned-out to-be evil and good things were all good and right. =P

 

 

As you can see, to say that religion is evil just because of the actions of certain groups, is illogical.

Agreed, you probably can't call any religion evil, since each one does *something* that's "good" for *someone*. But you can call all of them stupid, since they're all based on imagination.

 

Personally, I am of the opinion that true Christianity is not a "religion" per se (I define religion as man's attempt to get to God). I believe that Christianity is a person: Jesus Christ. (But let's leave it there. shall we?)

Attempt to get to god? So first you have to accept that god exists, a thing that cannot be deduced, only made up, so it's only a matter of doing what somebody else tells you to, just like a sheep.

 

Sorry, what I meant is that when all is said and done, there is no solid proof either way. It takes faith to believe in either Athiesm or Christianity.

Yes, you are right, but you should know that there are many people who are neither atheists not religious. The way you seem to define atheism is that the subject believes that there is no god. In this case you could call it a religion.

 

But since there is no evidence neither that good exists nor that he doesn't, some people believe neither, don't deal with it at all, let their imagination rest, and live their lives normally.

 

Thank-you for reading, and let's try to respect each other's views.

Hard to earn my respect if you believe in something that seems stupid to me.

 

I am aware that atheism =/= evil, but WCH is an atheist and evil, a fact that he can and will confirm himself.

ROFL, I still remember when you were telling me just the opposite. =P

 

Man, I had to crop down my post, because it was too long and the quote tags stopped working.

 

And MrPhil, agree with everything, except that it's not an important topic. People act and judge the world based on those beliefs, if women, gays,... suffer for it, it's not so unimportant.

[darthbdaman 71]

Jesus Christ was the greatest con man in history "I am the son of god... ya. My mother said she was a virgin and I totally believed her... so ya, give me lot's of money and worship me."

Also the greatest atrocities ever, have been committed in the name of god.

Also Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are the same thing, deal with it.

[Guest Lex]

When I was a child, I used to believe in a greater being, I used to pray, go to church and all. Then when I was 13, 14 I became an atheist (I don't remember how it happened, and it doesn't really matter to the point I want to make). Some years ago (when I was 15, 16 - now I'm 21)I used to be a fierce defensor of atheism, arguing that believing in a deity (be it called God, Allah, Javeh, Buddha etc.) was the ultimate proof of having a narrow minded, of wanting the world to be beautiful and logical and denying the truth etc etc.

 

Now that I'm a little bit older, I've came to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter what you believe. I still consider myself an atheist, but I see all beliefs (including mine) as a hopeless attempt to understand the world around us. As I see it, whether you choose to believe that God created the universe in 6 days or that it all began with the Big Bang, whether you think that God's will controls every moment of your life or that electrical and gravitational fields rule all interaction between electrons, neutrinos and quarks, you're still just making a your-belief-based description, you're not getting to the why, which I think that for all intents and purposes doesn't even exist. I don't know if I made myself clear, but what I mean is: you believe in the Big Bang, maybe you can even describe exactly how it happened, but you don't know why it happened. "Ha! See?, science sucks! Hooray religion!". Not so quickly. You believe that God created the universe, you know exactly how he did it (afterall, it's all written in the Bible, or so I've heard), but you also don't know why God did it, you just know he did.

 

Long story short: I don't care what you believe in because that's what you believe in, and if you're okay with what you believe in, then so am I. One thing that I just can't agree with is

 

Hard to earn my respect if you believe in something that seems stupid to me.

 

Then again, I suppose intolerance will never go out of style.

[MrPhil 58]

And MrPhil, agree with everything, except that it's not an important topic. People act and judge the world based on those beliefs, if women, gays,... suffer for it, it's not so unimportant.

 

I did not say it was not an important topic. I said that some more immediate situations should receive more attention. For example, weighting the benefit of nuclear energy (allow one generation to get energy and condemn the 30 next to live with unrecyclable radioactive debris, as we don't even know how to process-it back...)

[Guest Plastic]

Jesus Christ was the greatest con man in history "I am the son of god... ya. My mother said she was a virgin and I totally believed her... so ya, give me lot's of money and worship me."

Also the greatest atrocities ever, have been committed in the name of god.

Also Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are the same thing, deal with it.

 

Read the Gospels. Do you ever see Jesus asking for money to himself. What you are doing is comparing Jesus to a lot of "religious" wacko's out there today. Let me tell you: I am sure God is not ammused with this:

I had a dream from God yesterday. He told me I had to make a million bucks in one week for His work, or He will strike me dead. Please give me all your money! By the way, God blesses someone who gave a thousand dollars more then someone who gives 10 cents...

Total con-artist. I am sure this discusts God.

 

As the greatest atrocities being committed in the name of God, please re-read my above post, you will see that issue adressed: True Christianity (there are A LOT of false sorts of "Christianity") does not fight their enemies. They pray for them.

 

Islam=Judaism=Christianity? Wrong. I know you expected me to say this, but let me explain:

 

Judaism=Christianity? Yes, in a manner of speaking. Christ is the fulfilment of Jewish Prophecy. The Jewish God is the Christian God.

 

Judaism=Islam? Christianity=Islam? Wrong. Islam is a corruption of the God of the Jews and Christians. Their god, "Allah," was originally one of the many gods they served in Arabia. Only under Muhammad did he become the only god.

 

You might say, "But the Koran refers to Bible characters!"

 

Well, A little history lesson. Abraham had two sons. Their names were Ishmael and Issac. Out of Ishmael came the Arab people, Out of Issac came the Israelis. So both are related. (puts a new perspective on the Israeli\Arab conflict doesn't it? Brothers fighting.) They can both claim heritage in Abraham.

There is also conjecture that Muhammad learnt of other characters from Jewish and "Christian" settlements in the area.

 

As to the belief that Islam fulfils Christianity, Christianity is in no need of fulfillment. The only thing we're waiting for is what we call the "rapture." Jesus comes back and takes his followers to heaven, leaving the world seven years full of tribulation, so that Israel may find their Messiah, and I think that more of us "Gentiles" (non-Jews) will find Him too.

 

Judaism however, was, and is still waiting for their Messiah. Jesus is that Messiah. The Jewish People have not recognized their Messiah yet, but God is not finished with them.

 

Hope this clears some things up.

 

Hard to earn my respect if you believe in something that seems stupid to me.

 

 

Hmmmm. Insults? Really!?!

 

Okay. You say God cannot exist. Let me ask you a question: Do you know everything there is to know about the Galaxy? How much do you think you know? A whopping quarter of the knowledge in the universe? Surely you must come to the conclusion that in the 3\4 we don't know. There might be a possibility that God exists.

[MrPhil 58]

There might be a possibility that God exists.

 

There's also a possibility that it/he/she/them do not exist. I wonder what is achieved by finding out?

[Guest Plastic]

There's also a possibility that it/he/she/them do not exist. I wonder what is achieved by finding out?

 

If He does exist, and the Bible is true. The Bible says that we are sinners on our way to hell. If we trust Jesus Christ, who has taken our penalty, we are forgiven of our sins.

 

We have all sinned. We are all deserving of hell (yes, including me). God, in his mercy amd love, has provided us a way of escape: Jesus Christ, His Son.

 

When you think about it. If I'm wrong, and God doesn't exist, I am just misguided. But if I was right, I have been spared from hell, by a loving Saviour. I'm willing to bet on the latter. Are you willing to bet on God not existing, and ending up in hell?

 

Sorry if this offends you, but you did ask.

[MrPhil 58]

The bible has been written by men. The concept of paradise and hell are just that: concepts. How about god? The bible say he is good and love his children (us). Sometimes (uh yup, he just decided to wipe everybody but a few dozen, didn't he?).

 

Also, you assume he has provided a way of escape. Maybe this is only due to the fact that those that wrote the bible were optimistic? Can you infirm that God might have sent JC to put Chaos on Earth? Only god knows what he knows, and those that wrote the bible don't. How about proving that Jesus was God's son? What we can be sure is that he had a tribune, that some people heard what he said (whatever it was) and reacted. Otherwise, nothing can be proved.

 

Are you willing to bet on God not existing, and ending up in hell?

So if a person don't believe in god, that person will necessarily end up in hell? I think not. Besides, what if the Hinduists are right and you are wrong? That would mean you would not re-incarnate in your next life? Unlikely.

 

You have two concepts confused: religion and church. Religion is a belief. A belief that there is a kind of overseeing omnipotent presence. Church is a political instance that seek to organize the humans, to give them purpose and a certain code. But in the end, the church is not the religion and vice versa. So basically, what I've just told you is that the bible comes from the church. If you believe in god, the only course of action to "interact" with him is have faith.

 

Anyway, this hardly answers my question. I ask what you achieve by finding out about god's existence or not. You answer that you are afraid that not being faithful might conduct you in hell. I'll then rephrase: how will your life change, if you do find out that god exists (or not)?

[Guest Lex]

"When you think about it. If I'm wrong, and God doesn't exist, I am just misguided. But if I was right, I have been spared from hell, by a loving Saviour. I'm willing to bet on the latter. Are you willing to bet on God not existing, and ending up in hell?"

 

So God would be so petty as to send me to hell for not believing in him? That doesn't sound much like a loving savior to me.

[jswartz0181 18]

When you think about it. If I'm wrong, and God doesn't exist, I am just misguided. But if I was right, I have been spared from hell, by a loving Saviour. I'm willing to bet on the latter. Are you willing to bet on God not existing, and ending up in hell?

If you're right, then your god is a hypocrite, unworthy of worship. Gandhi would be burning in hell, while Hitler would be in heaven (he didn't do a thing that the Church hadn't done or supported prior). I personally would much rather be in a hell (which didn't get its modern day concept until the end of the Middle Ages as a means to scare people into belief, and before was just the peaceful existence EVERYONE but the truly bad people in Greek mythology was sent, but that just wasn't the reward that was heaven) than have to spend eternity with a hypocrite, who himself violates, depending on how you look at it, at least two of the seven deadly sins (envy/pride, since you can't worship anyone else, and wrath, dishing out such severe punishments for such petty things, and being so unwilling to forgive for them).

[darthbdaman 71]

This is my opinion on god, My link

[Guest Plastic]

I believe that God inspired men to write the Bible. Every page is right from God. He spoke to prophets, and they wrote His words.

 

"When you think about it. If I'm wrong, and God doesn't exist, I am just misguided. But if I was right, I have been spared from hell, by a loving Saviour. I'm willing to bet on the latter. Are you willing to bet on God not existing, and ending up in hell?"

 

So God would be so petty as to send me to hell for not believing in him? That doesn't sound much like a loving savior to me.

 

Okay, look at it this way.

 

Let's pretend I drove through a clearly marked 10 km\h zone at 110 km\h. The reason it has been reduced to 10 km\h, is that there is a blind children's convention right near by. I was caught, and justice demanded I pay a really hefty fine of 1 million dollars. I could never afford that! I am put up before the court. A resounding "Guilty!" is heard, and I am rightly condemned.

 

I hang my head in shame, cursing myself for not seeing the clearly marked signs, and driving at dangerous speeds near children crossing the road, and blind ones at that. The Judge looks at me, and sees that I am genuinely sorry. His justice demands that punishment is carried out, but His mercy wants to help me.

 

He walks up to me, and says, "If you will accept it, I will pay your debt, and you will be free of your crime."

 

I can do one of two things: Accept His gift gratefully, or refuse and go to gaol (jail, for you Americans ;-D ).

 

How does this relate to God?

 

We have all sinned against Him. His justice demands a punishment, but He is a merciful and loving God. The only reason He doesn't strike us dead and put us in Hell right now, is because of His mercy.

 

The Bible says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) We all deserve Hell. We have all lied, cheated, stole (even little things), lusted, hated, the list could go on and on. God in His justice, must punish us. But in His mercy He provided a way of salvation.

 

Romans 5:8 says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

I'll leave you with this:

 

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:16-19)

[Guest Lex]

"I believe that God inspired men to write the Bible."

 

Very well, that's your belief and I'm fine with it. But you see, even you admit that the Bible was ultimately written by men.

 

 

"We have all sinned against Him. His justice demands a punishment, but He is a merciful and loving God. The only reason He doesn't strike us dead and put us in Hell right now, is because of His mercy."

 

How, by being born? He created us so he could punish us? Ain't that just dandy?!

 

Besides, your speeding metaphor doesn't really answer my question.

[darthbdaman 71]

If you do not worship him and love him, he has a special place to send you full fire, smoke and eternal damnation, but he loves you and he needs money

And wtf, you were going 110 in a 10 zone but a guess if you give the church money and show up every Sunday anything can be forgiven.

I bet serial rapist's show up in churches and repent and everything is just fine.