Atheism and religion

[jswartz0181 18]

I believe that God inspired men to write the Bible. Every page is right from God. He spoke to prophets, and they wrote His words.

 

 

 

Okay, look at it this way.

 

Let's pretend I drove through a clearly marked 10 km\h zone at 110 km\h. The reason it has been reduced to 10 km\h, is that there is a blind children's convention right near by. I was caught, and justice demanded I pay a really hefty fine of 1 million dollars. I could never afford that! I am put up before the court. A resounding "Guilty!" is heard, and I am rightly condemned.

 

I hang my head in shame, cursing myself for not seeing the clearly marked signs, and driving at dangerous speeds near children crossing the road, and blind ones at that. The Judge looks at me, and sees that I am genuinely sorry. His justice demands that punishment is carried out, but His mercy wants to help me.

 

He walks up to me, and says, "If you will accept it, I will pay your debt, and you will be free of your crime."

 

I can do one of two things: Accept His gift gratefully, or refuse and go to gaol (jail, for you Americans ;-D ).

 

How does this relate to God?

 

We have all sinned against Him. His justice demands a punishment, but He is a merciful and loving God. The only reason He doesn't strike us dead and put us in Hell right now, is because of His mercy.

 

The Bible says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23) We all deserve Hell. We have all lied, cheated, stole (even little things), lusted, hated, the list could go on and on. God in His justice, must punish us. But in His mercy He provided a way of salvation.

 

Romans 5:8 says "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

I'll leave you with this:

 

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:16-19)

Only problem with your analogy is acceptance of your judge's offer is after the fact, knowing exactly what the consequences are. With your god, after the fact isn't good enough; you have to accept the offer before hand, without any assurances of what is reality. Showing remorse for not being theist after you die, no matter how genuine, still is punished by eternal damnation. Which is another thing. Jail (actually, prison in this case) isn't for all eternity. Even if you get life without parole, there's still an end to the punishment: death (and thus the afterlife you believe in). When does God say "Alright, your time's been served. You're free to join me now."? And at that point, what difference is there between believing and not, if the end result is the same?

[MrPhil 58]

So you believe that men were inspired by god to write the bible? But can you say so without a doubt?

 

We have all sinned against Him. His justice demands a punishment, but He is a merciful and loving God. The only reason He doesn't strike us dead and put us in Hell right now, is because of His mercy.

 

Again, there is a major flaw in there. God may exist, but we have to say the same of Allah, Zeus, Jupiter and a lot of diety. They all have the same chance to exist. And according to men thate wrote sacred tomes or sang sacred songs, each being "prophets" for their faithful,their desires are different. Therefore, the notion of sin may differ from one to another.

 

I am curious as to what makes you believe human notions such as Justice and Punishment might be god's will? If it is the bible, yet again, your reference is human and may therefore be influenced by men. If god exist he may not see justice as we see-it. There's a bird and a worm. The bird eats the worm. God is omnipotent, would he not ask that justice be made and the worm be able to punish the bird?

 

And again, you have to make a distinction between the Church and the Religion. The Church is where all these Roman/John/else citations are coming. You like citations don't you? How about this one:

 

Albert Einstein:

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

[DarthDaedric 15]

I believe in the Force. The Force surrounds us all and allows me to shoot lightning from my finger tips. I can trick anyone into believing what I want with a wave of my hand. When I die, I'll come back as a glowing blue ghost. Who needs any other god?

[darthbdaman 68]

I believe in the Force. The Force surrounds us all and allows me to shoot lightning from my finger tips. I can trick anyone into believing what I want with a wave of my hand. When I die, I'll come back as a glowing blue ghost. Who needs any other god?

 

^

[jswartz0181 18]

If it is the bible, yet again, your reference is human and may therefore be influenced by men.

Man that just makes me think of the movie Dogma! Been forever since I've seen that.

[Guest Plastic]

I believe in the Force. The Force surrounds us all and allows me to shoot lightning from my finger tips. I can trick anyone into believing what I want with a wave of my hand. When I die, I'll come back as a glowing blue ghost. Who needs any other god?

 

Ha! Ha! You know guys, he's got a point, this is a Star Wars forum. I've stated my beliefs. You can argue all you want, but we will find out when we die. While I Darth Daedric is being a bit flamboyant about this, I do think that there's not much point in carrying this on much longer.

 

However a few final comments from me.

 

Someone inferred that I think Hitler is in heaven and Ghandi is in hell. That is not the case. While Hitler may not have displeased "the Church," he certainly displeased God, and I cannot believe he was saved. I do not believe a person is saved by attending a church, I believe someone is saved if he personally knows the Saviour. While Ghandi was a good man, He didn't receive Christ as his Saviour. Heaven and hell are not dependent on one's "goodness". It is dependent on whether they have trusted Jesus.

 

Another thing, stop attaching me to the Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and other "formal churches." I am not affiliated with them. If you must know, I am an Independent Baptist.

 

To the statement that hell was made up by the "Church" in the Middle Ages, the book of Revelation refers to hell:

 

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)

 

The lake of fire is commonly refered to as hell.

 

As far as no chance after death, think of it as once you die, you are on your way to gaol (jail). If you accept the Judges offer, He will cleanse you from your sin, and dress you in Jesus' righteousness.

 

As I said before, God in His justice must have sin punished, but in His mercy, He has provided a way to have our names "written in the book of Life.

 

I think I'll leave it there. I don't want to continue my arguement. Call me misguided if you want. Call me a fool. I believe my chances are better following the Bible. I hope one day, before you die, you realize the truth of this. If not, I'm afraid God will be forced to carry out justice.

 

I think this will be my last post in this topic. I've said all that needs to be said I think. Saying more will just mean more arguements.

[MrPhil 58]

I think I'll leave it there. I don't want to continue my arguement. Call me misguided if you want. Call me a fool. I believe my chances are better following the Bible. I hope one day, before you die, you realize the truth of this. If not, I'm afraid God will be forced to carry out justice.

 

We shall see. Perhaps god will correct this opinion of yours when you get to him. Or perhaps it is you that will be disappointed when you'll discover you've been repentant all your life for all your sins, only to find out that it ends there and there won't be any god to appreciate your sacrifice.

 

Anyway, this is again all theorics. If you want to believe that the ultimate judgment of your life do not depend of your actions, but merely of your belief, then what I'll say next will be lost on you.

 

In application, you have 3 choices before you:

-Try to cope for your sins for the duration of your life/do nothing with your life. (latency)

-Try to make something good in the society without knowing what may happen afterwards (let us call this courage).

-Act in your own interest to get the better of your life (sometimes without regards for the negative consequences on the life of others) (let us call-it selfishness).

 

These are things you can have influence on. Are you familiar with the myth of the cavern? (Socrates, probably before any monotheism existed...) This story may interest you.

[Guest Plastic]

 

 

In application, you have 3 choices before you:

-Try to cope for your sins for the duration of your life/do nothing with your life. (latency)

-Try to make something good in the society without knowing what may happen afterwards (let us call this courage).

-Act in your own interest to get the better of your life (sometimes without regards for the negative consequences on the life of others) (let us call-it selfishness).

 

I know I said I'd stop, but I'll stop after this. :-P lol

 

Can I just say, that realising my sin, doesn't mean I will do nothing with my life. I recently went to a youth camp hosted by a church we associate with. We did things like making rafts, archery, walking down a vertical surface with a harness (I've forgotten what it's called). We don't do nothing with our lives.

 

The Bible also supports making a difference in society. Primarily this is the spreading of the Gospel (the story of salvation), but there is no problem with doing other good deeds (in fact we are commanded to do good to all men).

 

Anyway, I said I'd stop, so here it goes. I just didn't want to stretch this argument out.

[darthbdaman 68]

Problem religion, everyone believes different things all thought of by man. 9/11 those people thought they were going to heaven, in there religion, they were, it is all arbitrary.

[Guest Mablus25]

I have no comment

[Mandalore 61]

As a matter of fact, it was indeed the ancient Greeks that wrote the Codex Scienta, the first Bible, and since the majority of people in those days couldn't read, the scribes did in fact write in additional parts to the Bible. They also took out the whole of the Apocrypha, and added in the resurrection of Jesus (bearing in mind that representations of Jesus have remarkable similarity to depictions of Alexander the Great in the Battle of Issis mosaics). Originally, when Mary was told of the sightings of Jesus after his death, she did not tell the Disciples, because she thought she would be stoned to death for being considered mad.

So yes, the Bible was written entirely by men, and men dictated its contents themselves.

[Working Class Hero 12]

Issac Newton believed in God. Even Einstein, while he did not believe in the God of the Bible, believed someone must have started the universe.

Einstein was an atheist and never said that outside involvement created the universe. Newton did believe in god....and he also thought alchemy was real. He also refused to publish most of his work while he was alive because he was afraid the catholic (christian) church would go after him.

 

While most of your statements were intellectually insulting, that one I couldn't let go unopposed.

[Guest Disturbed205]

 

 

Einstein was an atheist and never said that outside involvement created the universe. Newton did believe in god....and he also thought alchemy was real. He also refused to publish most of his work while he was alive because he was afraid the catholic (christian) church would go after him.

While most of your statements were intellectually insulting, that one I couldn't let go unopposed.

I wouldn't describe Einstein as atheist, he is much better described as Agnostic, read his journals, publications, and statements.

While these discussions are always just fine and dandy, its pretty much useless to argue about religion on the internet. Most people found on the internet will be atheist, although many are too scared to tell anyone in real life, fearing ridicule. As some have already demonstrated here, atheists can be just as narrow-minded and and foolish as theists.

I myself believe that we could all be a child's science project, our universe in a shoebox under his bed. Forget it, let's just live life. The bible can be a good moral standard in some cases, but that's about it. If you take more faith in it, fine. To each their own. We should respect everyone's believes. To do otherwise shows ignorance.

[MrPhil 58]

The bible can be a good moral standard in some cases, but that's about it. If you take more faith in it, fine. To each their own. We should respect everyone's believes. To do otherwise shows ignorance.

 

That's my point, but according to some, if you do not recognize Jesus Christ as being the son of god... "Thou shall burn in hell". Which is somehow odd lol.

[bead-v 251]

... atheists can be just as narrow-minded and and foolish as theists.

To that I agree 100%.

 

To each their own. We should respect everyone's believes. To do otherwise shows ignorance.

Then go ahead and keep respecting nazis, racists, killers,...

 

You just can't consider your math valid if you add imaginary axiomata to it.

[Guest Dak Drexl]

Read the Gospels. Do you ever see Jesus asking for money to himself.

 

In Acts of the Apostles, Peter and God essentially kill a man and his wife who are trying to join the new Christian order. Why? Because he is forced by Peter to sell all of his belongings and give all of his money to Peter. The man keeps some money to himself (as any normal person would do)- Peter explains that in doing so the man is "lying to God". The man and his wife fall dead...

 

How is that not a little f*cked up? Obviously money-driven.

 

I'm not a big believer in this stuff, but I'm pretty well-read biblically and frankly I find it all to be bullshit.

 

Oh, happy judgement day everyone!

[Guest Disturbed205]

To that I agree 100%.

 

 

Then go ahead and keep respecting nazis, racists, killers,...

 

You just can't consider your math valid if you add imaginary axiomata to it.

I do, the Nazi party was one of the greatest political groups of all time, with an extremely strong, intelligent leadership.

 

To the second part - You realize that our science is riddled with theories, and hypothesizes right?

[bead-v 251]

To the second part - You realize that our science is riddled with theories, and hypothesizes right?

What does that have to do with anything? Math is theoretical, and does not have that.

[Guest Plastic]

In Acts of the Apostles, Peter and God essentially kill a man and his wife who are trying to join the new Christian order. Why? Because he is forced by Peter to sell all of his belongings and give all of his money to Peter. The man keeps some money to himself (as any normal person would do)- Peter explains that in doing so the man is "lying to God". The man and his wife fall dead...

 

I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I can't let this slide.

 

Edit: By the way, Peter didn't force the man to do anything.

 

Get some context. Read the story, afterwards I'll help explain.

 

Here is the text from the KJV:

 

Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Act 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Act 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

 

After Jesus went back to heaven (you can read of this in Acts chapter 1), Peter and the rest of the Apostles started preaching the Gospel (Good news of salvation See above posts by me). Many people were getting saved, but in doing so, they were gaining persecution by fellow Jews who did not believe Jesus was their Messiah.

 

When a Jew (most of the converts were Jews at this time) confessed his belief in Christ, his family would disown him. People would look down on him. He was excomunicated by society, if you will.

 

Some of the better off Christians decided to do what they could to help their poorer brothers and sisters in Christ. They sold their possessions, and entrusted the Apostles to distribute it to their needy brothers and sisters. This is an honourable thing to do is it not?

 

Ananias and Sapphira saw that people who did this were honoured, and thought that would be a good idea. So they sold a possession as well. However, they decided to keep back a portion of the profits. Fair enough.

 

However, they were giving it in a way that looked like they were "giving all that they had" to this cause, when in reality they were holding some back. They were doing it for the praise of men.

 

You see, the problem was not that they didn't give all their money, it was that they pretended to when they hadn't.

 

For confirmation of this fact reread this:

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

 

Peter said that he didn't have to give anything, but he had chosen to, and he had made it look like something it wasn't. Ananias (and his wife) were phony Christians, concerned with how it would benefit themselves (It would make them look good). I said before that God does not like phony Christians.

 

____________________________________________________________

 

Before someone brings up the "End of the World" fiasco of a couple of days ago. Let me just say that that guy is nuts to be trying to place a date on Christ's return.

Jesus himself said:

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[Working Class Hero 12]

When a Jew (most of the converts were Jews at this time) confessed his belief in Christ, his family would disown him. People would look down on him. He was excomunicated by society, if you will.

 

Ananias and Sapphira saw that people who did this were honoured, and thought that would be a good idea.

 

So you're saying that that Ananias and Sapphira decided to be excommunicated from society in order to gain praise from a loony pseudo-jewish sect? Do you really not understand the story?

 

The point is that the apostles had appointed themselves god's terrestrial distributors of wealth, as you admitted. So Ananias and Sapphira sold their own possessions and donated to this cult, yet god was supposedly pissed because they kept some for themselves, so "god" kills them....even if you want to pretend that god killed them for only lying, does it seem an appropriate response? Killing them after they had donated to this unpopular cult?

 

I said before that God does not like phony Christians.

How is this different than any other intolerant and pseudo-fascist doctrine in history? You people seem to take delight in not thinking about anything that might possibly depart from your book of ancient fairy tales.

[Mandalore 61]

Well said. And with that, I would like to request to join your evil Atheist army that was referenced to before.

[Guest Dak Drexl]

<Snip snap snip>

 

It's all about how you interpret it. You obviously interpret it from a religious point of view (which is fine) while I just read it as any other book (which IMO it is). I have read the story and in my eyes it's a selfish act on behalf of Peter and the Apostles.

 

Also it's said through the Gospels and Acts and that the Apostles stack mad bills; Judas was the "treasurer". However it's never implied that they give this money to the poor or even do anything with it.

 

Just how I see it.

 

Edit: I also want to say that you have cited a different translation of the Bible than I'm familiar with. I wont even get into how infinitely complicated that makes things xP

[Guest Qui-Don Jorn]

wow...this is hilarious.

[Guest Crixler]

I was raised as a Christian, but now my beliefs have become somewhat looser.

I believe in the big bang, and evolution, and God.

I do not believe in eternal punishment.

I believe that God tends to not get involved in things, really. Most accounts of God in the Bible or other sources are not really God. But maybe some are.

I'm not entirely sure if I believe in the divinity of Jesus, but I do agree with his teachings (what he really taught, not what most non-Christians (and many Christians) think he stood for).

I think there may be truth in every religion.

Zoroastrianism is particularly fascinating.

Fun fact: the 3 kings, wise men, or Magi (the original term for them) that visited Jesus in the Bible were Zoroastrians.

 

Also, I saw comments that Buddha is a deity. Buddhism does not consider Buddha to be a deity, and there are in fact multiple Buddhas.

[Guest JediKnight24]

As some have already demonstrated here, atheists can be just as narrow-minded and as foolish as theists.

 

To each their own. We should respect everyone's beliefs. To do otherwise shows ignorance.

 

Very sensible points, a few of the only ones of their kind present in this thread. I think what this thread needs is a healthy dose of this: http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html?wa_user1=3&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=flashback