Knights of the Old Republic III

[Mutilator57 140]

3 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

But Revan never went there. 

Even Canderous mentioned a Sith Empire in K1, but it seemed he referred to remnants of Exar Kun's forces. And there's older Sith like old Jorak Uln in the Valley of the Dark Lords, who was apparently from the Exar Kun times- and had kept the Academy open. But we are reminded in load screens that the Sith as a species had died out centuries ago. So I don't get the impression of the Sith Empire that was retconned for swotor, and certainly not the magnitude of threat.

So still curious, I did a bit of further checking. Here's what Kreia has to say:

"And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it in his own way".

I think the loadscreens are more of a general guide than anything to be relied on with accuracy. Further, those loadscreens also operate on the same knowledge that the PC has. To the galaxy at-large, the true Sith appear dead. That doesn't mean they actually are, even if that was probably the intent of the K1 devs. Clearly, K2 retconned this.

2 hours ago, Talyn82 said:

I am currently in the process of playing K2 with the restored content mod, and when conversing on the Ebon Hawk, Kreia says Revan met no Sith Empire.  Anyway Nihilus hunger would have driven him to the Sith if they had an Empire.  Like the Jedi masters on Miraluka, Nihilus would have consumed them.  It makes no sense how they could stay undetected from Nihilus for so long.  SWTOR's retcons will not be addressed in the mod.  

I'd be wary of what Kreia says. Remember, she manipulates you for the entire game. It's really only at the end that she finally comes clean as to her true motives. Your second point is interesting, but more of a plot hole than anything else. When it comes down to forecasting what unknown enemy Obsidian intended Revan to face, I think it's clear that the True Sith were that enemy. In addition to the dialogue in-game, devs have confirmed this was the case.

But at the end of the day it's your mod. You include whatever you like!
 

[Talyn82 84]

5 minutes ago, Mutilator57 said:

So still curious, I did a bit of further checking. Here's what Kreia has to say:

"And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it in his own way".

I think the loadscreens are more of a general guide than anything to be relied on with accuracy. Further, those loadscreens also operate on the same knowledge that the PC has. To the galaxy at-large, the true Sith appear dead. That doesn't mean they actually are.

I'd be wary of what Kreia says. Remember, she manipulates you for the entire game. It's really only at the end that she finally comes clean as to her true motives. Your second point is interesting, but more of a plot hole than anything else. When it comes down to forecasting what unknown enemy Obsidian intended Revan to face, I think it's clear that the True Sith were that enemy. In addition to the dialogue in-game, devs have confirmed this was the case.

But at the end of the day it's your mod. You include whatever you like!
 

Hey man thanks for your post.

But I might be bias since I am a Kreia fan, but it's been sometime since I completed K2 and I've never completed it with the restored content mod, which is why I am replaying the game with the restored content.  Anyway my point is I don't remember that quote but like I said it's been sometime since I completed the game.  The reason why I remember what she says on the Ebon Hawk is because I just went through that conversation.  But either way I think I picked an enemy old EU fans will like.  I just can't see how Nihilus's hunger could skip an empire full of Force users.

[Mutilator57 140]

1 minute ago, Talyn82 said:

Hey man thanks for your post.

But I might be bias since I am a Kreia fan, but it's been sometime since I completed K2 and I've never completed it with the restored content mod, which is why I am replaying the game with the restored content.  Anyway my point is I don't remember that quote but like I said it's been sometime since I completed the game.  The reason why I remember what she says on the Ebon Hawk is because I just went through that conversation.  But either way I think I picked an enemy old EU fans will like.  I just can't see how Nihilus's hunger could skip an empire full of Force users.

No worries. Most of this comes out at the end of the game which is maybe why you don't remember it. If you think you've got a better basis for a new story, go for it.
 

[Ebony Moon 187]

5 hours ago, Mutilator57 said:

So still curious, I did a bit of further checking. Here's what Kreia has to say:

"And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it in his own way".

I think the loadscreens are more of a general guide than anything to be relied on with accuracy. Further, those loadscreens also operate on the same knowledge that the PC has. To the galaxy at-large, the true Sith appear dead. That doesn't mean they actually are, even if that was probably the intent of the K1 devs. Clearly, K2 retconned this.

I'd be wary of what Kreia says. Remember, she manipulates you for the entire game. It's really only at the end that she finally comes clean as to her true motives. Your second point is interesting, but more of a plot hole than anything else. When it comes down to forecasting what unknown enemy Obsidian intended Revan to face, I think it's clear that the True Sith were that enemy. In addition to the dialogue in-game, devs have confirmed this was the case.

But at the end of the day it's your mod. You include whatever you like!
 

This is about the continuity for the mod Talyn is making, which honors what we find in the two games. Personally I don't go with the retcon, I go only what is found in K1, not even all of K2's stuff. It is all "Legends" now anyways. 

Here's a rather scathing review about the retcon which does point out the inconsistencies 

http://theunion4ever.com/nerd-bucket/sbswa-old-republic-part-35/

even that reviewer acknowledges that the devs intended this all along. 

Hell, I even did my own take of what is left of the Sith Empire in my old Kotor fics written years ago. Not very many of them are Force sensitive and they are surviving in a quiet corner of the universe, hardly a threat. I wanted to portray them as a people who wanted to be free of the corrupting influence of the fallen Jedi who had dominated them for centuries. The had even cleaned out any other remnants based largely on what was fanon way back then before Revan came along and struck a deal with them. I had taken that cue from the hints in the games., but I tried to keep it consistent, or at least what makes sense to me personally.

I still maintain that Nihilus would have devoured any significant presence of the Sith. He even comes out of the Unknown Regions in the game. Blatantly ignoring that doesn't make any sense.

6 hours ago, narshaddaarocks said:

Oh yeah! Was that in a comic? I've only read a few of the KOTOR ones.

Yeah, from what I remember Revan went out to the SWTOR Sith Empire and got knocked out and imprisoned by a Sith Lord there until The Exile and this weird Sith dude bust him out. After that, the Sith dude wants to take the Sheev clone out, but gets cold feet during the battle and stabs The Exile in the back and she dies just like that. Like wow, Drew. But like you said, he also screwed up Revan and Bastila, his own creations!   

Oh, okay, I saw that part. I was getting images of a huge Senate trial with all the politics involved. Which would be very entertaining, lol.

Yeah, Drew, why?

[Mutilator57 140]

41 minutes ago, Ebony Moon said:

This is about the continuity for the mod Talyn is making, which honors what we find in the two games. Personally I don't go with the retcon, I go only what is found in K1, not even all of K2's stuff. It is all "Legends" now anyways. 

Here's a rather scathing review about the retcon which does point out the inconsistencies 

http://theunion4ever.com/nerd-bucket/sbswa-old-republic-part-35/

even that reviewer acknowledges that the devs intended this all along. 

Hell, I even did my own take of what is left of the Sith Empire in my old Kotor fics written years ago. Not very many of them are Force sensitive and they are surviving in a quiet corner of the universe, hardly a threat. I wanted to portray them as a people who wanted to be free of the corrupting influence of the fallen Jedi who had dominated them for centuries. The had even cleaned out any other remnants based largely on what was fanon way back then before Revan came along and struck a deal with them. I had taken that cue from the hints in the games., but I tried to keep it consistent, or at leas make sense to me personally.

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm certainly not endorsing or advocating for ToR's story. I'm simply saying that the idea to have the True Sith be the ultimate enemy wasn't an idea that ToR introduced and so can't really be called a retcon. It was actually something introduced in TSL and is well-established as a part of that game's ending narrative. It isn't even something that is heavily implied or left ambiguous (like the Kreia/Arren Kae connection), both Kreia and Sion flat out admit as much right before their deaths. All ToR did was expand and elaborate on what was actually said in TSL and the intentions that the devs had for K3. Now, if you guys want to ignore it or chalk it up to more of Kreia's manipulations or create a better story, then by all means.

[Ebony Moon 187]

I'm aware of what the Triumvirate says- of course they are going to say the Sith will continue to be a threat. They are Sith- which is an opening for a sequel, of course. But that doesn't address the many other parts that are inconsistent with K2. It doesn't matter what the devs intended. What I am saying that the retcon doesn't make sense.

This is about what we would like to see, not what the devs intended.

 

[Mutilator57 140]

1 minute ago, Ebony Moon said:

I'm aware of what the Triumvirate says- of course they are going to say the Sith will continue to be a threat. They are Sith- which is an opening for a sequel, of course. But that doesn't address the many other parts that are inconsistent with K2. It doesn't matter what the devs intended. What I am saying that the retcon doesn't make sense.

This is about what we would like to see, not what the devs intended.

 

So Sion and Kreia are lying? Ok, that could create an interesting basis for a hypothetical K3. Out of interest, what other inconsistencies have you picked up (other than Nihilus' hunger)? Your ideas for a new K3 story are very intriguing.

The only reason I brought up the devs is to refute the implicit argument that it was ToR/Revan novel that introduced these ideas. They didn't, they were present in TSL right from the beginning. Of course that doesn't matter if you're arguing that the evidence in TSL is either inconsistent or simple manipulations by the Triumvirate. 

[Ebony Moon 187]

3 hours ago, Mutilator57 said:

So Sion and Kreia are lying? Ok, that could create an interesting basis for a hypothetical K3. Out of interest, what other inconsistencies have you picked up (other than Nihilus' hunger)? Your ideas for a new K3 story are very intriguing.

The only reason I brought up the devs is to refute the implicit argument that it was ToR/Revan novel that introduced these ideas. They didn't, they were present in TSL right from the beginning. Of course that doesn't matter if you're arguing that the evidence in TSL is either inconsistent or simple manipulations by the Triumvirate. 

No, doesn't mean they are lying. Not at all. Even if there is a Sith Empire out there, it is almost irrelevant as a threat in the face of an even greater threat, which was even hinted at in K1.

Now I haven't finished my current game with the added cutscenes- I'm at Malachor, but I do remember what Sion does say in the vanilla. Do they say outright that there is a Sith Empire waiting to attack in the restored content? Do they say where Revan is and what Revan is doing? A lot of what they say is open for interpretation, unless the restored content says otherwise.

"A greater threat to come" is what I remember Sion saying. Very ominous if it was the enemy I thought at the time.

I had gotten the impression of another enemy entirely throughout both games, an enemy which would be more consistent. And, to be very honest, more impressive and interesting than yet more Jedi vs Sith. The Exile would excel against this one, considering Kreia's focus and training.

Unless they do say that the Sith Empire is a direct threat, one comment does not necessarily mean the other. 

Kreia: "There is a Sith Empire out there."

Sion: "The threat that is to come."

(I'm on mobile right now so I don't remember the exact quotes)

Unless the restored content ties the two together, the one comment does not necessarily mean the other, unless you are upholding what the devs have planned. Which I don't think Talyn intends with this mod. And neither does this make either Kreia or Soon liars.

 

 

[downloadman1 18]

2 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

No, doesn't mean they are lying. Not at all. Even if there is a Sith Empire out there, it is almost irrelevant as a threat in the face of an even greater threat, which was even hinted at in K1.

Now I haven't finished my current game with the added cutscenes- I'm at Malachor, but I do remember what Sion does say in the vanilla. Do they say outright that there is a Sith Empire waiting to attack in the restored content? Do they say where Revan is and what Revan is doing? A lot of what they say is open for interpretation, unless the restored content says otherwise.

"A greater threat to come" is what I remember Sion saying. Very ominous if it was the enemy I thought at the time.

I had gotten the impression of another enemy entirely throughout both games, an enemy which would be more consistent. And, to be very honest, more impressive and interesting than yet more Jedi vs Sith. The Exile would excell against this one, considering Kreia's focus and training.

@Mutilator57 Is correct. Plus Obsidian have said they were intending to make KOTOR 3 about the Exile going into the outer rim to find Revan and fight the "True" Sith Empire. This is what Chris Avellone the lead writer for Obsidian (at the time) said: 

“The third game involved you, as a player character, following where Revan went and then taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up. These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you'd be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like – they're the ancients, so they're not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy.

“So the places you travel to [you’d see] how they left their stamp on that world, or that solar system, or whatever collection of moons. You'd see how horrible that was. Part of that environment would tell a story about that. [That] would be a great, epic way to end the trilogy. The Old Republic are out there. We just didn't get a chance to do it.”

This is copied straight from the Wookieepedia page.  A link to the Wookieepedia page for the cancelled KOTOR 3 with a plot summary: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_3

TOR didn't create the idea of the hidden "True" Sith. TOR just changed the idea a bit so instead of it being a hidden empire, it was just random Sith emperor who was the best at everything. Also according to TOR this random emperor was manipulating Revan since the beginning of KOTOR 1 and Revan did actually fall to the dark side. KOTOR 2 told us that Revan never truly fell and was just trying to strengthen the galaxy because Revan knew there was a greater threat waiting for the right moment to strike. TOR is a fun game but Revan being manipulated the whole time basically destroys any plot ideas KOTOR 2 built

[Ebony Moon 187]

53 minutes ago, downloadman1 said:

@Mutilator57 Is correct. Plus Obsidian have said they were intending to make KOTOR 3 about the Exile going into the outer rim to find Revan and fight the "True" Sith Empire. This is what Chris Avellone the lead writer for Obsidian (at the time) said: 

“The third game involved you, as a player character, following where Revan went and then taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up. These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you'd be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like – they're the ancients, so they're not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy.

“So the places you travel to [you’d see] how they left their stamp on that world, or that solar system, or whatever collection of moons. You'd see how horrible that was. Part of that environment would tell a story about that. [That] would be a great, epic way to end the trilogy. The Old Republic are out there. We just didn't get a chance to do it.”

This is copied straight from the Wookieepedia page.  A link to the Wookieepedia page for the cancelled KOTOR 3 with a plot summary: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_3

TOR didn't create the idea of the hidden "True" Sith. TOR just changed the idea a bit so instead of it being a hidden empire, it was just random Sith emperor who was the best at everything. Also according to TOR this random emperor was manipulating Revan since the beginning of KOTOR 1 and Revan did actually fall to the dark side. KOTOR 2 told us that Revan never truly fell and was just trying to strengthen the galaxy because Revan knew there was a greater threat waiting for the right moment to strike. TOR is a fun game but Revan being manipulated the whole time basically destroys any plot ideas KOTOR 2 built

Yeah, that's a huge inconsistency that really undermines the entire game. That, and how the Exile is portrayed.

TBH, personally, I would been happy with K1 never having a sequel unless it was Revan Reborn conquering the galaxy or Revan the Prodigal Knight righting wrongs. I saw something about what Chris Avellone said- now don't get me wrong, I like the guy more than I do Karpyshin, and I do like playing K2, but I think  that K3 would miss the epic grandeur of the Tales of the Jedi and the first Kotor. It gets to the point that anything beyond Nihilus, you're basically summoning Cthulhu. Probably it was canceled because the celestials(?) Father, Son, Daughter was the end all be all of the Force for most mortals. Anything else beyond them is incomprehensible. Cosmic beings at certain point may not care about Light Side, Dark Side, etc. That's just my opinion, of course.

 

[narshaddaarocks 67]

14 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

Here's a rather scathing review about the retcon which does point out the inconsistencies 

http://theunion4ever.com/nerd-bucket/sbswa-old-republic-part-35/

LOL! I got a good laugh out of reading that. Like I didn't even remember Drew said Atris was Bastila's age. Like lol what? And I was also  reminded just how badly Drew screwed up Revan and Bastila reading that. Like did the guy forget he wrote K1?  

So Bastila was basically just watching TV while the events of K2 went down then? 

[Ebony Moon 187]

29 minutes ago, narshaddaarocks said:

LOL! I got a good laugh out of reading that. Like I didn't even remember Drew said Atris was Bastila's age. Like lol what? And I was also  reminded just how badly Drew screwed up Revan and Bastila reading that. Like did the guy forget he wrote K1?  

So Bastila was basically just watching TV while the events of K2 went down then? 

I know, right?  Here's my reaction 😂😂😂

I couldn't stop laughing reading that.

Here's my favorite part:  "The Emperor blasts Revan with so much Force lightning that his stupid mask superheats and starts melting onto his face."

That hurt, I bet! 😂😂😂

Bastila watching soap operas, yeah, omg. So how old is Atris in K2? 12? Isn't that kind of young for our male Exile?

Oh, something that reviewer probably wasn't aware of, probably because she didn't read Tales of the Jedi: The Golden Age of the Sith. Scourge is also not original. He's just another Ludo Kressh, who had opposed Naga Sadow, not wanting Sadow to provoke war which would destroy their people.  The Ludo Kressh whose tomb in which Kreia tests you on Korriban.

To be fair, about the Red Guard, Palpatine's Imperial Red Guard was based on an ancient Sith Order, so that wasn't out of place.

[Mutilator57 140]

14 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

"A greater threat to come" is what I remember Sion saying. Very ominous if it was the enemy I thought at the time.

I had gotten the impression of another enemy entirely throughout both games, an enemy which would be more consistent. And, to be very honest, more impressive and interesting than yet more Jedi vs Sith. The Exile would excel against this one, considering Kreia's focus and training.

Unless they do say that the Sith Empire is a direct threat, one comment does not necessarily mean the other. 

Kreia: "There is a Sith Empire out there."

Sion: "The threat that is to come."

(I'm on mobile right now so I don't remember the exact quotes)

Unless the restored content ties the two together, the one comment does not necessarily mean the other, unless you are upholding what the devs have planned. Which I don't think Talyn intends with this mod. And neither does this make either Kreia or Soon liars.

I don't mean to keep prodding you (trust me, not my intention!) but I am genuinely curious. How did you get that impression? In my 15 years of playing these games I never got that impression at all. I'm actually keen to discover if there's anything I'm missing. Why would the game make pointed and repeated references to the True Sith only for them to be irrelevant/be superseded by a different enemy? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

You're right, a lot of what is said is deliberately vague. Nevertheless, these references are why the only impression I ever got was that the ultimate enemy was the True Sith:

"She said that the teachings here (Malachor) will lead one to the Sith...the True Sith...and all of their shadowed worlds." 

"It because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the Sith wait for us, in the dark."

"It (Korriban), like Malachor, brushes the edges of the Empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it...for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

Yes, none of this is tantamount to a direct admission. Still, given all these references, I don't think the situation is as open to interpretation as you suggest.

14 hours ago, Ebony Moon said:

Now I haven't finished my current game with the added cutscenes- I'm at Malachor, but I do remember what Sion does say in the vanilla. Do they say outright that there is a Sith Empire waiting to attack in the restored content? Do they say where Revan is and what Revan is doing? A lot of what they say is open for interpretation, unless the restored content says otherwise.

Yes, they do. In vanilla actually.

"You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it in his own way."

"Even the small one - who waits for you outside this place - I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the True Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes." 

I get where you're coming from, I really do. I just think that trying to draw any other conclusion is very much straw-grasping. Sorry to keep posting but having put my thoughts out there, I feel perhaps duty-bound to defend them.

 

[Ebony Moon 187]

1 hour ago, Mutilator57 said:

I don't mean to keep prodding you (trust me, not my intention!) but I am genuinely curious. How did you get that impression? In my 15 years of playing these games I never got that impression at all. I'm actually keen to discover if there's anything I'm missing. Why would the game make pointed and repeated references to the True Sith only for them to be irrelevant/be superseded by a different enemy? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

You're right, a lot of what is said is deliberately vague. Nevertheless, these references are why the only impression I ever got was that the ultimate enemy was the True Sith:

"She said that the teachings here (Malachor) will lead one to the Sith...the True Sith...and all of their shadowed worlds." 

"It because Malachor, like Korriban, is on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the Sith wait for us, in the dark."

"It (Korriban), like Malachor, brushes the edges of the Empire that waits in the dark. And like Malachor, the Sith have forgotten it...for a time. They will remember. Revan knew this."

Yes, none of this is tantamount to a direct admission. Still, given all these references, I don't think the situation is as open to interpretation as you suggest.

Yes, they do. In vanilla actually.

"You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war was not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it in his own way."

"Even the small one - who waits for you outside this place - I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the True Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes." 

I get where you're coming from, I really do. I just think that trying to draw any other conclusion is very much straw-grasping. Sorry to keep posting but having put my thoughts out there, I feel perhaps duty-bound to defend them.

 

Yes, you're prodding . No, I am not straw grasping. 

First of all, you're talking about devs and guidelines and other things that ultimately don't matter here. This thread is about Talyn's mod.

Second, it has already been accepted here on this thread that there is a Sith Empire out there. How Talyn is going to interpret that for the purposes of the mod, is up to Talyn. And, yes, there is room for play. How much of a threat is it? Is it the only threat? It's not a terribly mind boggling thing to use imagination to see a degree of interpretation. Talyn just may decide to go with what Avellone had planned. The point is that this isn't going to be swotor's Sith Empire. 

If you read all of the comments here, it's already been given what parameters Talyn is going by. He isn't accepting swotor retcon. Talyn is favoring the Exile as the Exile was shortchanged in the swotor retcon. You keep bogging down this thread with the intentions of devs, ruling that certain things are just guidelines, or dictating what is retcon or not. In short, I don't think you are here because you are interested in Talyn's mod, you are here to argue points that are in the process of being hashed out or have been already addressed, or will be addressed. You aren't curious, you are concerned with being right, right about hounding down points which are not the focus of this thread- to quote duty-bound to defend them. 

I'm done with this. If you want to feel that you are right, go right ahead. All the points you have been drilling I don't care about, really. You've been wasting your time. I'm here to support Talyn's mod, not to score points in arguments or justify my views of what I've seen in the games.

[Troha 5]

On that note, I'm looking forward to this mod of yours Talyn!

[Mutilator57 140]

1 hour ago, Ebony Moon said:

Yes, you're prodding . No, I am not straw grasping. 

First of all, you're talking about devs and guidelines and other things that ultimately don't matter here. This thread is about Talyn's mod.

Second, it has already been accepted here on this thread that there is a Sith Empire out there. How Talyn is going to interpret that for the purposes of the mod, is up to Talyn. And, yes, there is room for play. How much of a threat is it? Is it the only threat? It's not a terribly mind boggling thing to use imagination to see a degree of interpretation. Talyn just may decide to go with what Avellone had planned. The point is that this isn't going to be swotor's Sith Empire. 

If you read all of the comments here, it's already been given what parameters Talyn is going by. He isn't accepting swotor retcon. Talyn is favoring the Exile as the Exile was shortchanged in the swotor retcon. You keep bogging down this thread with the intentions of devs, ruling that certain things are just guidelines, or dictating what is retcon or not. In short, I don't think you are here because you are interested in Talyn's mod, you are here to argue points that are in the process of being hashed out or have been already addressed, or will be addressed. You aren't curious, you are concerned with being right, right about hounding down points which are not the focus of this thread- to quote duty-bound to defend them. 

I'm done with this. If you want to feel that you are right, go right ahead. All the points you have been drilling I don't care about, really. You've been wasting your time. I'm here to support Talyn's mod, not to score points in arguments or justify my views of what I've seen in the games.

I think that's a pretty unfair (not to mention unnecessarily hostile) accusation to make; I've been entirely respectful. What's more is you're wrong. I ask these questions because I'm interested in Talyn's mod, because it is so different to the norm we've been fed. We've all seen so many ideas for a K3 but this is different and I like that. 

We all agree that ToR was a disaster and I am entirely interested to see the direction this goes. I think it is perfectly fair to ask how the mod will jive (if at all) with what we know from the games and what's been said since. If you want to impute impure motives go right ahead, but you'd be wrong.

As I've said twice now, it's his mod and he can do whatever he wants with it. In any event, I'm not here to argue. If I've upset anyone, sincerest apologies.

23 hours ago, Mutilator57 said:

If you think you've got a better basis for a new story, go for it.

On 9/5/2019 at 1:00 PM, Mutilator57 said:

But at the end of the day it's your mod. You include whatever you like!

[Ebony Moon 187]

34 minutes ago, Mutilator57 said:

I think that's a pretty unfair (not to mention unnecessarily hostile) accusation to make; I've been entirely respectful. What's more is you're wrong. I ask these questions because I'm interested in Talyn's mod, because it is so different to the norm we've been fed. We've all seen so many ideas for a K3 but this is different and I like that. 

We all agree that ToR was a disaster and I am entirely interested to see the direction this goes. I think it is perfectly fair to ask how the mod will jive (if at all) with what we know from the games and what's been said since. If you want to impute impure motives go right ahead, but you'd be wrong.

As I've said twice now, it's his mod and he can do whatever he wants with it. In any event, I'm not here to argue. If I've upset anyone, sincerest apologies.

ETA: deleted some unnecessary stuff. 

I think that the subject of what devs intended to do, or how we choose to interpret the game has been well covered. I'm not going to reply to any other posts in this vein. It's been detracting from this thread, and, yes, it's partly my blame as well. Thank you.

[Talyn82 84]

8 hours ago, Mutilator57 said:

I think that's a pretty unfair (not to mention unnecessarily hostile) accusation to make; I've been entirely respectful. What's more is you're wrong. I ask these questions because I'm interested in Talyn's mod, because it is so different to the norm we've been fed. We've all seen so many ideas for a K3 but this is different and I like that. 

We all agree that ToR was a disaster and I am entirely interested to see the direction this goes. I think it is perfectly fair to ask how the mod will jive (if at all) with what we know from the games and what's been said since. If you want to impute impure motives go right ahead, but you'd be wrong.

As I've said twice now, it's his mod and he can do whatever he wants with it. In any event, I'm not here to argue. If I've upset anyone, sincerest apologies.

Though it's been slow going because of the mod I've been replaying K2 with the restoration mod.  The mod was 99% percent influenced by what Kreia, Mandalore, Dorak, Vandar, Vrook, and Bastila have to say about Revan.  It was from them were I got my ideas.  Also Atton who was with the Sith since the Mandalorian wars.  I will also take what he says into account.

[Mutilator57 140]

1 hour ago, Talyn82 said:

Though it's been slow going because of the mod I've been replaying K2 with the restoration mod.  The mod was 99% percent influenced by what Kreia, Mandalore, Dorak, Vandar, Vrook, and Bastila have to say about Revan.  It was from them were I got my ideas.  Also Atton who was with the Sith since the Mandalorian wars.  I will also take what he says into account.

That's a pretty good selection of people. Most people heap endless praise onto Revan (especially Kreia) so it's good you've got a semi-critical influence in there as well to balance things out (I'm talking about Vrook of course!).

Have any of Atris' thoughts influenced your thinking too?

[Talyn82 84]

26 minutes ago, Mutilator57 said:

That's a pretty good selection of people. Most people heap endless praise onto Revan (especially Kreia) so it's good you've got a semi-critical influence in there as well to balance things out (I'm talking about Vrook of course!).

Have any of Atris' thoughts influenced your thinking too?

I like Atris a lot too.  But for the Exile I will take her into account as well as their companions and the Jedi Masters.  As for Vrook.  Vrook is a dick but like you said he is overly critical of both Revan and the Exile.  So I thought it would be good to use his input.  Kreia who is my favorite Star Wars character is a Revan's cheerleader.  Like you said she praises him.  I also forgot to mention for Revan I will also take into account Briana's accounts of her people's respect for him even while he slaughtered them.

[Ebony Moon 187]

If you want somewhat critical views of Revan, K1 has some sources as well. Master Zhar, for one. Or even some of the stuff Bastila says. Three's that cutscene of the Dantooine starmap which shows  a bit of the characters of Revan and Malak- I went by that for my interpretation of the two. 

Also, Revan did fall for the Jedi trap and underestimated Malak. That might mean he was over confident.

[Talyn82 84]

16 minutes ago, Ebony Moon said:

If you want somewhat critical views of Revan, K1 has some sources as well. Master Zhar, for one. Or even some of the stuff Bastila says. Three's that cutscene of the Dantooine starmap which shows  a bit of the characters of Revan and Malak- I went by that for my interpretation of the two. 

Also, Revan did fall for the Jedi trap and underestimated Malak. That might mean he was over confident.

That was part of what I liked about Revan that he was too overconfident and underestimated Malak as you say.  But then Kreia says things like him falling to the darkside was his sacrifice.  It makes me wonder if he had already planned that scenario of Malak betraying him.  Also I've always wondered did Revan really have amnesia or was he playing the Council all along?  I mean according to Kreia everything that has happened to Revan is of his own doing.  Whether you play darkside or lightside Revan, is he using the Council's and Republic's resources to strike back at Malak, knowing all along who he was?  In K1 it was always said how smart Revan was and how great of a strategist he was.  K2 improves upon that with Kreia hyping him up.  I love her but I swear she's Revan's number one cheerleader.  

 

[Sith Holocron 2,480]

1Leonard brought up an interesting point. I'm gonna take over from where he left off.

You've stated . . .

On 9/2/2019 at 10:04 PM, Talyn82 said:

I wrote the story except for dialogue back in 2005/2006. 

But it seems you're still playing through the restored content and still working out minutia like names of starships.  Leaving dialogue aside - and that's a big aside - what have you actually completed?  Because it doesn't seem like a lot is set in stone at the moment but you said that your story was written "back in 2005/2006."

On 9/3/2019 at 11:25 AM, Talyn82 said:

 So yeah the story is pretty much the same only the enemy has changed.

You've changed the antagonist and that's a small change.  Hmmm.

On 9/2/2019 at 10:04 PM, Talyn82 said:

A very big planet and three smaller planets.

But what have you done with this unnamed very big planet - or the three small planets?  Have you just wrote about it or have you done something tangible in the game?  If the latter, are these planets that you've cobbled together and plan to reskin - or just preexisting planets unchanged excepting a few reskin? 

There's a lot of questions that I'm asking here and it's a bit much.  I get that.  But before I get the title of "curmudgeon" (or worse) thrown at me, may I remind you that I didn't make this WIP thread.  I guess I personally am not seeing enough of a foundation here that justifies this thread at this point.

[Ebony Moon 187]

31 minutes ago, Talyn82 said:

That was part of what I liked about Revan that he was too overconfident and underestimated Malak as you say.  But then Kreia says things like him falling to the darkside was his sacrifice.  It makes me wonder if he had already planned that scenario of Malak betraying him.  Also I've always wondered did Revan really have amnesia or was he playing the Council all along?  I mean according to Kreia everything that has happened to Revan is of his own doing.  Whether you play darkside or lightside Revan, is he using the Council's and Republic's resources to strike back at Malak, knowing all along who he was?  In K1 it was always said how smart Revan was and how great of a strategist he was.  K2 improves upon that with Kreia hyping him up.  I love her but I swear she's Revan's number one cheerleader.  

 

Revan is pretty capable, but I don't think he was that much of a mastermind. There's something about Revan going through a time of weakness and amnesia that seems fitting. You talk with HK-47 after the big reveal, HK tells you, you aren't all what you once were, but in some way you are improved. 

When I write my fanfic (not that my fanfic is some great source about KOTOR lore) about Revan, he comes out with some rough edges before he was captured, but when he's Revan Reborn bent on conquering the galaxy, he has more polish and wisdom. It's kind of an initiation experience, if that makes sense. It's kind of like when you get the starmap below the oceans of Manaan, you can't actively use your Force powers, it's just you and how fast you can shoot the firaxin sharks- when the water makes you very slow. It's a lesson about power, you aren't going to be all powerful all the time, you are in fact, quite fragile in some ways, and it's your spirit, not the Force, that pulls you through.

Yeah, seriously the whole thing about the cheerleading about Revan. It irritates me a bit when the topic is about Revan in K2. I either grit my teeth before getting through some of the convo with HK-47 to unlock him, or get up and do something until Kreia is done trying to mess with Mandalore's mind. I've mentioned before that my DS Exile haaaaaaaates Revan,and to insult the image of Revan in Ludo Kressh's tomb is immensely satisfying to my Exile 😄

I love my Revan, ls or ds, but I keep him in perspective.

15 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

I guess I personally am not seeing enough of a foundation here that justifies this thread at this point.

Maybe a suggestion for Talyn of keeping a running log here?

[Talyn82 84]

10 minutes ago, Sith Holocron said:

1Leonard brought up an interesting point. I'm gonna take over from where he left off.

You've stated . . .

But it seems you're still playing through the restored content and still working out minutia like names of starships.  Leaving dialogue aside - and that's a big aside - what have you actually completed?  Because it doesn't seem like a lot is set in stone at the moment but you said that your story was written "back in 2005/2006."

You've changed the antagonist and that's a small change.  Hmmm.

But what have you done with this unnamed very big planet - or the three small planets?  Have you just wrote about it or have you done something tangible in the game?  If the latter, are these planets that you've cobbled together and plan to reskin - or just preexisting planets unchanged excepting a few reskin? 

There's a lot of questions that I'm asking here and it's a bit much.  I get that.  But before I get the title of "curmudgeon" (or worse) thrown at me, may I remind you that I didn't make this WIP thread.  I guess I personally am not seeing enough of a foundation here that justifies this thread at this point.

I welcome your questions I have thick skin you can keep them coming.  As to your questions.

Yes the story was created in 2005/2006 but do to crazy work schedule at the time I never started work on the mod until a year ago, when my life settled down.  Yes there are currently three planets done I know I said four but that was a mistake.  The planets done are from the Republic.  As for asking for a name of a Ship.  I've only asked for the name of one ship and it is Revan's ship.  There are more ships in my story and they already have names.  But since this will be a ship for the players version of Revan I wanted to know what people thought.  This mod will be my gift to the community so I value their input.  Yes I have penned the story but I am open to suggestions after all this is a WIP thread, so everyone is welcome to say their piece.

I have beaten TSL and K1 dozens of times in the past.  I first bought these games on original Xbox, then three different versions on PC.  But I have never completed TSL with the restored content mod.  As you are well aware of since you were the only person to reply.  I have had some issues running TSL on Win10.  But that was the GoG version I am now playing the Steam version and although progress has been slow, since I dedicate most of my time to both my job and the mod.  The game has been running smoothly so far.

The mod is not ready yet for dialogue I have added dummy dialogue in it's stead.  I am still in the process of populating the worlds with npc's and fauna. 

Yes the antagonist has been changed.  Like I said before back in the old LucasForums circa 2004/2005 the popular theory as to who the great enemy was.  The remnants of Naga Sadow's empire.  But after some discussion with a fellow forum member we came to the realization that if such an Empire did exist.  Like Miraluka before it, Nihilus' hunger would have driven him there for him to consume.  So we came up with a new better enemy, and yes the only major change is the enemy.  Revan and the Exile joining up to face them has always been apart of the story.  The bulk of the story is still there there have just been some tweaks to the story to accommodate the new enemy

What have I done with the big planet.  Well since I am no 3D artist I can't create new models nor will I ask anyone to do so.  But if they wish to contribute that is up to them.  But back to your question.  The planet is an existing planet with cobbled up modules.  Npc's have been changed.  The most time consuming part was coming up with what modules to use and where.  Then adding npc's to those modules.   I've been reading skinning tutorials so maybe I will do it myself.

No problem I understand your reservations and welcome any and all questions.  Now as to the point of this thread this is a WIP thread.  The thread is to announce the project, keep people up to date, and once I am satisfied  I will post screenshots possibly a vid to highlight some things.  In closing just let me say I am not Chris Avellone, I am but a mere fan of both KOTOR games and was not satisfied with the fates of our characters we know and love by EA BioWare and the Revan book.  So this will be my gift to modders like yourself and the fans who keep the memory alive.

 

58 minutes ago, Ebony Moon said:

Revan is pretty capable, but I don't think he was that much of a mastermind. There's something about Revan going through a time of weakness and amnesia that seems fitting. You talk with HK-47 after the big reveal, HK tells you, you aren't all what you once were, but in some way you are improved. 

When I write my fanfic (not that my fanfic is some great source about KOTOR lore) about Revan, he comes out with some rough edges before he was captured, but when he's Revan Reborn bent on conquering the galaxy, he has more polish and wisdom. It's kind of an initiation experience, if that makes sense. It's kind of like when you get the starmap below the oceans of Manaan, you can't actively use your Force powers, it's just you and how fast you can shoot the firaxin sharks- when the water makes you very slow. It's a lesson about power, you aren't going to be all powerful all the time, you are in fact, quite fragile in some ways, and it's your spirit, not the Force, that pulls you through.

Yeah, seriously the whole thing about the cheerleading about Revan. It irritates me a bit when the topic is about Revan in K2. I either grit my teeth before getting through some of the convo with HK-47 to unlock him, or get up and do something until Kreia is done trying to mess with Mandalore's mind. I've mentioned before that my DS Exile haaaaaaaates Revan,and to insult the image of Revan in Ludo Kressh's tomb is immensely satisfying to my Exile 😄

I love my Revan, ls or ds, but I keep him in perspective.

Yes I do remember now what HK47 tells Revan or what the clever Jedi Council chose to rename him as Raven after the reveal.  You make sense.  But it's just that K2 hyped up Revan to be this mythical figure who knows all before it happens.  That's why I was saying I think Revan knew exactly when Malak was going to betray him.  Cause everyone in K2 loves Revan except Sion, but that's why my favorite out of Revan and the Exile is the Exile.  Cause aside from easily creating Force bonds and being a Wound in the Force they're pretty much normal.  That's why in my mod when Revan gets beyond the edges of the galaxy were he is not known.  He will be nothing special.  Though the enemy remembers him.