Bug : A last word of caution... I would find out as much as you can

[ttlan 18]

101PER_dlg\101kreia.dlg

 

Original StrRef used : 134239 :

I would find out as much as you can about this place quickly - I fear we will need to depart as suddenly as we arrived.

 

Actual StrRef used : 74046 :

A last word of caution... I would find out as much as you can about this place quickly - I fear we will need to depart as suddenly as we arrived.

 

Why this modification ?

 

We are in conversation and nothing indicates that this conversation will end.

 

A so starting sentence makes no sense and does not continue the preceding sentence. This change seems unhappy. It would be preferable to restore the original dialogue option.

 

TTLan

[MrPhil 58]

What about the whole feeling that is given by Kreia, you know, that she is in a hurry to quit Peragus? It would be logical to assume she does not want to loose her time in idle conversation, and seek to end-it as soon as possible. Hence the "A last word of caution"

[ttlan 18]

Kreia is in a hurry, certainly, because she is prosecuted, not the Exile wich is, at this time, undetectable by Nihilus and Sion, due to her absence of link with the Force.

 

But Kreia has discovered, by chance, the Exile, the one she is studying and seeking for 9 years and who is the key to what she is trying to implement for years. She will not make a single mistake and not a single precipitation that could be faulty.

 

This dialogue option was avoided by Obsidian and it seems they were right (they are well placed to know). Not to mention that in terms of pure syntactic construction, this sequence is jarring.

[MrPhil 58]

Your'e kidding right? They all knew the Exile was a Jedi (take a look at Coorta's dialog, if you please) and there was a bounty on his head. What do you think of one of the Exile's reply to Kreia, when he/she says "Then I did not cover my tracks right." or something along these lines? No She was in a hurry, and wasn't trying to hide-it.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

No chance. There is no "chance" with the Force.

 

Atris leaked the Exile's information, and like all others, Kreia acted on that.

[MrPhil 58]

Atris what? Why would she do that? Conflict?

[Hassat Hunter 571]

To lure out Nihilus...

[Sith Holocron 2,472]

Atris what? Why would she do that? Conflict?

 

I recommend checking this thread which covers this a little: http://deadlystream.com/forum/topic/606-tsl-vanilla-plot-holes/

[ttlan 18]

I recommend checking this thread which covers this a little: http://deadlystream.com/forum/topic/606-tsl-vanilla-plot-holes/

 

I do not think we can still ask the question about Atris.

 

Yes, it is she who released the secret information from the Jedi archives, about the Exile. At the beginning of Kotor 2, everyone seeks the Exile.

 

The Republic

The Exchange

Revan thru old HK-50 programs

GoTo thru new HK-50 programs

The GenoHaradan (who gives the order ?)

Darth Traya

New Siths

 

But aboard the Harbinger, he does not seem that Sion acknowledges the Exile (even if he must be asked why Darth Traya stands between him and the other two).

 

Atris leaked the Exile's information, and like all others, Kreia acted on that.

 

It has been nine years since Kreia is looking for the Exile. She does not need the leak from the archives organized by Atris - she was the Archives keeper before Atris. In addition if, as I think, Kreia is Arren Kae, she knows the Exile and the Exile knows her (but does not recognize her). The Exile was a padawan of Vima Sunrider and Kavar on Dantooine and Coruscant when Arren Kae was the master of Revan. They have necessarily already encountered.

 

Kreia is victim of an attempted murder and is in the Ebon Hawk by accident, trying to escape her killers.

 

I still say that this beginning of a sentence, "A last word of caution...", sounds bad at that time (and from the simple point of view of the language, English or French).

 

I'm not obsessed with the use of all the sentences that still trail in dialog.tlk.

 

In particular, it is not because a sentence is longer than another that it is "better". This is not a good criterion of choice.

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Kreia is victim of an attempted murder and is in the Ebon Hawk by accident, trying to escape her killers.

You presume much.

 

What in the game tells you this?

[ttlan 18]

You presume much.

 

What in the game tells you this?

 

This is expounded at length on this page in French.

http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/histoire_recente_zoom_sur_la_derniere_semaine.html

 

A beginning translation of this page is here.

http://assiste.free.fr/kotor_2/recent_history_zoom_on_the_hours_that_just_preceed_the_begining_of_kotor_2.html

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Ah, the assination attempt was Nihilus and Sions? I doubt it's 4 days before Peragus though. Since they exiled her, stripped her of the Force. Does she appear in the beginning of the game like only 4 days earlier she no longer had any Force Powers?

It appears to be something that happened further in the past, unless you got specific examples which tell that it happened so early before the game...

T3-M4 capture HK-50 and led the Ebon Hawk to Péragus.

Whaaaaaaaaat? You really start making stuff up here.

The cargo of the Ebon Hawk is stored in the Peragus's security cargo.

"...a lot of cargo from the Jedi's freighter is being stored in the secure cargo hold until we can pass it through the quarantine checks."

Ergo, not all. To solve your other little qualm with TSLRCM.

This disrupts the plans of HK-50 who decides to part company with the Harbinger aboard the Ebon Hawk, which is supposed to be faster and stronger than a rescue capsule. There is a catch: the Ebon Hawk is heavily damaged and can only go to the nearest garage, on Peragus.

Actually, the Ebon Hawk could easily escape, wasn't it that it got shot by the Sith War Vessel upon leaving. And of course HK-50 didn't do that, but see the other thread.

Since 4 years, Revan has gone alone, after giving his last orders, in particular to Admiral Onasis and to Mandalore, his companions since Kotor 1, and to the droid G0-T0 (GoTo).

Goto was Telos' droid gone bad. Where at all would Revan have contact with him? Answer; not.

to obey the order he received from Revan:

Okay... seriously, what?

[ttlan 18]

Ah, the assination attempt was Nihilus and Sions? I doubt it's 4 days before Peragus though. Since they exiled her, stripped her of the Force.

 

Hello HH

 

No! Not you! Coming from a beginner, I can understand, but not from you!

 

I do not think it is useful to start a discussion on this if your first reference is to believe that Sion and Nihilus has exiled Kreia and cut her from the Force.

 

Since when the Sith know raising a lightwall?

 

Since when the Sith have compassion to one of them and exile him?

 

Since when do you believe to what Kreia says when she lies in order to be "adopted" by the Exile, trying to appear, with another speech, as a double exiled facing the Exile?

 

It is usually agreed by all that all speeches from Kreia are lies and that everything she says is false. You to believe that she always lie. I struggled enough to explain that this is not always true. It seems to me to be followed when I explain that Kreia only lies at the beginning of the adventure (and, precisely, about how she left Malachor).

 

The Sith kill, and that's that. From the time this evidence is acquired, we can begin to consider the speech of Kreia, from another angle, and not at the first degree.

 

TTLan

[ttlan 18]

Goto was Telos' droid gone bad. Where at all would Revan have contact with him?

 

The droid G0-T0 is part of a series produced by the company Aratech.

 

These special designs, superior intelligence, are built to assist the ithoriens in the terraforming project on Telos.

 

Shortly after being delivered to the ithoriens, he receives, no one knows from who, an order: "Save the Republic" (by stabilizing and developing its economy). I do not see who would give him such an order while, for now, his orders are to obey and assist Ithoriens and not to take initiatives regarding the Republic as a whole.

 

As written on my web pages, "I speculate" that this is an order from Revan to save the Republic because it is an obsession of Revan.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Everybody (especially HK) mentions how these Sith are different.

Taking a page from "What would Malak do?" as base for the actions of said Sith is a bad point of view.

 

Another question; Where does it state the order was giving after being delivered to the Ithorians? Because I am pretty sure the game states he got it from the start (it was his purpose), then he was send to Telos to assist there, as the Restoration Project was deemed vital to the success of the Republic.

[ttlan 18]

Everybody (especially HK) mentions how these Sith are different.

Taking a page from "What would Malak do?" as base for the actions of said Sith is a bad point of view.

 

 

Are you kidding?

 

The "New Siths", of Darth Revan, were formed from the archives of the "True Sith", found in the Trayus Academy, then, in 3960 BBY, by the transmission of instruction, from the Emperor to Revan. In 3959 BBY, they dig even deeper into the dark side, because of the Artifact "Stellar Forge". From 3959 BBY to 3956 BBY, it's "The Jedi Civil War", a series of massacres perpetrated by the "New Sith." In 3959 BBY Revan reopens the Academy on Korriban, and made train assassins. In 3958 BBY, Saul Karath obliterates the planet Telos. Some, within the "New Sith" (Atton is one of them) are specially trained to capture Jedi, which will be transformed into Sith embracing the dark side, thanks to the Trayus Nexus that Revan has made . The Jedi who resist are killed. In 3957 BBY, Darth Malak tries to kill Darth Revan (and Bastila Shan). From 3955 BBY to 3951 BBY is the "Sith Civil War" and the "First Jedi Purge" (This period is called "The Dark Wars"). "New Sith" kill each other savagely, for the succession of Revan. Arren Kae takes the nickname of "Darth Traya", takes control of "New Siths" and those legions of Sith assassins murder methodically the Jedi. (It is probably around 3955 BBY that Aratech manufactures G0-T0s (including GoTo)). In 3954 BBY, Revan left definitely after giving his orders. Darth Traya is at the head of legions of assassins - the "New Sith" are just murderers, pure murderers. They never did anything else than killing. They have never been anything but assassins in all directions. Only Revan had a strategy, that he never explained (become Emperor in place of the Emperor, in the Republic), in these stream of assassinations. In 3951 BBY, Nihilus and Sion have discovered that Darth Traya, who was studying a former Jedi since 9 years, is now seeking for her. She is looking for this ultra-powerful Jedi, to kill Nihilus, whose power and dangerousness are beginning to escape her. He is a wound in the Force and may destroy the Force by destroying the source of the Force: life (but the last masters believe that the Exile is the wound in the Force).

 

You think these killers, who are just that, who only know to do that, who have no global vision, no vision of a future, no strategy, no idea, will, suddenly, discover the compassion? If Sion will show a weird relationship with "His" master, Nihilus could not care less. He knows that it is his own death that is the goal (Kreia will say the danger of Nihilus (justifying the need to eliminate him): "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."), techniques she invented and taught and that she wants to see disappear with her own demise.

 

And "Yes", the "New Sith" are different from the "True Sith". They are different in their training since "Darth Traya" has taken power over them in 3954 BBY (we are talking of those who have powers, the Dark Jedi and Sith Lords, not the thousands of simple assassins): they kill by attacking the Force bonds: this is the teaching of Darth Traya, the fruit of years of study on the case of the Exile.

 

Yet, precisely, Darth Traya knows that the Exile will not be in danger, when she will face Darth Nihilus, because her bond to the Force is empty and that she has developed another form of connection to the Force (about which we know nothing).

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

If Kreia trained the Assassins in the ways of Nihilus, why does she explicitely state in the game that technique must die, together with the assassins? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

And yes, Sion and Nihilus do use tact, not brute force. It's not only because of Kreia. Everybody states that ingame.

 

It's a very nice theory, but unless I see some ingame proof, I am not going to believe that's how it all went down...

[ttlan 18]

Hello HH,

 

If Kreia trained the Assassins in the ways of Nihilus, why does she explicitly state in the game that technique must die, together with the assassins? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Because she has monopolized that army, after the departure of Revan, to pursue her first revenge: to destroy the Jedi order who had exiled her.

 

Now that the Jedi order is destroyed, essentially through the morbid power of Nihilus, behold the power of Nihilus is out of control.

 

Arren Kae never wanted to destroy the Force nor Life. She wants to prove she was right at the time of her controversial teachings at the Academy of Coruscant. For her to prove it there must have an audience. In addition, she speaks herself of those who will follow in the future. Arren Kae is not "No Future", not at all.

 

She even has some hints of pride when she speaks of the education that she provided them:

 

“The less said of that one, the better - even a stray thought may draw him, and it is possible that he cannot be defeated.” - “He is one who has learned the greatest of the Sith teachings - and it enslaved him. Until you are ready, we must not seek him out.”

 

And YES ! Kreia trained the Assassins in the ways of Nihilus

 

“I believe them to be the result of... special teachings. Their apparent weakness against you is evidence of this.”

“Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. {Distasteful}They feed... and grow stronger... when they are near Force Sensitives.”

“{Sighs}The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become. As long as you were cut off from it, you were able to evade their sight.”

“But after Peragus, I fear that you will be no longer shielded from their eyes or the eyes of their masters. The stronger you grow, the more will come.”

 

 

So the study of the Exile is over. What she needs now is the Exile herself to stop Nihilus.

 

Arren Kae (Darth Traya) is not at all a purely dark character, as Darth Nihilus or Darth Sion are. She is an infinitely intelligent person, who has accepted hard stuffs, like the murder of her lover by her beloved pupil, Revan.

 

She is neutral, a reflection of her teaching which is unified.

 

One quickly learns that the Jedi code does not give all the answers. If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea.

 

Once there were only Jedi. I wonder what "evil" was in such days.

 

And to think, once there were no Jedi at all. Perhaps the Force defies such rigid classification of its followers.

 

She chose her path: train the Exile to a unified technical, that she has always advocated, and then remove all traces of teaching purely anti-Jedi (Sith education) after removing all traces of Jedi teaching. Both ways will be extinguished. There will only be the Force without nobody knowing how to manipulate it in the form of "Force powers", and no one to pass ancient teachings (except the Exile with this new teaching she has lavished to herself). And, for the risk of transmission is really over, she decided long ago that she must disappear too.

 

She did not teach that technique to the Exile. That technique must die and the better way, the only way is that she must die once all the over ones are died. And like in any good transmission line in martial arts, still today, the teacher asks the student to overtake him (by killing her in that special case), which has nothing to do with the student becoming strong killing the master becoming weak, in the Sith Order.

 

It was not a real training, but to guide the Exile so that she trained herself.

 

You are more precious than you know; what you have taught yourself cannot be allowed to die.

 

____________________________________

 

And yes, Sion and Nihilus do use tact, not brute force. It's not only because of Kreia. Everybody states that ingame.

 

No? No kidding?

 

Tact ? You mean tactics, Arren Kae's tactics !

 

The game speaks only of the drama of Katarr and the methodical murder of a hundred Jedi remained after Katarr.

 

It's tactful!

 

This period is called "The Jedi purge"!

 

It's tactful!

 

You think Darth Sion set off in pursuit of Darth Traya after having exiled her, months or years ago, instead of set off in pursuit of her when she escapes the Trayus Academy? Why? Why wait? Is there any reason?

 

He would be even more stupid than I thought! And as I think he was "Lucien Draay" he is not exactly stupid (it’s not the place to discuss about that and what John Jackson Miller wrote).

 

Do you think what kreia shows us here happened long ago ?

 

 

And I did not know that it was how one raised a lightwall.

 

 

I did not know that it was how one pronounced the exile of someone.

 

 

 

No, he set off in pursuit of Darth Traya immediately because they are trying to kill her and Sion will tell her :

 

"After all that has happened, still you live. You are difficult to kill."

 

You were a fool to return. I spared you once, I will not do so again.

 

 

The curious relationship that Sion will show at the end, with Kreia, "His Master" (with a notion of personal property) makes me wonder about the mental health of Sion and if, as I think, he is Lucien Draay, I wonder if he does not look at his mother, Krynda Draay, whom he adored and venerated, through Arren Kae.

 

Timing

As the Exile received her first dose of drug on board the Harbinger, 3.5 days ago (log on the medical console of the Harbinger) and the Ebon Hawk arrived on Peragus 3 days ago (log 253-12), with the Exile on board the Ebon Hawk, the transfer of the Exile from the Harbinger to the Ebon Hawk has taken place in this half-day. So the pursuit of the Ebon Hawk by Sion held there about 3.5 days to 4 days ago etc. ...

 

The Ebon Hawk, followed by the Sion's ship, are moving from Malachor V to Peragus.

The Harbinger is moving from somewhere near Onderon to the Ebon Hawk (near Peragus)

Peragus is quite in the middle of these two points of origin.

 

 

Kreia was aboard the Ebon Hawk.

The Sith jump aboard the Ebon Hawk.

Kreia kills many (the logs speak of deaths all over the Ebon Hawk).

She plays dead by entering into cataleptic state to escape the massacre.

T3-M4 do a distress calls somewhere during these events.

HK-50 program the failure of all the systems of the Harbinger. He wants to escape when they will be nearer Nar Shaddaa.

The Ebon Hawk is "captured" and is docked in the the Harbinger.

The Sith, invisible inside the Ebon Hawk, jump from the Ebon Hawk and invade the Harbinger.

Sion is brought to the hospital by the staff of the the Harbinger. A purposely fact or was he really injured (by Kreia?)?

The Harbinger staff leaves the "Kreia's body" in the Ebon Hawk.

The Sith kill the Harbinger's staff, and take control of it. Sion has a new ship, but with all systems in a failure state. That's why he will arrive a little late (3 days later) at Peragus.

Kreia is still in catalepsy aboard the Ebon Hawk.

HK-50 carries the Exile in the Ebon Hawk and fled.

T3-M4 managed to confine HK-50 in the cargo hold (probably by surprise, without a fight).

T3-M4 program the astrogation of the Ebon Hawk to Peragus.

The Ebon Hawk goes to Peragus automaticaly.

HK-50 managed to escape the cargo hold of the Ebon Hawk (end of the prologue). He takes control of the Ebon Hawk. He will be the only contact of the Peragus staff.

Kreia is still in catalepsy aboard the Ebon Hawk.

Etc. ...

 

TTLan

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

While I understood only half of it, I have to say for once I partially agree with you ttlan. Both with the original post and partially with Kreia's exile.

 

The only thing is that it's hard to tell exactly when Kreia was overthrown by Nihilus and Sion - it could have been shortly before the events of the game, it could have happened a few years before.

[ttlan 18]

Hello VP

 

While I understood only half of it, I have to say for once I partially agree with you ttlan. Both with the original post and partially with Kreia's exile.

 

The only thing is that it is hard to tell exactly when Kreia was overthrown by Nihilus and Sion - it could have been shortly before the events of the game, it could have happened a few years before.

 

 

Believe that I am ashamed of not having better English.

 

However, if I may say something for my defense: what level, in French, have those who assassinate me for my English, and does not consider the effort that I do, to communicate with you?

 

I could stay in my ivory tower, with my website that appears in the second or third line of the first page of Google when searching "Kotor 2". The Francophone community is huge on this game. I explain the mind and the reading at second value of this wonderful work of Obsidian. I am appalled by the reading at face value that is done by many, quite all, 7 years after its release.

 

Kotor 2 is a book of hidden content, hard to understand. Very difficult, it seems.

On the other hand, I fully understand that I may offend some, in the TSLRCM team, when I say that there is a bug in how TSLRCM interprets the mind of Kotor 2 (I am not talking about small technical bugs) and that this does not lead some to watch a good eye what I say.

 

 

 

The Dark Wars

 

Let us talk about the beginning of Kotor 2. What happen in the hours before Kotor 2?

 

We will know much more (I hope) with the book "Revan", from Drew Karpyshyn, due out at the same time as the launch of TOR. It covers the period 3955 BBY to 3950 BBY.

 

This period is called "The dark wars" (I am not sure this is official and I have no confidence at all in what Wookieepedia says. But I do not have all the books.)

 

 

 

3955 BBY - beginning of the Sith Civil War

 

During 3955 BBY, after the death of Malak in the battle of Rakata Prime, begins the Sith Civil War. Several Sith Lords are fighting to share or lead the remains of the legions of Revan.

 

105086 :

There are many factions within the Sith, all seeking to take what little remains in the wake of the Jedi Civil War.

 

I think that, as long as Revan is still in the Republican Space, Arren Kae does not move. Revan is probably visiting her many times on Malachor.

 

During 3954 BBY, Revan leaves definitely.

 

 

 

2 years for the training. 2 years for the Jedi Purge.

 

I think that, from 3954 BBY to 3953 BBY, Arren Kae becomes Darth Traya, takes full control of all New Sith, unites the clans, put an end to the Sith Civil War and train the Sith.

 

 

 

Circa end 3953 BBY / beginning 3952 BBY - End of the Sith Civil War. Beginning of the Jedi Purge.

 

The Jedi Purge begins. "New Sith" breaking over on the "Jedi Order". During 3952 BBY take place the drama of Katarr. So Darth Traya is still the Darth Lord of the Sith in 3952 BBY.

 

Then there is the systematic murder of the last hundred Jedi. This should take some time to look at them one by one. This leads us in 3951 BBY and she is still the Darth Lord of the Sith. Think that, when we discover Vrook, for example, in 3951 BBY, during Kotor 2, he has just arrived a few days before only.

 

As Sion said, all the Jedi are dead except one. They do not know at all that it is left five, which hide in unlikely places.

 

 

 

3951 BBY - End of the Jedi purge.

 

At this point, Arren Kae realizes that the power of Nihilus is out of control. She gets scared of the horror she has implemented.

 

She starts looking for the Exile in order to destroy Nihilus and everyone to whom she has taught this new power.

 

And... Sion and Nihilus have no other choice, because she is immensely powerful and could eliminate them all. So ... they must kill her.

 

In addition, believing that "New Sith, " which, to prove to themselves that they are great evil very strong, stronger than the "True Sith" that tried to manipulate them, would be capable of tact and compassion (rise a lightwall and exil Arren Kae) is a view of the mind.

 

When Sith Lords unite against another Sith Lord, this is not to bow and scrape, with tact and compassion. It is to kill and take his place. How can we believe that in the Sith Universe, we can have compassion for those who seek to kill you! How can we read Kotor 2 first value? There is not one word in Kotor 2, which can be taken at face value. How can we affirm constantly, that Kreia is a liar, and simultaneously say that when she claims to have been exiled, she is not lying?

 

We are already in 3951 BBY.

 

 

 

This is the beginning of Kotor 2.

 

Sion and Nihilus, allied for the occasion, try to kill her about 4 days before the beginning of Kotor 2.

 

It was by chance that Arren Kae and the Exile are next one the other.

 

As chance would have it.

 

Yes, data on the Exile became public, and Sion is certainly aware. However, when Arren Kae leaves Malachor, she is not seeking for the Exile, she tries to stay alive.

 

Fluke. T3 comes back in Republican space just at that moment. He did not find Bastila because Onasi hides her. He did not found any Jedi - they are over! He began to search for the master of his master. He certainly had the opportunity to know her, from the return of "Rakata Prime" to the final departure of Revan, about a year later. He recovered her just as she flees the Academy (I do not think she would climb aboard the Ebon Hawk in other conditions because she hates droids.).

 

 

TTLan

Edited May 14, 2011 by ttlan