Carth Force-sensitive?

[milestails 264]

I am really warming up to the idea that Carth is Force-sensitive. After looking through the readme for Allronix's Carth's Secret, I cannot dispute the logic Allronix uses to make the case for Carth as a Jedi. Here is Allronix's reasoning:

 

1) The man's intuition is scarily good. He was the only one who suspected something was up with the PC. Paranoia had something to do with it, but even when he ditched most of the trust issues, he was still sensing something amiss. He was also dead-on in his last conversation with Revan in saying that a permanent choice had to be made. When Revan makes a final LS choice, he stammers out that "I told you you would have to make a choice soon - and that was it, I can feel it" with the same conviction of Leia telling Han that Luke was okay after Death Star 2 went up.

2) He has strange luck - maybe too strange. If retcon's your friend, this man's stumbled into not only one, but TWO Jedi cover-ups. Granted, he only ran across Zayne in passing, but he gets hip-deep when it comes to Revan. And just what are the odds of getting to the last escape pod, sharing it with an amnesiac Sith Lord, crashing on an occupied planet, grabbing your odd companion and just happening to find a dump of an apartment where the landlord's not asking questions? 

3) Ajunta Pall. According to the D20 system the game was based on, one has to have a modicum of Force sensitivity to see a Force ghost. It takes slightly more than that to understand what it's saying. HK-47 and Carth are the only non-Jedi party members who make any note of Pall's presence. HK-47 only comments that Pall shows up on his sensors as a strange reading. Carth can not only hear Ajunta Pall, but understand what the ghost is saying. 

4) Kreia's comment about Telos in K2. Telos was a place where Jedi dumped Force Sensitives who were not suited to the Order, and that the colony is descended from those. She also implied heavily that Revan planned to take the planet for that reason, and that Malak missed the point when he bombed it into ash. We know Dustil is among the Force Sensitive, and that Carth is native to Telos.

 

Thoughts?

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

Counter Point:

1 and 2) All those could be coincidences

3) The Ajunta Pall thing could have been a designer oversight

4) Purely circumstantial

 

Plus if he was a force user, obviously he would be using a lightsaber.

 

 

But seriously, it seems like a good enough case. 

[djnugent 34]

I have to disagree with VP - taken one at a time, each of those things is very circumstantial and easily written off. Taken as a whole, it starts to paint a much more consistent picture following an increasing pattern - ESPECIALLY considering #4, which totally went right over my head.

 

Considering Dustil was obviously force-sensitive (pretty strongly too, if I remember correctly), it would make sense for Carth to have some kind of subconscious low-level force connection. Superb piloting and intuition instincts, recognizing galactic-history altering trigger events, and somehow being in the right place at the right time would all be much easier to explain if Carth had a spark of Force intuition, but not enough to actually do anything with.

 

To me, it feels like seeds to a plot-line that just never panned out or didn't have time for. I'm betting it was the start of what eventually became the "Sweet-talk them enough they spontaneously become Jedi who do you every bidding" influence system in TSL.

 

 

Or maybe it would have been KOTOR3 - The Carth Awakens

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

Maybe my contextual sarcasm wasn't that obvious?

 

Seems like a good theory that Carth is somewhat force-sensitive.

[Haveayap 127]

I have to disagree with VP - taken one at a time, each of those things is very circumstantial and easily written off. Taken as a whole, it starts to paint a much more consistent picture following an increasing pattern - ESPECIALLY considering #4, which totally went right over my head.

 

Considering Dustil was obviously force-sensitive (pretty strongly too, if I remember correctly), it would make sense for Carth to have some kind of subconscious low-level force connection. Superb piloting and intuition instincts, recognizing galactic-history altering trigger events, and somehow being in the right place at the right time would all be much easier to explain if Carth had a spark of Force intuition, but not enough to actually do anything with.

 

To me, it feels like seeds to a plot-line that just never panned out or didn't have time for. I'm betting it was the start of what eventually became the "Sweet-talk them enough they spontaneously become Jedi who do you every bidding" influence system in TSL.

 

 

Or maybe it would have been KOTOR3 - The Carth Awakens

Agh but you see in SW there are no such things as circumstances. There is only the force. And carth is obviously superior too your avg. Pilot

[jc2 581]

Agh but you see in SW there are no such things as circumstances. There is only the force. And carth is obviously superior too your avg. Pilot

Yeah, I think he was force sensitive. You don't have to be a jedi to be force sensitive. Just like Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker, Carth was one of the best pilots of the Old Republic, according to Bastila, Jedi Council members, Revan, and several other characters. 

[N-DReW25 1,341]

I personally like to think that his Wife was force sensitive as it makes logical sense as to why Dustil was force sensitive and not Carth.

[jc2 581]

I personally like to think that his Wife was force sensitive as it makes logical sense as to why Dustil was force sensitive and not Carth.

Fair point, but a question is begged whether he once was a rejected jedi youngling who was banished to Telos, similar to what almost happened to Obi-Wan in the Legends. 

[134340Goat 116]

I was considering starting the thread myself in the subreddit, but I figured three in three days was too much. And now here we are

 

I'll just be lazy and restate what's not listed in there, that being that aside from just getting lucky, it's emphasized several times how what normal folks call luck, Jedi will call "the will of the Force" or just deny such things as coincidences. So it's a pretty strange set of lucky coincidences then, that Carth not only drags your unconscious body to an apartment that no one cares to look into, but also one that's just a street away from a Republic-sympathizing doctor, a decent store, and a cantina where you can make money without using your name - all while the Sith are actively searching for escape pods while they overthrow the government

 

Then look at Kotor II if Revan's set as light side female. He mentions something about just "knowing" she's still out there and not dead, and he would feel it if she had died. Implying that some kind of unintentional Force bond had been made

 

And, if you wanna take actual game design oversights into account, he's psychic, judging by the fact that he can discuss your talk with the Jedi Council before you've had it

[Eauxps I. Fourgott 81]

So it's a pretty strange set of lucky coincidences then, that Carth not only drags your unconscious body to an apartment that no one cares to look into, but also one that's just a street away from a Republic-sympathizing doctor, a decent store, and a cantina where you can make money without using your name 

 

Now I feel like we're getting a bit too far into the realm of stuff that was necessary to make the game good, rather than stuff that is really good support for the theory.

[milestails 264]

Liking the discussion so far. I think we can all agree that this has given Allronix's mod some new life.

[134340Goat 116]

Now I feel like we're getting a bit too far into the realm of stuff that was necessary to make the game good, rather than stuff that is really good support for the theory.

You could change the story circumstances without changing the game at all, though

 

The doctor could be a Sith-allied asshat who begrudgingly helps you

 

The store owner could be stuck-up and stingy

 

The cantina dueling ring could be considered a risk to your identity

 

Exact same gameplay purposes, different execution, different take on the "Jedi Carth" theory

[Ebony Moon 187]

I always have seen Carth as at least a little Force sensitive, for many of the reasons listed.

 

I played Redhawke's mod for Jedi Carth and it just seemed so natural, where it was kind of strange for Mission and Canderous-  the other two of Redhawke's turn 'em into Jedi mods.

[milestails 264]

I always have seen Carth as at least a little Force sensitive, for many of the reasons listed.

 

I played Redhawke's mod for Jedi Carth and it just seemed so natural, where it was kind of strange for Mission and Canderous-  the other two of Redhawke's turn 'em into Jedi mods.

 

Allronix made her mod in response to RedHawke's mod actually. Quote:

 

I mean no offense to RedHawke. It's an intriguing idea, but something about his mod didn't quite "click" with me. So, I've done a little tweaking of my own. If you want to convert him early in the game, use the original mod. This is designed to cross-class Carth 1/2-3/4 through the game. 

 

As for the class, I placed him as a Sentinel. He is ill-suited to Consular. He'll cheerfully leave the diplomacy to his favorite spy. (The one Lady Exile finds on Dantooine). Guardian may coordinate well with his feats, but the Sentinel's job of "ferreting out deceit and injustice," and their balance between combat and problem-solving very much fit Carth's nature and backstory. 

 

At first, I saw RedHawke's mod and thought "Yeah, right." As much fun as his Mission-Jedi mod is, and as much fun the one game with his Canderous-Sith was, I really can't see them as Force-sensitive.

[Ebony Moon 187]

Allronix made her mod in response to RedHawke's mod actually. Quote:

 

I mean no offense to RedHawke. It's an intriguing idea, but something about his mod didn't quite "click" with me. So, I've done a little tweaking of my own. If you want to convert him early in the game, use the original mod. This is designed to cross-class Carth 1/2-3/4 through the game. 

 

As for the class, I placed him as a Sentinel. He is ill-suited to Consular. He'll cheerfully leave the diplomacy to his favorite spy. (The one Lady Exile finds on Dantooine). Guardian may coordinate well with his feats, but the Sentinel's job of "ferreting out deceit and injustice," and their balance between combat and problem-solving very much fit Carth's nature and backstory. 

 

At first, I saw RedHawke's mod and thought "Yeah, right." As much fun as his Mission-Jedi mod is, and as much fun the one game with his Canderous-Sith was, I really can't see them as Force-sensitive.

I do like Redhawke's mod, because it is an early Jedi Carth, and he did work out rather well as a Guardian, and to me Guardian seems to fit his character. He's a bit on the honest and open side, especially considering how he never suspected that Admiral Karath would turn on the Republic, and how he expects openness and honesty from others, particularly your character. He never really struck me as someone truly adept in ferreting out stuff, he's more of a good soldier type who happens to be a hotshot pilot.

 

I tend to pick up Jolee late in the game, especially with my DS Revan, too.

 

Canderous as a dark Jedi is an odd concept, but he looks really wicked in that master Sith armor and kicks butt with a double bladed red lightsaber, lol.

[Haveayap 127]

I will be honest. I could see mission potentially being force sensitive. She picks up on skills quickly and learnt the wookie language (which is impressive). Shes also only 14 (i think) and she holds her own with revan, bastila, jolee, carth and canderious once she joins them which is no mean feat (considering revan and bastilas power with the force and carths and canderious exceptional battle skills and experiance).

[djnugent 34]

Agh but you see in SW there are no such things as circumstances. There is only the force. And carth is obviously superior too your avg. Pilot

 

Good, point, I have 1 counter - Wedge Antilles, of which most of the ...(sigh).... Legends series seemed to do a very careful job of making sure that everybody knew that there was no "Force" intuition guiding him, he was just that kick-ass of a pilot.

 - In fact, Corran Horn was supposed to be this ridiculous pilot with his Force sensitivity and what-not, and he still wasn't quite up there with Wedge.

 

 

I personally like to think that his Wife was force sensitive as it makes logical sense as to why Dustil was force sensitive and not Carth.

 

That's not a bad idea, either - if Carth was even a hair Force-sensitive, it would help demonstrate why Carth seems to be drawn to other Force Sensitives. 

 

 

Maybe my contextual sarcasm wasn't that obvious?

 

Seems like a good theory that Carth is somewhat force-sensitive.

 

:-) 

[Lawkmt3 17]

According to the game, the Force is in all living things. Since Carth is alive most of the game, (and after if you don't kill him) he would have some connection to the Living Force. That said, I don't believe him to be capable of Conscious Force use. In other words, I'd never see him as a Jedi. Enhanced perception, higher than average reflexes, and that 'luck' he has is all part of his connection to the Force. There are literally planets and species entirely populated by FS people. Mace Windu's people were all FS. So would I say Carth is FS? Absolutely! But his connection is like white noise always there, but you can't make it out. Does he use this connection? All the time, but he doesn't know it. I'll bet after being surrounded by Jedi so long he'd figure it out, but he'd never be able to develop more than he already is.