Star Wars Episode VII Discussion (MASSIVE SPOILERS)

[milestails 264]

How about Palpatine and Snoke's themes being quite similar?

 

http://padme4president.tumblr.com/post/135471350005/if-youve-already-seen-the-force-awakens-and-you

[1Leonard 134]

How about Palpatine and Snoke's themes being quite similar?

 

http://padme4president.tumblr.com/post/135471350005/if-youve-already-seen-the-force-awakens-and-you

Same thematic roles, perhaps.

 

Doesn't immediately mean they're physically related.

[milestails 264]

How about no Disney title screen?

 

In the past, we had 20th Century Fox.

[Box 8]

The superweapon in The Force Awakens doesn't work because it's completely unnecessary and there's no buildup to it. You think the purpose of the First Order's actions are to find Luke Skywalker before the Resistance does. It's not really explained why in detail, but it's enough to go on for a while. Then they introduce "the weapon" out of nowhere and soon after the new Republic is destroyed before we ever knew who they were or how and why they fit into the picture. And then suddenly the movie is about destoying the Starkiller and saving Rey instead of anything the first hour was building up to.

 

In the original Star Wars, the Death Star is central to the entire plot from beginning to end.

[Doctor Evil 51]

The superweapon in The Force Awakens doesn't work because it's completely unnecessary and there's no buildup to it. You think the purpose of the First Order's actions are to find Luke Skywalker before the Resistance does. It's not really explained why in detail, but it's enough to go on for a while. Then they introduce "the weapon" out of nowhere and soon after the new Republic is destroyed before we ever knew who they were or how and why they fit into the picture. And then suddenly the movie is about destoying the Starkiller and saving Rey instead of anything the first hour was building up to.

 

In the original Star Wars, the Death Star is central to the entire plot from beginning to end.

 

The movie actually turned to saving Rey, rather... And the New Republic was formed from what was the Rebellion in the first movie. I don't think that they were entirely destroyed but who knows. Starkiller base was slowly built up to it, just because it wasn't the central point doesn't mean it wasn't important to the plot

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Someone mentioned not understanding ANH's plot. That's weird... the whole movie revolves around the Death Star (it's plans need to get to the rebellion remember). The plans end up with Luke, and he takes them to the rebellion, the rebels take it out. I'm not quite sure what's confusing about that.

 

And much as above poster says that the superweapon WASN'T part of the plot and shoe-horned in helps making it feel tacked on (since, well, it's tacked on). They could have *easily* gone with both bad guys and good guys find Luke's location, big battle ensues over arriving first... all the "superweapon planet" stuff could have been moved to a spaceship above Luke's planet. Bam... would fit in the plot, and most probably would be 300% better. Sure, saving someone from a ship *again* could be seen as repeating ANH again... but well... it would have suited the movie more than the current predicament.

 

Heck, they could have copied over the Telos Revisited section of KOTOR2 entirely and I'd be happy. Not "suuuudenly... SUPERWEAPON! Who's that Luke?"

[Mutilator57 140]

The entire premise of trashing the EU was to remove the shackles and story restrictions that this imposed on the new trilogy. If they used that opportunity to make a movie which was effectively a rehash of another classic, with parralels, allusions and references as far as the eye can see then I think it's safe to say that they played it *too* safe and I would venture to say, wasted the opportunity. 

 

Again, TFA is not a bad movie. IMO, the super weapon has been rehashed one to many times... It was fine in Ep. 4 and 6, but ep. 7 should have gone with something new

 

Nail on the head, although I felt even in ROTJ it was stretching it a little thin. They got around this however, by revolving the story around not the super weapon but around Luke, his father and the Emperor.

 

The superweapon in The Force Awakens doesn't work because it's completely unnecessary and there's no buildup to it. You think the purpose of the First Order's actions are to find Luke Skywalker before the Resistance does. It's not really explained why in detail, but it's enough to go on for a while. Then they introduce "the weapon" out of nowhere and soon after the new Republic is destroyed before we ever knew who they were or how and why they fit into the picture. And then suddenly the movie is about destoying the Starkiller and saving Rey instead of anything the first hour was building up to.

 

In the original Star Wars, the Death Star is central to the entire plot from beginning to end.

 

Exactly. I had no emotional involvement in the Republic's (demise?). While were on it too, what was the purpose of differentiating the Resistance and Republic - had me scratching my head the entire movie.

[Box 8]

The movie actually turned to saving Rey, rather... And the New Republic was formed from what was the Rebellion in the first movie. I don't think that they were entirely destroyed but who knows. Starkiller base was slowly built up to it, just because it wasn't the central point doesn't mean it wasn't important to the plot

 

Well, I only saw this thing once so I may have missed something but I'm pretty sure that nothing that happens on Jakku or prior has anything to do with the First Order's plan to destroy the new Republic with the Starkiller.

[Doctor Evil 51]

The entire premise of trashing the EU was to remove the shackles and story restrictions that this imposed on the new trilogy. If they used that opportunity to make a movie which was effectively a rehash of another classic, with parralels, allusions and references as far as the eye can see then I think it's safe to say that they played it *too* safe and I would venture to say, wasted the opportunity. 

 

Considering how Star Wars fans can get extremely critical of anything it was pretty clear they'd play this one safe since it was their first entry into the saga

 

Nail on the head, although I felt even in ROTJ it was stretching it a little thin. They got around this however, by revolving the story around not the super weapon but around Luke, his father and the Emperor.

 

The movie wasn't necessarily about the superweapon either, it was about locating luke. Starkiller merely was the place where Rey was being held, and it wasn't discovered until half-way through the movie

 

Exactly. I had no emotional involvement in the Republic's (demise?). While were on it too, what was the purpose of differentiating the Resistance and Republic - had me scratching my head the entire movie.

 

Perhaps the Republic became complacent and the Resistance was a disgruntled faction within that wanted to take action? Who knows, the answers will probably be revealed in 8, or most likely in 9

[Box 8]

 

Exactly. I had no emotional involvement in the Republic's (demise?). While were on it too, what was the purpose of differentiating the Resistance and Republic - had me scratching my head the entire movie.

 

I heard after watching that the Rebellion was split after the Emperor was defeated. The new Republic made peace with the Empire while the Resistance wanted to continue to fight until the Empire was destroyed. However, the new Republic covertly assists the Resistance. It explains why the Resistance is so weak and why the First Order wanted to destroy the Republic despite not being at war with them. However, none of this explanation is in the movie and I'm not even sure if it's canon or someone's theory since I heard it secondhand.

[Mutilator57 140]

Considering how Star Wars fans can get extremely critical of anything it was pretty clear they'd play this one safe since it was their first entry into the saga.

 

But don't you see that is the problem? They played it so safe that they ended up creating effectively a clone. By the way I reject wholeheartedly your typecasting of SW fans. We're not critical of everything, we just expect that when you throw out over 30 years of content that you replace it with something that is at least a tad unique. Otherwise, what was the point of getting rid of all those perfectly good stories that could have worked fine, Thrawn, the Emperor Reborn...

 

 

The movie wasn't necessarily about the superweapon either, it was about locating luke. Starkiller merely was the place where Rey was being held, and it wasn't discovered until half-way through the movie.

 

The issue here was the premise of finding Luke was really weak and never well-established. In the end, it felt like the scriptwriters realised this and tried to compensate by inserting a completely unnecessary superweapon into the movie. If the finding Luke arc was so good, would it not be good enough to stand on its own?

 

 

Perhaps the Republic became complacent and the Resistance was a disgruntled faction within that wanted to take action? Who knows, the answers will probably be revealed in 8, or most likely in 9

 

Believe you me, I thought this too and speculated wildly. But if it takes another movie to resolve what should be a simple explanation of the state of the galaxy, easily discussed in a single line of expository dialogue then the movie has issues. 

[Hassat Hunter 571]

The movie wasn't necessarily about the superweapon either, it was about locating luke. Starkiller merely was the place where Rey was being held, and it wasn't discovered until half-way through the movie

And thus, it had no place.

 

It was all "Find Luke, find Luke, find Luke, find Luke... suddenly... superweapon... superweapon dead?... okay, deus ex machina resolution to find Luke... and; movie's over.

 

See how it could have been omitted. Heck, it BEING omitted would have improved the movie? It seriously is just... there... no reason, no specific plots, au contraire, it's a plotholder!

[Doctor Evil 51]

But don't you see that is the problem? They played it so safe that they ended up creating effectively a clone. By the way I reject wholeheartedly your typecasting of SW fans. We're not critical of everything, we just expect that when you throw out over 30 years of content that you replace it with something that is at least a tad unique. Otherwise, what was the point of getting rid of all those perfectly good stories that could have worked fine, Thrawn, the Emperor Reborn...

 

What they did was create spiritual rehash of Episode IV by bringing back certain ideas of what made the first great. Films copy off their predecessors all the damn time, and LMAO EU was a pile of trash other than the jedi knight series and Thrawn as you said. Emperor Reborn was about as intelligent as dumb and dumber.

 

The movie was intended to be for the next generation of movie-goers while giving the oldies some nostalgia.. .Yes it borrows heavily, but I don't get why that's such a bad thing when it works fine. And no, it's not effectively a clone, there are quite some differences between this and Episode IV mate.

 

I am a Star Wars fan, but sometimes I'm ashamed to be one because of how autistic certain fans can act, especially when they blindly hate the prequels when they weren't nearly as bad as what people say they are (though they aren't good).

 

 

The issue here was the premise of finding Luke was really weak and never well-established. In the end, it felt like the scriptwriters realised this and tried to compensate by inserting a completely unnecessary superweapon into the movie. If the finding Luke arc was so good, would it not be good enough to stand on its own?

 

I don't get where you're getting this idea of finding Luke is a weak plot and got overshadowed. It was still one of the main points of the movie, but destroying a weapon that can suck up stars takes precedence. It wasn't necessarily a huge arc on its own more or less a plot point

 

 

Believe you me, I thought this too and speculated wildly. But if it takes another movie to resolve what should be a simple explanation of the state of the galaxy, easily discussed in a single line of expository dialogue then the movie has issues.

 

This was an issue I believe could have been easily resolved in the opening text crawl, but if you need a movie to explain everything to you on a silver platter with no explanation at all then go watch the originals again. These movies are intended to be trilogy rather than stand-alone-ish like the originals were.

 

And thus, it had no place.

 

It was all "Find Luke, find Luke, find Luke, find Luke... suddenly... superweapon... superweapon dead?... okay, deus ex machina resolution to find Luke... and; movie's over.

 

See how it could have been omitted. Heck, it BEING omitted would have improved the movie? It seriously is just... there... no reason, no specific plots, au contraire, it's a plotholder!

 

Yes, let's put Rey on some generic prison ship/station/planet 101 that's completely forgettable and serves no purpose but to just hold Rey prisoner, how dare it have more than one use! How dare it be a superweapon for a regime that models itself off the Galactic Empire, a regime that ruled through fear of destruction!

 

It's there because it's the First Order's tool for victory over the Republic, and it's also there because like it or not, this movie isn't geared just those who saw the originals and loved it but for, like I said and Disney said, the next generation.

 

If you want to blame somebody for how the movie "played it safe", then blame yourselves because the Star Wars fans were what cause George Lucas to change the plot of the prequels (even though they weren't good anyway), and fear of fan backlash is what drove them to make the movie somewhat safe.

 

I don't get why you all are so angry at them re-using the superweapon again, because by that logic then ROTJ is automatically worse for it using a second Death Star. I was happy they modeled it somewhat off A New Hope because it's the start of something good for star wars.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

You keep saying that... but I don't think anyone in this thread besides you believes it. I certainly never met Star Wars fans like that. It seems you have a pretty skifted view, and no I don't like being compared to it like it's some fact...

[Malkior 476]

What silly and unforgivable weaponry?

Hmm.. The Suncrusher, a weapon that fires hypernuclear warheads into a star and destroys everything nearby with the supernova it causes?

 

(Actually, in retrospect, kind of cool.. but still ridiculous/silly..)

[Doctor Evil 51]

You keep saying that... but I don't think anyone in this thread besides you believes it. I certainly never met Star Wars fans like that. It seems you have a pretty skifted view, and no I don't like being compared to it like it's some fact...

 

Can you please use quotes like I do so I know what point you're addressing? It's awful confusing, also wondering if you might address what else I said because I still have been waiting on that from anyone.

 

I'll assume you're referring to my calling out SW fans, of course you don't believe it because we're on a Star Wars forum and I'm guessing a lot of you are more hardcore fans than I am, don't take it personally mate but the fact is when people are called out for something they tend to deny it, it's human nature. Way I see it, the lot of you are looking through rose-colored glasses at this. Not saying all Star Wars fans are like that, but there are quite a few who mouth off about any little thing. If the superweapon plot is so boring and bland, then by that logic ANH and ROTJ suck because superweapons weren't exactly an original concept even back then.

 

Still don't get why re-used plot points ruins the movie so badly for some of you, especially since it's been nearly 40 years since ANH came out. If anything, that movie deserved somewhat of a remake and this was both that and something new at the same time.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Doctor Evil

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Because it really feels like ANH re-done and I was hoping to see a *new* Star Wars movie?

 

It's... really not that hard.

And we already explained why it's completely ridicilous in this movie.

[Doctor Evil 51]

Because it really feels like ANH re-done and I was hoping to see a *new* Star Wars movie?

 

It's... really not that hard.

And we already explained why it's completely ridicilous in this movie.

 

Still waiting for you to address my points on how it completely ruins the movie, let alone form a convincing argument. Use dem quotes son

 

It was both old and new, and I already explained why it's not completely ridiculous in this movie and how you're logic makes it completely ridiculous for any Star Wars movie. You're proving me right more and more about star wars fans in general, just sayin.

 

I loved the movie, the critics loved the movie, a lot of people loved the movie, so you're pretty much in the minority in this one

Edited December 21, 2015 by Doctor Evil

[LiliArch 115]

I don't get why you all are so angry at them re-using the superweapon again, because by that logic then ROTJ is automatically worse for it using a second Death Star. I was happy they modeled it somewhat off A New Hope because it's the start of something good for star wars.

 

Would it make you happier, if I would say that I, for one, was sick of it in RotJ, already? Not to mention a similar "a huge explosion of a big spherical thing" in TPM...

 

Superweapons can be cool, and big explosions in space battles can be cool, but they grow old when overused.

[Doctor Evil 51]

Would it make you happier, if I would say that I, for one, was sick of it in RotJ, already? Not to mention a similar "a huge explosion of a big spherical thing" in TPM...

 

Superweapons can be cool, and big explosions in space battles can be cool, but they grow old when overused.

 

Then I can understand your frustration, because for people to be criticizing TFA's usage of the superweapon is ridiculous when ROTJ did the same thing.

 

In my opinion it works because, like I said, it's been a long time since we had Episode 4, and even episode 6, and those were the last star wars movies revolving around a superweapon. We live in the era of re-makes, and while it did rehash Episode 4 a bit, I think it brought enough new to the table to make it feel fresh

[Hassat Hunter 571]

So far the only SW-fan I find obnoxious is you. And "I think this, I am right, you are wrong. If you disagree with me you're a horrible person. That's fact" only reinforces that.

[Doctor Evil 51]

So far the only SW-fan I find obnoxious is you. And "I think this, I am right, you are wrong. If you disagree with me you're a horrible person. That's fact" only reinforces that.

 

How am I obnoxious when I'm simply asking you to address my points when you still haven't? I apologize if I come off as blunt and a bit sarcastic, but if you're going to get upset about that then the internet isn't for you.

 

I actually want an intelligent discussion on this, but all I'm getting back is "OH ITS OVERUSED BLAH BLAH BLAH ITS NOW A BAD MOVIE/DOESNT COMPARE or IT DOESNT FIT WITH THE PLOT", so excuse me for sounding a bit frustrated when people seem to make a mountain over a molehill on one point that had similarity to Episode IV, I'm shocked you're not complaining about how Jakku was practically Tatooine.

[Box 8]

Re: Doctor Evil. Deadly Stream, for as long as I've known it, isn't quite like the rest of the internet. This isn't 4chan, people here value being polite. You came into this thread with a chip on your shoulder about certain types of Star Wars fans and people not liking The Force Awakens. I think we've been trying to engage you reasonably. Maybe just take a breather.

[Mutilator57 140]

What they did was create spiritual rehash of Episode IV by bringing back certain ideas of what made the first great. Films copy off their predecessors all the damn time, and LMAO EU was a pile of trash other than the jedi knight series and Thrawn as you said. Emperor Reborn was about as intelligent as dumb and dumber.

 

The movie was intended to be for the next generation of movie-goers while giving the oldies some nostalgia.. .Yes it borrows heavily, but I don't get why that's such a bad thing when it works fine. And no, it's not effectively a clone, there are quite some differences between this and Episode IV mate.

 

I am a Star Wars fan, but sometimes I'm ashamed to be one because of how autistic certain fans can act, especially when they blindly hate the prequels when they weren't nearly as bad as what people say they are (though they aren't good).

 

'Spiritual rehash', what a euphemistic way of screaming CLONE! Has it occurred to you what forum you're on!? You call the EU a 'pile of trash', exclude all but two story arcs but neglect to mention the Old Republic, the sheer arrogance! You also contradict yourself, you say it 'borrows heavily' and then go on to say that it is not 'effectively a clone', do you know what effectively means? Again your typecasting of SW fans is heavily flawed and incorrect.

 

 

I don't get where you're getting this idea of finding Luke is a weak plot and got overshadowed. It was still one of the main points of the movie, but destroying a weapon that can suck up stars takes precedence. It wasn't necessarily a huge arc on its own more or less a plot point

 

IMO I'm saying it was weak. Of course it was the central premise of the entire movie, but what I was saying was that it was a weak plot for a movie because it is never well-established why it is so damn important to find him! If that had been the case then there would have been no need for another silly superweapon!

 

 

This was an issue I believe could have been easily resolved in the opening text crawl, but if you need a movie to explain everything to you on a silver platter with no explanation at all then go watch the originals again. These movies are intended to be trilogy rather than stand-alone-ish like the originals were.

 

You misunderstand. Herein lies the problem, an issue that could have easily-been resolved but WASN'T. It is not about a silver platter, its movie-making 101, a backstory should be EXPLAINED. If this movie needs another to make sense then it has profound flaws as whilst the originals were of course, created to be understood in a trilogy, the difference was that they ALL WORKED ALONE WELL.

 

 

If you want to blame somebody for how the movie "played it safe", then blame yourselves because the Star Wars fans were what cause George Lucas to change the plot of the prequels (even though they weren't good anyway), and fear of fan backlash is what drove them to make the movie somewhat safe.

 

So its our fault that we have expectations befitting of the SW universe? Perverse logic indeed. You act as though the choices of the film's creators were not their own, yet all the way through they *chose* to play it safe, all of the opportunities for them to make something new were there in front of them, more so considering their devastation of the EU.

 

 

I don't get why you all are so angry at them re-using the superweapon again, because by that logic then ROTJ is automatically worse for it using a second Death Star. I was happy they modeled it somewhat off A New Hope because it's the start of something good for star wars.

 

What are you failing to understand in my arguments? I am angry because it is old and used, its creative potential wasted. If they had used the plot of another movie (Avatar using Dances with Wolves for example) that would be another matter, but using almost the exact same story within their own universe, worse, within their own movie trilogies is simply lazy and poor writing.

[Doctor Evil 51]

Re: Doctor Evil. Deadly Stream, for as long as I've known it, isn't quite like the rest of the internet. This isn't 4chan, people here value being polite. You came into this thread with a chip on your shoulder about certain types of Star Wars fans and people not liking The Force Awakens. I think we've been trying to engage you reasonably. Maybe just take a breather.

 

My issue is just people hating on something without backing it up when I call them out, that is all. I'd like to engage somebody in a good intellectual discussion, and I came into this thread attempting to defend the movie rather than call people out. Every fanbase has its share of problems, just look at how blind Walking Dead fans are.

 

'Spiritual rehash', what a euphemistic way of screaming CLONE! Has it occurred to you what forum you're on!? You call the EU a 'pile of trash', exclude all but two story arcs but neglect to mention the Old Republic, the sheer arrogance! You also contradict yourself, you say it 'borrows heavily' and then go on to say that it is not 'effectively a clone', do you know what effectively means? Again your typecasting of SW fans is heavily flawed and incorrect.

 

Rehash is not the same word as remake, a remake is more akin to Clone than a rehash.

Excuse me, by EU I meant everything after Return of the Jedi EU, since that's what I assumed EU generally referred to. While I said borrows heavily, I meant in terms of how it was borrowed rather than how much as borrowed, but borrows nonetheless. I'll try to be more clear next time.

 

Please don't jump to conclusions or gut-react. I didn't say ALL star wars fans.

 

 

IMO I'm saying it was weak. Of course it was the central premise of the entire movie, but what I was saying was that it was a weak plot for a movie because it is never well-established why it is so damn important to find him! If that had been the case then there would have been no need for another silly superweapon!

 

Luke skywalker had practically become a legend amongst most people in the galaxy despite the events of 30 years ago, but remember that the Empire, being a facist regime, most likely downplayed or even outright denied the claim of the emperor's death. Given the presence of the First Order, Jedi are generally best for resolving issues, who better than get the last of the Jedi? And the Superweapon, as I said, is there because the First Order is basically a bunch of people attempting to re-create the Galactic Empire, and the Galactic Empire was all about dominance through power

 

 

You misunderstand. Herein lies the problem, an issue that could have easily-been resolved but WASN'T. It is not about a silver platter, its movie-making 101, a backstory should be EXPLAINED. If this movie needs another to make sense then it has profound flaws as whilst the originals were of course, created to be understood in a trilogy, the difference was that they ALL WORKED ALONE WELL.

 

So because the movie leaves you with questions it automatically makes it worse? It's what entices you to watch the following movies. The original movie was made standalone because there was no guarantee it was going to be a hit, and when it was they wanted to follow up on that success, that's what bred the originals as a successive arc. If anything leaving us wondering gives us something to think about, and I like to think in movies. Let's take a look at Interstellar. The backstory of the movie isn't entirely clear, but we know that the Earth is slowly becoming more toxic to humans, and that society has degraded due to a large famine, though we don't know to what point. The backstory for TFA is that the old governments are gone, what happened is becoming stories told to a new generation, and with the vacuum in power, someone is about to take over. That someone is the First Order, and I don't think the New Republic was nearly as strong as either the Empire or the Republic.

 

 

So its our fault that we have expectations befitting of the SW universe? Perverse logic indeed. You act as though the choices of the film's creators were not their own, yet all the way through they *chose* to play it safe, all of the opportunities for them to make something new were there in front of them.

 

No, what I'm saying is that because of the backlash, it caused a fear of such happening again. There's nothing stopping them from creating something new in the following movies, and this is only the start of a trilogy, so I don't get why we're automatically trashing it because it has some parts similar to what we've seen before, it's like trashing a TV show when you haven't even seen 3 episodes of it.

 

 

What are you failing to understand in my arguments? I am angry because it is old and used, its creative potential wasted. If they had used the plot of another movie (Avatar using Dances with Wolves for example) that would be another matter, but using almost the exact same story within their own universe, worse, within their own trilogies is simply lazy and poor writing.

 

It's common principle that films and writers copy off themselves, big or small. Return of the Jedi did it with the Death Star, Phantom Menace did it with the explosion of the Droid control ship. The big battle above Coruscant in Episode 3? Reminiscent of Episode 4. The quest to find the star forge and destroy it? Reminiscent of Episode 4. Discovering you're the evil sith lord behind Darth Malak? Reminiscent of Episode V. Like I said, this logic automatically makes lots of Star Wars automatically worse because it re-uses ideas from its predecessors. It's not poor writing when done right while feeling fresh and the movie, in my opinion and in lots of other people's opinion, did both.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Doctor Evil