Sithspecter

It's so nice for other people to tell us what's right and fair to happen to our mods...

They used to say that animating Revan's cape was impossible too. I showed them. Thanks for your vote of confidence though. The reason that Fair Strides (and I for that matter) are somewhat upset with your comment was that you said, "Do you even have sidequest and story related stuff planned for this mod yet?" as if we'd been going about this for 2 years without considering the need for a plot. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I've known this from the beginning. There are large spurts of productivity and there are lulls where little happens. The important thing is that we keep working on it. You might be interested to know that in the ~3 months of development of High Quality Blasters, the last month contained 66% of the progress. And again, I'd like to emphasize that our lack of updates in this thread does not mean that I have nothing to show. Actually, there are a number of areas that we haven't disclosed to the public because we want you to have a brand new experience similar to the other planets. I'd love to show them to you, but I don't want to take away some of the magic that's associated with seeing new places and things.

Dak is back!!

The plot thickens: http://www.nexusmods.com/games/news/12815/? I don't care if you are fine with Nexus uploading the mods or not, but can we all appreciate the hypocrisy of this situation?

Maybe so, but I'm tired because the arguments in this thread can't seem to die.

Basically, here's what happened. I logged into LucasForums after an unknown period of time. I was a moderator there. But now, everybody's gone. Something happened. All the sections are all destroyed, and I see these half-dead mods walking around. Then, I get hit on the head with a ban-hammer. I awake once again to find Canderis. He didn't meant to hit me with the ban-hammer, he thought I was one of them. Canderis tells me that there was a Nexus that has infected all of the old mods! They are now Zombie-Mods! They brainlessly make their way across the Internet, infecting the override folders of all the users who get near them. Without the brains behind them, they serve only to infect and destroy. Gone are their original forms! I leave Canderis' house in search of the modding community. I travel to the center of the Nexus. There, I become trapped as almost 900 Zombie-Mods try to destroy me! I'm able to recognize a few that used to mine, and destroy them, but the rest are trying to eat me. MilesTails calls to me from a private message system inside the walker, and is able to save me. I meet up with a few survivors from the Deadly Stream, and we make our way out of the chaotic Nexus. On the way back to the Deadly Stream, we arrive just to late to stop a group of Zombie-Mods from attacking. They claim some of our members for their own. Once I reach the Deadly Stream, I meet up with Sith Holocron and Fair Strides. We travel the Internet in search of a cure for the Zombie Mods. Eventually, the Deadly Stream finds a home in a nice secure location. We have walls and fences, and everything is good inside. We try to tend to our new mods, but find that the Nexus has taken up residence close by. Appearing to be gracious and righteous, the Nexus wants to draw us in. Little do we know that the Nexus is led by an evil ruler with only one eye, who happens to keep Zombie-Mods for his own personal uses. Pretty soon, the Nexus is knocking at the gates to destroy everything we've worked for in the name of unity. Modders are going down left and right and the whole place is overrun by Zombie-Mods! Why, oh why, couldn't the Nexus just let the Zombie-Mods die!? They try to eat our flesh and brains, and infect us.

They've really screwed the pooch now. They've blindly combined all the categories, so you can't tell what's old or new. They have so many bugged versions and duplicate versions, and nobody is maintaining them. I'm also upset that my more modern mods are buried under decade old mods. They could have made an "Archive: Use At Your Own Risk" section.

That would require me to overcome my hatred of TSL... We'll talk.

In my experience, placeables go exactly where you place them, regardless of whatever else is there. If you place the pod right on top of the previous one, it should stick. Though, in my opinion the better route to go would be adding it into the .lyt and .vis files instead. If you do that, you won't have to worry about new .2da lines, walkmeshes, etc. You can just enter the coordinates for it, and it will definitely spawn in the right place. There isn't a cutscene, but that's not a bad idea for a mod.

Consequences are nil. The game looks for the AuroraBase, which is still named correctly to be used by the item. Since the game didn't already have a fourth version of the Ion Rifle, it still works fine.

Why do you feel the need to remove the files? It's not breaking the game, so a small visual glitch shouldn't hurt anything. Anyways, I did see it in my game. Try renaming the files to w_ionrfl_04.mdl/.mdx instead. This seems to make it go away.

I don't have any clue what is causing that. There is a similar thing that happens in the Sith Base on Taris, but it occurs in the vanilla game as best as I can tell. A repeating blaster appears just inside the long hallway that you enter after the first reception room. I could do some investigating, but it's unlikely that I'll be able to figure out what makes this happen (especially since you say it only happens with party members).

I'm done making arguments in this thread. I've presented my beef with Nexus, explained my position, and defended my arguments. You can make your own conclusions. Since a reversal of the Nexus decision is out of the question at this point, the argument is moot anyways. I'm trying to move on to the phase of what we can do about it. I've begun compiling a list of contact information for KotOR authors. Once I have a complete list, I will email/PM notifications that Nexus has uploaded KotOR Files' content. In addition, as I've been going through the files, I have been reporting duplicate and older versions of mods. That's about all that I can do at this point. Hopefully we can get some of the bugged or older versions off so that users don't end up with bugged games. I have also requested that Nexus change the dates to more accurately reflect the mods' original periods and allow newer mods to be seen better.

Once again, we keep going round and round with this: Preservation Does Not Require Immediate Publication. I'm not faulting Nexus (I'll get back to Archive in a minute) for working to preserve, but instead their decision to publish quickly with little effort to contact mod authors. This is how I think it could have been handled better: 1. Nexus notices Game Front is closing 2. Nexus downloads all the mods, descriptions, screenshots, and structure 3. Nexus announces that they have backed up all the File Front mods 4. Nexus attempts to contact mod authors 5. After a reasonable period of time with no feedback from authors, Nexus publishes the mods. All I'm asking for is a bit of effort to contact original mod authors. Take me, for example. I'm already on Nexus. I'm an active and contributing member. If they wanted to know if I would give my permission to upload my old mods, they could have simply dropped me a PM, received a polite "no", and everyone could have gone on their merry way. And frankly, they did ignore my requests. Each of my mods had a specific clause prohibiting uploads to other sites. If Nexus gains advertising revenue from page views, part of their motivation very well could be a modest amount of profit from posting hundreds and hundreds of mods from now classic gains. Their motivations may not be as pure as they seem. That's just speculation, but could very well be the case. Once again, few users have spoken negatively about it. The problem is that now the whole thing is a bit upside down. You have a flood of old mods that are more "recent" than the newer mods, which is confusing and hurts active members with newer mods. In addition, the categories are all weird now. You have duplicate categories, and it's difficult to navigate. It's more visible. That's the big deal. And possibly the revenue issue. But really it's the same at its core. I think the Archive is now a non-issue though, as I believe Xander has been trying to access links from there but has been unable to, and getting various redirects. My biggest problem with the Nexus thing is this: I'm an active member there, I contribute to the community. Nexus claims to do everything they can to maintain rights and permissions of the author, but then upload old, embarrassing mods that I was glad went down with the KotOR Files ship. All they had to do was ask. I'm glad some (let's be honest, a lot of the old, old mods were just terrible) of the mods are still available for posterity. I'm glad to see the original screenshots and descriptions. I'm disappointed in their lack of effort to seek the permissions they claim to uphold. That's all.

Okay, it seems like most people aren't understanding where some of the authors are coming from in our disgruntlement. Xander and Box, for example, haven't been around as long as some of us old timers. Way way back, before there was Sithspecter, there was PCGameMods. PCGameMods was one of the largest file hosting sites, and had many, many popular mods hosted exclusively there. Sometime in 2006, PCGameMods shut down, losing many KotOR Mods. The community survived. People made a mods request thread, and the mods were passed happily around. When I arrived at Lucas Forums on January 3, 2008, modding was a big and happening thing. There were new modders every week, TSLRP was promising, Quanon had just released the first ever brand new area, and it seemed like anything was possible. Huge projects rose and fell, WIP threads were booming, and the community was vibrant. Community rules were strictly enforced. Very strictly. It was fun! Then, in June of 2008, TSLRP was leaked. The community was split. Some applauded the decision to leak the unfinished mod, others saw it as a downright immoral violation. In any case, the unfinished mod was out there, now out of the control of the modders. I don't know enough about TSLRP to know if they would have had a chance had the mod not been leaked, but it certainly hurt any chance they had left. As you well know, TSLRP was never finished. TSLRCM eventually rose to take its place, some years later. Could there have been a finished TSLRP had the mod not been leaked? Maybe, but now we will never know. This isn't a criticism of TSLRCM, they did an outstanding job. In any case, the community survived. People played the bugged version, but it wasn't so great. People made more mods, and some people worked on their own TSL restoration... Then, in March of 2009, File Front threatened to shut down. It was a time of panic in the KotOR community. Folks frantically downloaded the mods, screenshots, and descriptions to try to preserve the mods. They didn't upload them, mind you, because that was not the way we did things. Fortunately, KotOR Files did not go down at that time. The modding community breathed a sigh of relief, and then went on. People made more mods. Some people began to think of another website not in danger of shutting down... Then, in August of 2010, Deadly Stream came to life. The transition was slow, as most people were familiar with KotOR Files and Lucas Forums. Some made the leap faster than others. I was unceremoniously slow to this party, placing my faith in the larger but slowing Lucas Forums. However, a few visionaries saw the eventual closing of File Front and made a place where KotOR mods would be safe for years to come. Many modders began to release their mods here as well. Others chose not to. The community survived. People made more mods. Later, in 2012, there was another File Front scare. KotOR Files was under threat of going down again. Once again, folks frantically downloaded the mods, screenshots, and descriptions to try to preserve the mods. They didn't upload them, mind you, because that was not the way we did things. Fortunately, KotOR Files did not go down at that time either. The modding community breathed a very nervous sigh of relief, and then went on. People made more mods, but not as many. KotOR Files became a broken skeleton of what it once was, and more and more people came to Deadly Stream. Finally, in 2015, FileFront went down. GameFront archived most of the files, which finally spelled an end for the dying KotOR Files. People could still get the files, but it wasn't the same. It was just a matter of time until they were gone. Once again, folks frantically downloaded the mods, to try and preserve them. They didn't upload them, mind you, because that was not the way we did things. But, people made more mods. The community was actually regaining popularity! Then, in 2016, GameFront announced its closure. This was going to be the death of the tattered remains of KotOR Files. Once again, folks frantically downloaded the mods to try to preserve them. But, this time a group of people from Nexus decided to upload them without permission, despite that not being the way we do things. In a very similar situation as the 2008 leak of TSLRP, the community is now divided. Many users believe Nexus to be the savior of File Front. On the other hand, a number of modders feel as if their rights have been violated. It didn't have to be this way. If Nexus had taken the time to try to contact authors or even just the communities that make up the fan bases for each of the games, it would have been a step in the right direction. I'm not saying they should have sat by and watched the File Front ship sink. I'm saying if they are going to do something, to do it right. Do it properly. I had over a dozen mods at KotOR Files. That was where I downloaded many of the mods that got me into modding. But the most important thing through all of this wasn't the files, it was the people. Through modding, I have been able to interact with many folks from across the globe in a unique and special way. Some became my good friends over time. Many have moved on over the years, and are no longer active. But a mass dump of all their files doesn't quite feel like a tribute to them. I feel like my friends and their wishes are being ignored by a large site, whatever their motivation may be. I know how important authors' rights have been in this community for over a decade, so please understand that this issue runs very deep. I'm going to do what I can to contact original authors so they can regain control over their mods. I still don't agree with the decision to upload without consent and without trying to make contact, but I'll see what I can do to fix some of this mess now that I have Nexus' attention.

I think the most positive thing that will come from this is that MilesTails will get a well-deserved break.

That means they had to back them up within two weeks, not publish all of them. So far, it seems that the feedback from the people who have had mods transferred to Nexus (RedRob, JCarter, and myself) feel neutral to negatively about it. Of course, user feedback is overwhelmingly positive. Here is the response to my email: I'm going to try to be more positive in my response, explain where the community gets its roots in being protective of rights, and offer assistance in trying to contact some of the original authors.

They have responded, and given me control of the files, but failed to answer any of my questions. My response: The biggest issue for me is that the precedent has been set for uploading files that aren't yours. If the staff have done it, then it's free game now. Upload whatever you want to Nexus! As I said, they're going to have a tough time answering the question, "So now when I upload mods, can I include content created by others who have not allowed me to use it? I'll include a clause that says if they happen to notice it that I'll turn it over to them." One answer is rife with hypocrisy, and the other is a total and complete violation of intellectual property.

Easy enough to say when they didn't take your mods.

My email to Nexus:

I think you have things way out of order here. Why is approaching the original authors the third thing on the list? It should be first. As several have pointed out, File Front has been archived multiple times. There are already places you can get all of the old mods. Nobody made them the savior of File Front. They didn't purchase File Front or have have any real right to the mods. This is a ridiculous analogy. We're not talking about lives, we're talking about mods. The mod is not "lost" or sent to "oblivion" because the host site goes down. There are thousands of copies that people have downloaded out there. There are legitimate ways to get these mods, they aren't lost forever. That's exactly what Deadly Stream has already done... We were able to get most of the good mods. A lot of the rest really aren't great or worth mentioning. Nexus isn't gaining that much by mass uploads regardless of how popular a mod was. There are dozens there now that would have been fine if they went down with KotOR Files.

Had this happened in 2008, you'd have a war happening. Back then tensions were high, and authorship rights were fiercely protected and enforced. The Team Gizka scandal showed how angry the community could get about even the rights of other people's mods, not to mention their own mods. That was when KotOR Files was the king. The staff maintained the website, wrote reviews, had polls, and even rejected mods. It was a different time. Now the whole process is a bit more quiet. Uploads are self-made, there are no real staff reviews, and the community has mellowed a bit in regards to authorship. People seem to be less uptight about their mods. They seem okay with having people edit them or upload them elsewhere, as long as appropriate credit is given. I think the biggest problem was that we used to assume (and still do) that hosting websites won't go down. We put all our faith in KotOR Files, and it tanked, leaving most mods with no clause or provision to go elsewhere. That was the real mistake. Maybe that was what some people wanted, but most of the modders we have asked to upload their lost mods seem to be happy to do so, or let us do so here. I don't think modders intended for their mods to be lost in the black if KotOR Files went down. In my opinion, the spirit of the permissions clauses that we wrote was more or less, "Don't take credit for the mod I worked hard to make". We just didn't make provisions for a File Front Apocalypse. That being said, the letter of the permissions still doesn't provide for re-upload in most cases. Therefore Nexus is acting against the rights of hundreds of modders. They didn't exactly have a right to all the File Front content. They decided for themselves, much like the folks at the Steam Workshop, that they would re-upload the mods. Fortunately, they seem to have preserved most of the original form of the mods, which is a nice tribute to KotOR Files. I can see the reasons they did what they did, but that doesn't make it right necessarily. In any case, there's not much that can be done about it at this point. At least not for folks who aren't around anymore.

I don't want to lock it, as I think that would cause people to incorrectly think that the project was cancelled even if I provided explanation. Either way I will try to provide more updates as I work on the project.

Blowfish64, you gave a very tongue-in-cheek "Any updates on this project? Coming soon seems to be not so soon," and I gave you a polite and professional answer. Then, you continue your tirade against the thread title. Is it really that big of a deal that you needed to post about it again? Once again, I have apologized that you were misled into thinking that there would be a quick Sleheyron release. I'm not denying that it's been a while since there was an update. I've stated that I'm not going to post every single little thing that we do in a bid to win attention in a WIP thread. I'm sorry you thought there would be a rapid turn around on this mod. But now you do know, so now you can think "Oh, they're making a huge expansion to the game, I'll be following their progress over the next couple of years, hope they make it." After two rather pointed posts about the thread title when I had been nothing but courteous, changing the thread title seemed to be a harmless way to make light of the situation. I have not accused you of trolling, but your post could be easily construed that way. I've changed the thread title to "Sleheyron" now.