Impressions of M4-78 EP (Version 1.2 only)

[Guest]

OK so the theory is one of these alien races had plans for a colony, and the Sith stole it, and Vash and her Padawan fried them in a microwave? Personally, at this point my only real complaint with this MOD is that the vague theoretical plot doesn't truly connect to the plot of the game as a whole. You don't learn about your "Force Emptiness" problem. You don't help heal or destroy anything to 'help' or 'hurt' the Republic. I also have to question Vash and Padawan's ethics in trapping all the soldiers in a super-microwave! Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Vash! Glad to see her back in game, but as a person who does more writing as a creative hobby than anything else, I think the story needs deeper roots, more grounding in the Kotor/TSL (I ignore TOR) world.

 

Yup, exactly my problem too- feels like a DLC set-up for a game that never happened rather than a part of TSL. 

[zbyl2 811]

OK so the theory is one of these alien races had plans for a colony, and the Sith stole it, and Vash and her Padawan fried them in a microwave? Personally, at this point my only real complaint with this MOD is that the vague theoretical plot doesn't truly connect to the plot of the game as a whole. You don't learn about your "Force Emptiness" problem. You don't help heal or destroy anything to 'help' or 'hurt' the Republic. I also have to question Vash and Padawan's ethics in trapping all the soldiers in a super-microwave! Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Vash! Glad to see her back in game, but as a person who does more writing as a creative hobby than anything else, I think the story needs deeper roots, more grounding in the Kotor/TSL (I ignore TOR) world.

No, yeah, I agree, it's definitely more of a stand alone thing. Wish we kept the Sith Survivor plot, then we could probably have him talk about the whole planet being almost death in the Force due to it being populated by machines, which would have reinforced game's themes a bit better.

 

Still, Vash does fill in an important plot detail, in a way, as she has more comments about the Force Bond than other masters.

 

 

 This mod kinda didn't have much to work with considering it's meant to be a Restoration and not a custom overhaul of some of the game's entire plot

Nah, M4-78EP was never really meant as a restoration, it's mostly custom content. There's barely anything left from the planet except for few major plot points, and we filled in the blanks between them.

[Lawkmt3 17]

Please, understand that I'm not bashing the MOD. It's awesome that you all did it and put it out there for free. I'm not sure I'm that generous. I just have this writers brain that constantly tortures me. There's a reason all the "Greats" have major issues. Fortunately, I'm not a 'Great' by any definition of the word, but I still get tortured.

[zbyl2 811]

What makes you think I thought you were bashing the mod? I started my reply with saying I agree with you.

[Lawkmt3 17]

Oh I meant that for the general public. One of the bad things about this form of communication is that it's less than 20% accurate.

[Sith Holocron 2,480]

Nah, M4-78EP was never really meant as a restoration, it's mostly custom content. There's barely anything left from the planet except for few major plot points, and we filled in the blanks between them.

Which is the main reason it's the "Enhancement Project" rather than being named a "Restoration."  Well . . . that and the fact Team Bantha's unfinished mod was named the "M4-78 RP."

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Its called EP since it fleshes out Stoneys original. By a LOT.

Think people overestimate how original planets work. Nar Shaddaa is just as isolated a story as M4-78. Korriban too. Dxun. Onderon and Dantooine literally just the finale.

 

Kotor1 wasnt much different, with planets only connected by star maps. Now its Masters. Its a little hard to tie it in if there's nothing to tie into. You get the Master, same as all other worlds. Ending decides if it helps Republic or not, like Onderon/Dantooine.

 

So I ask you, how would you "tie it in" then?

[Lawkmt3 17]

I have a few ideas, they're just my imagination running wild so it may or may not be your particular POV but if you really want to know, I can list them...

 

1. Narrow down which Sith Faction stole the planet. Was it Malak, was it Revan, Traya, Sion or Nihilus? Explain why they wanted an extra Droid army.

 

2. Provide a little more detail into why M4-78 and ES05's ethical programming clashes. Obviously he could Override his original directive like GOTO but she couldn't. Why is this?

 

3. Emphasize the fact that Vash and Khaa's actions created another "wound" in the Force, like Malachore V or Katarr! Also, since the Exile is "Immune" to other wounds like these how she/he can help fix it.

[Lawkmt3 17]

Please tell me there is a way to get Vash out alive!

[Hassat Hunter 571]

1. No other sith on other planets do that. You only know Onderon is Nihilus due to Tobin being on bis yaught for example. With everyone dead, thats a little harder. Also, why WOULDN'T they want a droid army. Thats a bit like explaining why Revan and Malak wanted the Star Forge. Does that need to be stated explicitely?

 

2. He doesn't really. Also M4 made IS-24 and ES-05. That alone should tell you hes a bit more advanced.

 

3. The Masters on Dantooine already explain they all went to planets which were battlegrounds, where Force Users are difficulty to sense. Again; Something thats only silly being mentioned explicitely.

[Lawkmt3 17]

As I mentioned before, they were just ideas off the top of my head. They may not be something everyone is interested. That said, you do know why Sion destroyed Peragus, and why Nhilius wants Onderon! Dantooine, Telos, and Korriban all tie into K1, and M4-78 just waves out there like a kite without a string to tether it to K1 or TSL.

 

Is there really no way to save Lonna so she's on Dantooine?

[Kexikus 995]

Is there really no way to save Lonna so she's on Dantooine?

 

No, there's no way to do that in M4-78EP. I assume that's due to the fact that there are no voice lines for her on Dantooine, but one of the developers would have to confirm that.

[Lawkmt3 17]

Yuck! Oh okay.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

You seem to have missed mentioning NS. The biggest planet. And Dxun.

 

Also Nihilus and Onderon make little sense for "doesnt care for people or planets, sees a much bigger picture" Nihilus who only comes to Telos for the Jedi Academy.

But due tell me how it actually makes sense for him to want Onderon.

[Lawkmt3 17]

Nar Shaada and Dxun also tie into the Mandalorian wars, a theme Central to the Exile. M4-78 has nothing to do with either the Jedi Civil War, the Republic, nor the Exile's history. A link to any one of these plot points would make the mod better! 

 

The Bloodline of Freedon Naad, might make Nihilus stable, or give him a host! There are very good reasons for Nhilius wanting that planet.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

The plotline doesn't allow a link with any of those.

(Though for republic theres the whole droid army you provide them with)

[zbyl2 811]

Hassat, you don't seem to understand what he's getting at here. You seem to be thinking about how the planets are connected but you're completely ignoring game's themes.

 

To give a more obvious example, think about how often the game talks about the past, be it your own, your companions or the Jedi and galaxy in general. Dxun (and by extension Onderon) fits right into it, because that's where you fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Korriban plays with that theme in the tomb. Goto is all about fixing the galaxy after the Jedi Civil War, and Nar Shaddaa as well as the whole Jedi bounty plot is basically an extension of his character. Dantooine is obvious.

 

M4-78's got nothing.

 

There's a lot of things we can argue about when it comes to M4-78, but it is definitely much more stand alone than any other planet in the game.

[JCarter426 1,220]

You seem to have missed mentioning NS. The biggest planet. And Dxun.

 

Also Nihilus and Onderon make little sense for "doesnt care for people or planets, sees a much bigger picture" Nihilus who only comes to Telos for the Jedi Academy.

But due tell me how it actually makes sense for him to want Onderon.

Well, there is one thing... the game does bring it up but never really addresses the connection. Talia, Vaklu, and the whole royal line are descendants of Freedon Nadd. And Freedon Nadd died centuries ago. If the usual laws of genetics are at play here then a significant portion of Onderon's population could trace their ancestry back to a Sith Lord. That would be enough to draw a hungry Nihilus' attention.

 

But as for M4-78, I agree with Zbyl. It's isolated and I really don't think there's any helping it. Obsidian was pretty thorough in their cutting, this time. Nothing else in the game connects to it because they wanted it gone. So I don't think that's a very fair criticism of the mod. It's asking M4-78 to address things it could not possibly address, because all that content was removed or moved elsewhere. In its very conception, M4-78 had to be a new, standalone thing.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Its kinda hard to talk about the past on a planet with no past though.

 

M4-78 has no role to the galaxy till the Sith found it and made it their mini-Star Forge. All OE plot that too.

[Lawkmt3 17]

I didn't mean to start a controversy. The thread does encourage people to share their impressions. I love the MOD, I think the people who made it are amazing, I just wish the story tied into the mythos of KOTOR better. Onderon, Nar Shaada, Dxun tie incredibly well to the first game, and help form the story in TSL. To have this incredible planet, with so much passion and work poured into it, without solid ground in the mythos is slightly disappointing.

[JCarter426 1,220]

Ah, don't worry about it. I get what you're saying. And I agree - it is disconnected from the rest of the game. But... well, what would you do instead?
 
The way I see it, either you'd have to change stuff in other parts of the game, or rewrite M4-78 to have an entirely different origin from the one presented in what little was left in the game files. You could argue maybe one of those things should have been done instead, but in any case, both were beyond the scope of this mod in particular. Even though it was not a restoration in practice, because there wasn't much left to restore, it was meant to be a restoration in spirit - so that meant not directly contradicting anything that was left over, or messing about with other parts of the game (apart from Vash's death on Korriban, obviously). And for better or worse, what was left implied it was a relatively insignificant planet, disconnected from the rest of the galaxy. So that's what we got.

 

But regarding your other point, about not having a big choice to make... well, we started reminiscing about some ideas we had that didn't make it in, and it led to this topic here.

[Sith Holocron 2,480]

I think the scope of the mod should clearly be indicated in the read-me, just so we don't have to have these sorts of discussions.

[adogface 1]

An organic who just murdered all the Sith on the planet, reprogrammed many droids and did many acts of sabotage in the colony. It's not very logical to appoint the person killing all your colonists the new colonist. The player or Republic never harmed M4-78 in a direct way like Vash and Kaah did.

I don't think that what Vash and Kaah did can be called "harm", especially comparing it to the fact that Sith actually turned M4-78 off, and in the end Vash's arrival led to M4-78 being rebooted. A machine megabrain of M4-78's scale should realize this fact and act accordingly, which it does not. He should also understand that killing Vash and Kaah would not help his relationship with player character and his team, who are M4-78's last potential colonists.

 

I don't say that M4-78 should feel friendly to Vash and Kaah but for droids it's all about pragmatism and logic, really. And I'm yet to see any, especially in this particular occasion.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

M4-78 appointed the Sith as colonists, Vash/Kaah then killed them with radiation and had a lot of droids killed off in Environmental. Not sure how that can NOT be called "harm".

He opted the Sith for the good of the colony, and they went and ruined it all. That's... pretty much it. I doubt droids have the human emotion of vanity that turning them off for the greater good is offending them, definitely a main Archon would not.