Markus Ramikin's report on 1.6 - HK factory

[Markus Ramikin 107]

I am isolating this part of the report as a separate post because I see it as the most important one. HK Factory is really the main benefit of having this mod, and I personally LOVE the factory. So I think this should get a lot of focus.

 

Here we go:

 

 

1. HK-50 personality should HAVE to be removed before you proceed with the HK-51 ending.

 

It's the same as in my 1.5 report:

 

Currently it's possible to download the HK-50 personality into yourself and leave it there. And yet you can destroy the console and go on to give the speech to the gathered HK-51s, as based on HK-47 personality. That don't make sense.

 

I think there should be no way to blow up the HK-50 terminal and end the game while you have the HK-50 core downloaded in you. The dialog option should have a check on whether you have the HK-50 personality, and if you do, it just shouldn't be there for the player.

 

This would:

- force you to remove the core before talking to the 51s and ending the factory arc, and

- make sense, since as HK-50 you couldn't harm "yourself" by blowing up the terminal that governs "your" unit type production.

 

 

2. Similar problem with the HK-51 console?

 

Come to think of it, perhaps the option to blow up the HK-51 terminal also shouldn't be there if you've uploaded the HK-47 core into the 51s? For much the same, asimovian reasons. And more importantly: an unfamiliar player who doesn't know how this is supposed to play out optimally would just cut themselves off from content that way.

 

Though I guess the self-preservation program is still disabled then. So maybe that makes some sense technically... but not plot-wise, if you're been working to restart the 51s why would you suddenly blow the console up?

 

 

3. Memory wipe

 

Why does the option to do a full memory wipe exist in the HK factory? Does it affect anything differently than just operating on the self-preservation program?

 

Shouldn't that basically be a non-standard game over? With a full memory wipe, HK would forget his purpose for even coming to the factory and should be unable to complete the level.

 

It seems to me that the only both sensible and necessary option is the one to operate on the self-preservation program. Once HK-47 does that, he doesn't need anything more to be able to fight HK-50s and shut down the factory. IMO the option to do a full memory wipe should be removed.

 

Unless there's something I'm just not getting. In which case, I'd be grateful for an explanation.

 

 

4. increase the role of HK-51s in the Factory?

 

I suggested it before, but then the forums went down.

 

How about make the HK-51s show up earlier. Right now, there is only a short scene where you get to enjoy actually having them on your side. You have to defeat almost all HK-50s alone, and only with the last 3 do you get the 51s to appear.

 

It would be nice if the "slow, crawling feeling of obsolescence" dialogue with the 51s showing up happened earlier. Not because you need them, but so you'd get to enjoy their company for a bit longer.

 

I also miss the opportunity for a bigger 51s vs 50s battle, possibly in the central room. I mean if you look at the map, surely it was made for that sort of a thing, with the opposing HK-50s and HK-51s' wings meeting there.

 

So what I propose is: that the central room should be repopulated, triggered by when you've restarted HK-51s production AND uploaded your behaviour core into them. Them the aforementioned dialogue should happen there. The dialogue triggers, HK-51s show up (maybe more than 3 of them), so we can have a nice battle with HK51s coming in from one wing and 50s from the other.

 

Then 51s help you fight your way to the HK-50 console which you shut down.

 

I realize this is not a small and easy tweak I'm proposing, but it would be bloody awesome. IMHO, anyway; how do you guys like the idea?

Edited August 31, 2010 by Markus Ramikin

[Markus Ramikin 107]

*bump* to go with the other part of the report.

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

Stoney's pretty much happy with the HK factory, so I'm your only shot of a modified HK factory.

 

Currently it's possible to download the HK-50 personality into yourself and leave it there. And yet you can destroy the console and go on to give the speech to the gathered HK-51s, as based on HK-47 personality. That don't make sense.

 

I think there should be no way to blow up the HK-50 terminal and end the game while you have the HK-50 core downloaded in you. The dialog option should have a check on whether you have the HK-50 personality, and if you do, it just shouldn't be there for the player.

 

This would:

- force you to remove the core before talking to the 51s and ending the factory arc, and

- make sense, since as HK-50 you couldn't harm "yourself" by blowing up the terminal that governs "your" unit type production.

 

There is dialog to support this, though I never saw downloading the personality core as a particularly important factor for HK-47 (Which is why I didn't use the dialog). It's not as if HK-47 'becomes' and HK-50 upon downloading the behavior core. (dialog cannot support this). At this point, the self-preservation protocols are already deactivated so it doesn't matter that much.

 

 

2. Similar problem with the HK-51 console?

 

Come to think of it, perhaps the option to blow up the HK-51 terminal also shouldn't be there if you've uploaded the HK-47 core into the 51s? For much the same, asimovian reasons. And more importantly: an unfamiliar player who doesn't know how this is supposed to play out optimally would just cut themselves off from content that way.

 

I'd say that the point isn't necessarily to show the player the most optimized way to play out the HK factory, my goal is the opposite: make the player think about what can be done to get certain results... and it needs more work.

 

Though I guess the self-preservation program is still disabled then. So maybe that makes some sense technically... but not plot-wise, if you're been working to restart the 51s why would you suddenly blow the console up?

 

It makes sense in the context of the player - if the player changes his mind, then HK-47 does too, and that's the best that can be done.

 

 

3. Memory wipe

 

Why does the option to do a full memory wipe exist in the HK factory? Does it affect anything differently than just operating on the self-preservation program?

 

Shouldn't that basically be a non-standard game over? With a full memory wipe, HK would forget his purpose for even coming to the factory and should be unable to complete the level.

 

It seems to me that the only both sensible and necessary option is the one to operate on the self-preservation program. Once HK-47 does that, he doesn't need anything more to be able to fight HK-50s and shut down the factory. IMO the option to do a full memory wipe should be removed.

 

Unless there's something I'm just not getting. In which case, I'd be grateful for an explanation.

 

 

Well, it was an option originally in the original dialog... the best reason I can think of for it being there is Jediphile's and Hassat Hunter's proposed revision.

 

 

 

4. increase the role of HK-51s in the Factory?

 

I suggested it before, but then the forums went down.

 

How about make the HK-51s show up earlier. Right now, there is only a short scene where you get to enjoy actually having them on your side. You have to defeat almost all HK-50s alone, and only with the last 3 do you get the 51s to appear.

 

It would be nice if the "slow, crawling feeling of obsolescence" dialogue with the 51s showing up happened earlier. Not because you need them, but so you'd get to enjoy their company for a bit longer.

 

I also miss the opportunity for a bigger 51s vs 50s battle, possibly in the central room. I mean if you look at the map, surely it was made for that sort of a thing, with the opposing HK-50s and HK-51s' wings meeting there.

 

So what I propose is: that the central room should be repopulated, triggered by when you've restarted HK-51s production AND uploaded your behaviour core into them. Them the aforementioned dialogue should happen there. The dialogue triggers, HK-51s show up (maybe more than 3 of them), so we can have a nice battle with HK51s coming in from one wing and 50s from the other.

 

Then 51s help you fight your way to the HK-50 console which you shut down.

 

I realize this is not a small and easy tweak I'm proposing, but it would be bloody awesome. IMHO, anyway; how do you guys like the idea?

 

I'll have to think about it. The dialog isn't really 'enough' to support an idea like this, but I'll keep it in mind anyways.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Thanks for the response

 

1.

I have to say I'm not sure I understand you, or you me *thinks*.

 

First, the self-preservation protocol being gone is an arguable point. After all, wouldn't the HK-50 core he downloads contain an intact self-preservation protocol? But let's agree on this for the sake of argument. That's not the real issue.

 

The main problem is that when HK-47 downloads the HK-50 personality, it doesn't affect who he is and how he affects the story later on. You say it can't affect it, there isn't dialogue to support it. And that's precisely my point! So it shouldn't be possible to progress the story while that's downloaded. I'm NOT asking for new dialogue that would support the HK-50 personality. I'm just saying precisely because such dialogue doesn't exist, the game should make sure that you can't keep it.

 

To draw an analogy:

There isn't any content in Peragus after it's been blown up, or in Izis after either Talia or Vaklu won - so the option to fly to those places no longer exists on the Ebon Hawk's map. And if it did, someone like me would motion for that option to be removed because it doesn't make sense. You know what I'm saying?

 

Technically all that's needed is that while HK-47 has the 50 personality in him, the option to blow up the terminal should disappear. It's very simple. That way, the only way to finish the level would be to first remove the HK-50 core, thus neatly removing the whole story problem.

 

EDIT: BTW, I think the option to download the core is cool and please don't remove it altogether. It's hilarious to have HK-47 be a HK-50 for a minute and notice "I seem to have no personality whatsoever".

 

2.

Fair enough.

 

3.

*thinks* this is something I can see somewhere? You say it as if I should know what you're talking about.

 

4.

I'm not sure I understand. It would require precisely the same dialog lines as exist now. It would be the same plot and the same lines being spoken, just with an earlier bunch of HK-50s, not the very last ones.

 

Hm, unless by dialog you mean dlg scripting, not actual speech lines? Still not sure why that would be such a limitation... after all, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, this dialogue did used to happen in the main room before...

Edited September 1, 2010 by Markus Ramikin

[VarsityPuppet 1,085]

1.

I have to say I'm not sure I understand you, or you me *thinks*.

 

First, the self-preservation protocol being gone is an arguable point. After all, wouldn't the HK-50 core he downloads contain an intact self-preservation protocol? But let's agree on this for the sake of argument. That's not the real issue.

 

The main problem is that when HK-47 downloads the HK-50 personality, it doesn't affect who he is and how he affects the story later on. You say it can't affect it, there isn't dialogue to support it. And that's precisely my point! So it shouldn't be possible to progress the story while that's downloaded. I'm NOT asking for new dialogue that would support the HK-50 personality. I'm just saying precisely because such dialogue doesn't exist, the game should make sure that you can't keep it.

 

To draw an analogy:

There isn't any content in Peragus after it's been blown up, or in Izis after either Talia or Vaklu won - so the option to fly to those places no longer exists on the Ebon Hawk's map. And if it did, someone like me would motion for that option to be removed because it doesn't make sense. You know what I'm saying?

 

Technically all that's needed is that while HK-47 has the 50 personality in him, the option to blow up the terminal should disappear. It's very simple. That way, the only way to finish the level would be to first remove the HK-50 core, thus neatly removing the whole story problem.

 

EDIT: BTW, I think the option to download the core is cool and please don't remove it altogether. It's hilarious to have HK-47 be a HK-50 for a minute and notice "I seem to have no personality whatsoever".

 

Ah, I see your point. It shall be done.

 

 

3.

*thinks* this is something I can see somewhere? You say it as if I should know what you're talking about.

 

The problem is I don't remember the issue and/or the solution in its entirety: it was pretty much lost on the old site. But I do remember that it was on my list of things to fix... somehow. I'll have to talk to Hassat Hunter a bit more or just go over my PMs more carefully.

 

4.

I'm not sure I understand. It would require precisely the same dialog lines as exist now. It would be the same plot and the same lines being spoken, just with an earlier bunch of HK-50s, not the very last ones.

 

Hm, unless by dialog you mean dlg scripting, not actual speech lines? Still not sure why that would be such a limitation... after all, unless my memory is playing tricks on me, this dialogue did used to happen in the main room before...

 

This is true, but then problems arise with other placing of dialogs and it just gets generally messy. Plus, it's a rather large tweak, and I'm not sure Stoney would be up for so much change. I'm open to ideas and rearranging the HK factory, but I'm rather pressed for time, and like I've said before, Stoney is happy with the current state of the HK factory. Suppose I were to make my ultimate version of the HK factory though, it would probably require operating outside of Stoney's mod jurisdiction, which is certainly possible, it just wouldn't be included in the TSLRCM.

 

To make a long story short: I will not change this aspect of the TSLRCM HK factory.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Original options of the droid.

[VACion 10]

Original options of the droid.

Then i see an obvious plot decision that may have sense: HK-47 do not want to kill any HK-50's in facility himself and instead of removing self-preservation program he only does "delete memory that shutting down reactor can harm the HK units." In case he followed that line I can see a reason for HK-47 to disable communication: if communucations isn't disabled then HK-50's will stop HK-47 from shutting down reactor by informing HK-47 again about "shutting down reactor can harm the HK units". If communications is disabled and HK-47 have no memory about this, then he can shut down reactor without operations on self-preservation program. What is gives? It is obvious! Then HK-47 still have self-preservation program that makes HK-50 can't harm HK-47 as long as he can't harm them and then HK-47 can avoid all battles with HK-50's in second location of the factory. Then he can use HK-51's to destroy HK-50's and he still "do not know", that exploding the console will "harm HK-50's". As for me, it is very good line, as much good as Revan's order to Zaalbar to kill Mission in the end of KOTOR1 on DS XDD.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

You could do that in 1.0, but we kind of deemed that being able to finish the entire factory without shooting a single HK-50 sucked, and defied the reason HK-47 came there in the first place, so that was quickly dropped.

[VACion 10]

Hassat Hunter so it is not restored at moment? But witout it i can't see sense to disabling communications...

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Ah, I see your point. It shall be done.

Awesome. Within RCM, I hope?

 

This is true, but then problems arise with other placing of dialogs and it just gets generally messy. Plus, it's a rather large tweak, and I'm not sure Stoney would be up for so much change. I'm open to ideas and rearranging the HK factory, but I'm rather pressed for time, and like I've said before, Stoney is happy with the current state of the HK factory. Suppose I were to make my ultimate version of the HK factory though, it would probably require operating outside of Stoney's mod jurisdiction, which is certainly possible, it just wouldn't be included in the TSLRCM.

 

To make a long story short: I will not change this aspect of the TSLRCM HK factory.

 

A shame. The "slow, crawling feeling of obsolescence" would be more satisfactorily slow if the HK-50s had some time to experience it and savor it *cruel smile* rather than it starting right before the last 3 active ones are destroyed. But yeah, I understand. Thanks for the response, anyway!

 

Hm, I should take a look at 1.4 again, I'm pretty sure that version actually had it somewhat close to what I am proposing... or was it 1.2...

 

You could do that in 1.0, but we kind of deemed that being able to finish the entire factory without shooting a single HK-50 sucked, and defied the reason HK-47 came there in the first place, so that was quickly dropped.

Good, I'm glad it was changed. It would have been pretty unconvincing logic to let you do that anyway, HK-50s should have been able to stop you by talking to you.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Markus Ramikin

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Hassat Hunter so it is not restored at moment? But witout it i can't see sense to disabling communications...

I have no idea what you're talking about.

or was it 1.2...

Unless you were a beta-tester (and I don't think you are) it's unlikely you played 1.2.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

It was a public beta I think. Could be remembering wrong, though.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Nope, first was 1.4.

[Sith Holocron 2,453]

You could do that in 1.0, but we kind of deemed that being able to finish the entire factory without shooting a single HK-50 sucked, and defied the reason HK-47 came there in the first place, so that was quickly dropped.

 

I like the idea that there's more than one way to complete the mission. I'd vote for putting this back in as an option.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

It was bad. Why do you think we dropped it?