Kreia, what are you - are you a Jedi, a Sith?

[ttlan 18]

Hi,

 

In the animation, when Kreia suggests at the Exile that she is not Sith or Jedi, but both at once

 

"Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it.

 

Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."

 

The commentary knows an end :

 

StrRef 119934

"I was cast down. Stripped of my power. Exiled."

 

But, in the dialog, there is an alternate end (noted as "alternate") that will never be reached :

 

StrRef 119933

"{Alternate}I did not wish to kill you, so they cast me down. Stripped me of my power. Exiled me. "

 

I have not found any trace of an attack of Darth traya by Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus in which they ask Darth traya to kill the Exile.

 

Did I miss something and is there something to restore here (or is there no material left for that) ?

 

TTLan

[Logan23 205]

StrRef 119933

"{Alternate}I did not wish to kill you, so they cast me down. Stripped me of my power. Exiled me. "

 

I have not found any trace of an attack of Darth traya by Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus in which they ask Darth traya to kill the Exile.

 

I'm assuming this is content which was written but like the Atris being the final boss was removed since it would cause confusion.

 

I can see why they would remove this line since it would make the whole focus of the two Sith lords to kill the Exile not the Jedi as a whole.

 

Also as a story telling point it creates more mystery by not telling the player exactly why she was casted down since if the player was told this then the player can either agree or disagrees with the reason which would could lead to the player breaking from the story since the reason was not a justified or believable one.

 

As for what Kreia was...she got it right she was neither in her eyes but if you ask others they would call her one or the other due to their views on her actions during the game.

 

It is more powerful sometimes not to have a title since your enemy can not make a judgment on you and could be defeated by their own inner fears of the person or be taken by surprise by underestimating them.

 

Logan

[bead-v 251]

Well the Sith at that point were killing all the Jedi right? At one point the Exile was pointed out as the last of the Jedi to the Sith by Atris.. And the Exile is special to Kreia, as we all know, so she would not allow the others to kill her. Sion and Nihilus probably saw that as weakness and exiled her... And yes, there was no scene intended to show the dispute, this cutscene can be unlocked early in the game and therefore couldn't reveal too much information.. that's why they cut the other line too, I think, it would have given away too much too soon.

 

Oh and one small note to finally correct this big misconception: Atris being the final boss was never intended, it's a misconception due to Atris speaking some of Kreia's lines on Malachor, but that was probably because of a confusion at Obsidian, since both voice actresses played the character 'Darth Traya'.

Edited August 29, 2010 by bead-v
rewording

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Eh, it definitely was planned like that in an early draft.

 

And some of the best lines on Malachor... are spoken by Atris .

[ttlan 18]

Hi,

 

Sion and Nihilus probably saw that as weakness and exiled her...

 

Darth Traya has never been exiled by Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus.

 

This is one of the fundamental errors in the interpretation of Kotor 2.

 

Darth traya tells this and lie to the Exile to be "adopted" by presenting her as a double exile.

 

She plays, from the beginning, with the natural compassion of the Exiled that she studied for nearly 10 years.

 

When have you seen Sith Lords exile one of their members to take his place? They kill, that's all.

 

When starting Kotor 2, she fled an attempted murder which she was the victim.

 

Also as a story telling point it creates more mystery by not telling the player exactly

 

this cutscene can be unlocked early in the game and therefore couldn't reveal too much information.. that's why they cut the other line too, I think, it would have given away too much too soon.

 

I completely agree with previous comments about the mystery that must be maintained. And in this regard, Obsidian is very strong! Only "unspoken" almost all thru the game! A wonder!

 

TTLan

Edited August 29, 2010 by ttlan

[bead-v 251]

Eh, it definitely was planned like that in an early draft.

 

And some of the best lines on Malachor... are spoken by Atris .

 

If this really is so, I'd like to know where you got this from. At any rate, 0 content of that is left in the games, and the game must have been preety different at the time this was planned. It's preety much like that devaronian Dvakvar or whatever he was.

 

Darth Traya has never been exiled by Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus.

 

This is one of the fundamental errors in the interpretation of Kotor 2.

 

Darth traya tells this and lie to the Exile to be "adopted" by presenting her as a double exile.

 

She plays, from the beginning, with the natural compassion of the Exiled that she studied for nearly 10 years.

 

When have you seen Sith Lords exile one of their members to take his place? They kill, that's all.

 

When starting Kotor 2, she fled an attempted murder which she was the victim.

"There is more. Darth Traya yet lives. You did not kill her, as you assumed. "

They did want to kill her, but she survived, although she was cut off from the force in the proces, which is why she isn't a super strong force user when she joins your party.

 

Anyways, the closest idea to what happened to Kreia is exile, that's why the word is used. But I do think she told this to the exile to make him/her think they aren't so different.

[ttlan 18]

Hi,

 

I am cautious about the temporary lost of her powers by the one who still is, for a few minutes, Darth Traya.

 

I admit she has a stroke of fatigue due to the attack which she suffered (but not due to his age because it's the Dark Side who has damaged her flesh but I think she is much younger than that she does appear).

 

At Peragus, before leaving her trance, she manages to reach the spirit of the Exiled even as the Exile still is in a coma!

 

Upon awakening she reads your thoughts and those of Atton located at a distance. She tracks your progress and sees your entire environment and guides you.

 

I think she plays the old lady, as she plays at the exiled but that she is not at all an old lady with lowered powers.

 

It is a wonderful actress and, I agree, by far the most important character of K2 and the more "worked" by Obsidian.

 

TTLan

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Yeah this looks like early content that was dropped for a reason.

[cdstephens 10]

Kreia is through and through a Sith. Before the Rule of Two is established, you can't really be "exiled" from the Sith Order. It's a kill or be killed business, and your not really initiated as your are in the Jedi Order. Saying she isn't Sith is like saying Darth Krayt isn't Sith. Her personality, her teachings, her beliefs, and her actions all point to her being a Sith. I've seen some people a while back on different forums argue that Revan isn't a Sith either, which is now known to not be true.

 

BW's TOR puts this in a new light; a lot of people thought of Revan as a "fake" Sith of sorts, due to Kreia describing the Sith in the Unknown Regions as the "True Sith". This is of course nullified by the fact that Revan and Malak were sent by the Sith Emperor to conquer the Republic, so for all intends and purposes they were Sith.

 

Yes, this also means that Kreia was dead wrong when she was hero worshiping Revan and proclaiming he never really fell to the dark side, but only did so for the greater good. Revan for the most part was a pawn; first he was a pawn of the Emperor, and then he was a pawn of the Jedi. Perhaps Revan had different motives in mind when conquering the Republic; he may have planned to turn against the Emperor. There is barely any evidence suggesting he would do such a thing besides the fact that the Sith betray each other all the time (see Malak vs. Revan). If Revan were going to betray the Emperor, it would have been for selfish reasons, not to "save" the Galaxy. Interesting to note that Revan was never really proven to be a strategic genius; beat the Mandalorians when he outnumbered them 5 to 1. Kudos.

 

It's also important to note that Kreia is a compulsive liar (Lord of Betrayal....). Anything she says should be taken with a grain of salt because she's a Sith.

 

<<< This guy spends way too much time on the TOR forums.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

I object. Hero-worshiping Revan can never be wrong.

/blatant and unashamed fanboy

 

Also I refuse to take TOR 100% seriously as a source of information related to things in Kotor 2. Different company, different writer. It may be canon, but to me it's kinda like Dune books that are not by Frank Herbert. Or for that matter, Star Wars prequel films. All they have in common is that I quite prefer being able to answer the loose ends that are in the original stories with my own thinking and my own speculation, rather than with what they hand me down.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Markus Ramikin

[cdstephens 10]

I object. Hero-worshiping Revan can never be wrong.

/blatant and unashamed fanboy

 

Also I refuse to take TOR 100% seriously as a source of information related to things in Kotor 2. Different company, different writer. It may be canon, but to me it's kinda like Dune books that are not by Frank Herbert. Or for that matter, Star Wars prequel films. All they have in common is that I quite prefer being able to answer the loose ends that are in the original stories with my own thinking and my own speculation, rather than with what they hand me down.

 

Well, first off it's BW writing the story for TOR. They kinda made Revan, and are awesome with story, so....

 

Secondly, they're not retconning anything in KOTOR I or II at all. Kreia wasn't really trustworthy anyways, and all her thoughts were just her own speculation after all.

 

I do kinda agree that I would rather have some of Revan's fate be left a mystery...unfortunately, considering BW's new trailer, Star Wars: The Old Republic | Trailers, I doubt this will be the case.

 

Also note that while they were making KOTOR 3, they were still planning on making a Sith Empire, but instead of the current one, Naga Sadow's I think

 

/blatant and unashamed BW fanboy

[Markus Ramikin 107]

Ugh. That was an unpleasant ending to the trailer. They couldn't afford the old HK voice actor?

 

And yeah. As a fan/consumer I'm going to exercise my right to simply ignore their contributions to the story if they end up something I don't like, and treat Kotor 2 as a self-contained whole.

[cdstephens 10]

Ugh. That was an unpleasant ending to the trailer. They couldn't afford the old HK voice actor?

 

Same voice actor actually, from what I've heard. Actor's probably higher pitched because a) voices change a little from game to game (compare HK in KOTOR 1 to KOTOR 2) and protecting Revan's junk is srs bsns, and c) HK is just about ready to wipe the group with homicidal glee. Kinda hard to base it on 3 words.

[Markus Ramikin 107]

and protecting Revan's junk is srs bsns

Okay, I'll give you that, at least you're using the right pitch with me.