Mutilator57

You can try to present logical, sustained and compelling arguments arguing sensibly at the flaws in his beloved 'TFA' and he will still find a way to ignore them and personally insult you while he does so. Just look at HH and my *numerous* posts a few pages back. And while we're on it who really thinks that the Box Office is any way to grade a movie?! I mean does anyone really believe that a movie like Avatar is little more than a glorified Dancing with Wolves in space? Now that that's set aside, I really feel that the future for the new trilogy lies in really getting to flesh out everyone's characters in no. 8, just like they did in ESB. If we take the starting point as Rey then I think they should try to delve deeper into her prodigious abilities and develop the resulting challenges that presents her, both physically and emotionally. Hopefully they will avoid an explanation analogous to the 'Chosen One' cop-out and I must admit, I do think the idea that she might have once been Luke's apprentice is appropriate if done properly.

On this we agree, I thought the death of Han was a masterpiece - made the movie much more emotionally-gripping and I was glad that it did not disappoint in this regard.

I suppose I am exaggerating this too huh? *EDIT* Obviously Doctor Evil has taken a personal affront to what I have said with purported attacks on his 'integrity' as he puts it. To avoid further hurting his feelings and to spare myself from his repeated arrogance and condescension (of which there are so many examples I could fill this thread to the brim) I consider the matter closed. Evidently, we will never come to an agreement and it is pointless to argue any further. Whose the angry one now? Your comments speak for themselves. I always quote fully and directly from what you said, if you have to clarify what you were talking about then your original comments were faulty to begin with. Well aren't you the arrogant one! I think this speaks for itself.

This is getting off-track. This will be my last response on the issue, case closed. I never said it was a minor footnote, you need to to go back and read what I said and stop overreacting to what I say. Of course it is important, my point was that it was not analogous to ANH since there were other plot elements that took precedence and is even stated in the game itself!. You don't believe me in this? Fine, I'll quote directly from the game. 'Bastila's power could help you win this battle admiral, but it will mean nothing if Malak escapes. Destroying the Star Forge is secondary to stopping the Sith threat once and for all'.

Well I can't attest to the veracity of those claims as I wasn't around then. For my ally are the numerous sources which reinforce my position. The most clear of which was that behind the scenes documentary on the OT done back in 04 where it is repeatedly mentioned that the cinema of the 70s was what I said it was like. Nevertheless, I never said it had never been done, I actually specifically mentioned that it had been used in the preceding decades, was left and then returned with Star Wars. The point I was trying to make is that it is all about CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT! That in the context of the 70s it wasn't a cliched story. Of course you weren't but that's how I interpreted it.

No, relevant above all. My point was that it wasn't a cliched story, hence my reference and emphasis on context. It only seems cliched in retrospect because in all the years subsequent, these kinds of stories have become more popular. It wasn't my intention to start a 'whose the bigger SW fan argument'; it was your patronising tone which I was objecting to. Indeed it has. But I preferred the way they were depicted in the EU rather than their silly characterisation in Rebels. Nevertheless, my point was yes they may have used the EU, but have they used it well? I think not. Merely using the EU (poorly I might add) is not enough to justify their rubbishing of it. On the contrary, I'd argue that it was far less important in the KotOR plot. Even Master Vandar in the endgame states that destroying the Star Forge is the secondary objective to stopping the Sith, destroying Malak being the first. Similarities to ANH? Yes. 'Rehash' or 'effective clone' like TFA? Most certainly not.

This! So true!

Not true. The main issue I have with the prequels is in actual fact the ideas. When Darth Vader was used in the OT he was part of a larger story. He was NOT space Jesus - that was an absurd idea and Lucas deserves all the flak he gets for it.

You've got me all figured out

Your point was that it used '...the grandaddy of cliched story-lines...' and thus took something we'd seen and it worked well. My point about the context was meant to illustrate that it actually wasn't something we'd seen, or at least, not something seen in that era of cinema and that's why it worked. It defied expectations. And am I to suppose that you are an erudite when it comes to knowledge of the EU? That you know something more than people who actually like and wanted to keep the EU? No offence intended of course I can assure you I know the EU quite well so your concern is unfounded. Nevertheless, I have said it again and again and again, just because some of the EU was flawed does NOT mean it needed to all be chucked. Besides, as my learned colleague pointed out earlier, how do we know what was good and what wasn't, it's all subjective right? Just like your figure of a fourth of the EU which is entirely your opinion. As for Rebels, you've got to be joking. I want the EU to be used, not massacred by its inclusion in this IMO sad-excuse for a television show!

If you actually look at the context of the 70s ANH was actually atypical of its time. The movies of the 70s were one's filled with antiheroes and tragic endings, ANH was actually the first of a new generation of films that reverted to the old monomyth formula. As for the EU all I can do is keep repeating what I have been saying, just because of junk like what you've mentioned doesn't mean it all had to be thrown away, that's the beauty of a creative universe, writers are free to take their own risks with stories. Sometimes they produce junk, but sometimes they make masterpieces. One need only look to KotOR as an example.

Just to clarify, I didn't hate the movie, I thought it was great! I just thought that there were some issues that could be addressed and avoided in the next movie is all I agree with you. When he addressed his soldiers its like listening to the Nuremberg Rally or something, really frothing-at-the-mouth. It is good that they have used parts of the EU and I am hopeful that they will, but I wished I shared your faith... Exactly. I would have preferred to keep ALL of it rather than throw it all out.

I can agree with that, although as you've probably discovered I HATE being patronised so lets avoid doing it to each other and we can get along swell! That's why I used the word 'relatively'. Of course there were mistakes, flaws, things that were downright laughable. Nevertheless, chucking the baby out with the bathwater was IMO a mistake because whilst all of the EU content is still there to draw upon as you say, in practice however, I doubt that they will use much of it.

You read into my post whatever you like, all I can say is that I haven't even the faintest whiff of anger at the current predicament, more like disappointment. FYI I don't need your 'credit' and would prefer it if you didn't patronise me, this was the holier than thou (arrogant) attitude that HH referred to earlier. Allow me to conclude that your opinion of the EU is not shared by many SW fans and a few bad apples don't warrant throwing out the whole bushel basket. Although I do agree with you on one thing; at the very least a solid foundation has been laid for the remainder of the trilogy, so we should discuss that with (hopefully) the same rigor and enthusiasm! I'm expressing my disappointment at the current situation. Is my rhetoric colourful? Yes of course, it is a reflection of what I feel is a mistake for the SW franchise. My issue with the EU being (decanonised?) is that whilst of course it is still enjoyable, it no longer fits into a relatively cohesive whole which other writers could draw upon. In its current state, it is little better than fan-fiction.

Rehash: reuse (of old ideas or material) without significant change or improvement. A worthy premise of my description of CLONE! No no no, the EU does not only refer to what is after ROTJ, but everything outside the movies, tv-shows etc. If what they did was merely dispose of the EU following ROTJ then that would have been upsetting, but far more manageable than what they have perpetrated upon SW fans now. They have removed all EU! So all the great Old Republic stories too, even though they're not likely to touch that era again. All I can say is that they better make damn good movies to justify this devastation and so far, I have been disappointed. No you didn't say all SW fans, but you didn't need to because you didn't (until now) make the distinction. You implied most SW fans were like the way you described all the way until now. Because if Luke has disappeared then why bother even looking for him? Why waste time searching for someone missing for ~ 30 years instead of actually fighting the Empire First Order directly? The explanation you have provided is sound, but incredibly convoluted which is what led me to my conclusion about it being weak. By all means I agree with you, in-universe the superweapon makes plenty of sense. But for the plot of a movie, which is what we're discussing, it screams weak and lazy since it has been done before in-universe an incredible amount of times! Not because it leaves me with questions, on the contrary; good movies should have cliffhangers, they're thrilling. My point is that the lack of explanation about CRUCIAL elements of the plot is the movie's downfall, they exchanged careful elaboration on the plot and state of the galaxy for a frenetic pace that leaves too many questions. It is not a good thing when we don't even know anything about the Republic, so when they're destroyed, it had the effect of a needle-prick because I was not emotionally-invested in their cause because we knew nothing about them and their struggle! You oversimplify the backstory, everything you describe is easily ascertained. I am talking about some of the deeper, but still absolutely necessary questions about the state of the galaxy. All you have done is proved my point, it was their fear and insecurity which led them to their creative choices. I completely understand that this is merely the first installment, but the parallels to the OT are so prevalent and profound that there are seldom few differences. Of course it is common for films to *reference* past movies and *allude* to past events, yet in TFA, it was more than that, the entire story could have been slotted into an ANH setting and you would struggle to tell the difference!! I'll show you an image that highlights just how similar they are if I can find it. *EDIT* Found the image

'Spiritual rehash', what a euphemistic way of screaming CLONE! Has it occurred to you what forum you're on!? You call the EU a 'pile of trash', exclude all but two story arcs but neglect to mention the Old Republic, the sheer arrogance! You also contradict yourself, you say it 'borrows heavily' and then go on to say that it is not 'effectively a clone', do you know what effectively means? Again your typecasting of SW fans is heavily flawed and incorrect. IMO I'm saying it was weak. Of course it was the central premise of the entire movie, but what I was saying was that it was a weak plot for a movie because it is never well-established why it is so damn important to find him! If that had been the case then there would have been no need for another silly superweapon! You misunderstand. Herein lies the problem, an issue that could have easily-been resolved but WASN'T. It is not about a silver platter, its movie-making 101, a backstory should be EXPLAINED. If this movie needs another to make sense then it has profound flaws as whilst the originals were of course, created to be understood in a trilogy, the difference was that they ALL WORKED ALONE WELL. So its our fault that we have expectations befitting of the SW universe? Perverse logic indeed. You act as though the choices of the film's creators were not their own, yet all the way through they *chose* to play it safe, all of the opportunities for them to make something new were there in front of them, more so considering their devastation of the EU. What are you failing to understand in my arguments? I am angry because it is old and used, its creative potential wasted. If they had used the plot of another movie (Avatar using Dances with Wolves for example) that would be another matter, but using almost the exact same story within their own universe, worse, within their own movie trilogies is simply lazy and poor writing.

But don't you see that is the problem? They played it so safe that they ended up creating effectively a clone. By the way I reject wholeheartedly your typecasting of SW fans. We're not critical of everything, we just expect that when you throw out over 30 years of content that you replace it with something that is at least a tad unique. Otherwise, what was the point of getting rid of all those perfectly good stories that could have worked fine, Thrawn, the Emperor Reborn... The issue here was the premise of finding Luke was really weak and never well-established. In the end, it felt like the scriptwriters realised this and tried to compensate by inserting a completely unnecessary superweapon into the movie. If the finding Luke arc was so good, would it not be good enough to stand on its own? Believe you me, I thought this too and speculated wildly. But if it takes another movie to resolve what should be a simple explanation of the state of the galaxy, easily discussed in a single line of expository dialogue then the movie has issues.

The entire premise of trashing the EU was to remove the shackles and story restrictions that this imposed on the new trilogy. If they used that opportunity to make a movie which was effectively a rehash of another classic, with parralels, allusions and references as far as the eye can see then I think it's safe to say that they played it *too* safe and I would venture to say, wasted the opportunity. Nail on the head, although I felt even in ROTJ it was stretching it a little thin. They got around this however, by revolving the story around not the super weapon but around Luke, his father and the Emperor. Exactly. I had no emotional involvement in the Republic's (demise?). While were on it too, what was the purpose of differentiating the Resistance and Republic - had me scratching my head the entire movie.

I thoroughly agree. I had been wondering how they would introduce the movie impactfully without emulating the classic New Hope intro. I was not disappointed! In terms of the story however, I had my issues particularity with the way the First Order was portrayed. I get that their meant to be evil and all, but characterising them as frothing-at-the-mouth villains, exemplified especially by the dramatic speech by the General to all of the stormtroopers, was unnecessary and made the overall tone and characters seem a bit flat and one-dimensional.

I thoroughly concur. I went on a total media blackout so I went in to the cinema with a very rudimentary idea of what the plot/characters would be like. I don't know, I just thought the film was perhaps a little *too* safe.

A strong and solid addition to the Star Wars universe to be sure. Nevertheless, I felt in some instances there was a lack of expository dialogue and background in favour of maintaining and sustaining the frenetic pace of the movie. In my opinion, it seems that Abrams was so scared of emulating the failures of the prequel trilogy in creating convoluted and silly plots that he actually did not explain and elaborate on the story enough.

Awesome stuff here, loving the new updates!

Considering the time and resources it would take to implement those ideas, I still think an aquarium is the best, most efficient choice to showcase Manaan's aquatic life.

I think the aquarium animation is particularly apt considering Manaan is a water world! In any event, great work as usual

Quality stuff here!