The Workshed

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

So I started working on a Visas Marr outfit. The idea is a very elegant, assassin. An arbiter of the lord of hunger.
So I liked the Gold Motiff on her hood and wanted to expand it.

So, working from a base mesh I did back in 2015 I was able to work down to about 1k triangles for the body. I'll probably modify that later and see how close we can get to 500.
I still need to tweak the shoulders and get that padded shoulder look. Though I think that at rest, it will look better. This is the right height and centering for Visas approximately.




She is UV'd, but that should make it easier for me as I move forward. I need to see the textures to know where I can get away with less polys. Clearly right now the curviest areas are the thighs, hips, butt and shoulders so taking out some density there would help.


So this is just preliminary texturing. Just laying out the basic forms. When I export the texture maps to photoshop I like to go over these patterns in illustrator and make sure they're really clean before putting them into photoshop for additional texturing.

So here's the process I'm working on:

Finish preliminary texturing
Illustrator Pattern Cleanup
Photoshop aa and smoothing
Substance painter shading and light baking
Reworking triangles in Maya
Additional texture cleanup
Final tweaks
Rigging and weighting.

Now, I'm not sure, I could be totally wrong, but this is doable with the game, right? Otherwise, I'll just do this as a high poly art piece.
In hindsight I should have asked first. :|


http://jeromyperez.imgur.com/all/

Additionally check out my imgur for all the other textures I'm working on as I've got a hi resolution B4D4, Ithorians and FX that I've got anywhere from 100% to 50% done.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Alan The Magic Goose

[Guest]

Woo!

 

Looking forward to it.

[DarthParametric 3,790]

Now, I'm not sure, I could be totally wrong, but this is doable with the game, right?

There should be no insurmountable problems. You don't need to limit yourself to a measly 500 polys. The only thing the engine really freaks out over is shadow casting meshes above around ~1,000 tris. Typically you just use the skeleton as the shadow caster, so that's usually a non-issue for characters. But if you have something like a dress, you may want to make a low poly shadow caster as well (doesn't get rendered). The other thing to note is that the game does not seem to like single mesh bodies very much, so after you have your skinning finalised you'll want to split off the arms as separate meshes, so it's useful to plan for that ahead of time regarding things like UV seams. On the subject of skinning, you are restricted to only four weights per vert. If you are using Max you can set that limit in the Skin modifier.

 

The primary issue you'll likely come up against is that the current publicly available model compiling tools are somewhat flawed. There are some new ones on the horizon that resolve pretty much all the problems though.

 

Edit: Oh, and a note on smoothing. The game requires models have the number of texture verts equalling the number of geometry verts. The current public version of MDLOps doesn't handle this very elegantly, so you are likely going to want to manually detach all your UV islands to sub-meshes (or find a script to do it). This is going to give you a hard seam along your UV boundaries, so again, plan your UV layout accordingly.

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

So I won't lie, I panicked after I read the caution about the UV Islands, but then I checked them and I realized that I already separated them according to body parts. In hindsight, it might have made sense to split the UVs to top half of body and bottom half. But as is I don't think it will be noticeable once the islands are split to separate mesh components.

But I did manage to do an normal sculpt (I don't know if the game uses normals or just diffuse and spec maps) that could also be altered for diffuse details.



So the preliminary textures are done. Just need to port them over to Illustrator for redoing. I do believe that the hardest part may be the refining stage. I'm tempted to just do a filter to get the highlights right such as an emboss layer effect in Photoshop. But I may hand paint it in Substance. I don't know if there's a community standard on that.

But ultimately I'm thinking the red bits should have a leather texture while the dark red (soon to be almost black) should have a more velvet texture.

I'm open to suggestions. But currently, the model is looking about right.

For anyone who's interested, the texture maps I'll make available here:
http://i.imgur.com/1Vdq5UM.png
http://i.imgur.com/TS2430Z.png

The problems I'm forseeing could be in properly skinning and weighting the mesh. As I'm pretty clumsy in that regard. But if there's a method that is most agreeable for doing so in Maya, 3DsMax or (God help me) blender, then I'm willing to get schooled on some real world stuff.

Also, is it necessary to bind the mesh to the animated volumes?

I'm glad there's not a poly limit. I'll still try to reduce it by a couple hundred as best I can just for performance' sake.

[DarthParametric 3,790]

If you are using Substance Painter, there should be minimal need for Photoshop aside from final texture collation and the odd touch-up. I not sure why you'd be using Illustrator either way, it's not typically used for this sort of thing (and the end result will have to be rasterised anyway).

 

While the game can use normal maps, its implementation is fairly basic, and the tools to create a functional normal map the game will accept are not yet publicly available. However, even if you are not doing a high poly bake, you'll want at least a normal map for Substance Painter to work with anyway, so I would proceed along that path. Seeing as Substance is intended for PBR, you'll also want an AO map that you can overlay on the final albedo. That may also be where you need to add a bit of manual touch-up in PS.

 

In order to export your model in a format that can be compiled, you'll need to use one of the export scripts in either Max/GMax or Blender. I'm not sure what the current state of the Blender script is. The problem with trying to skin it in Maya is that KOTOR doesn't use a modern bone system, it uses meshes as bones. As such, if you can deal with Max then your best bet would be to skin directly to the rig in there, rather than try and deal with moving between programs.

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

So before anyone panics, this isn't the final texture or anything close to it. I wanted to see what the distortion would be looking like. So ultimately I may I need to reimport to Zbrush to get the AO effect that I want unless I can manage to make it work in Substance. Though I never really used it for embellishments like this.

So, as I've said, the red parts will be raised as if they were fabric laid over the top of the black.

I also downloaded some brushes to help with wear and tear. I took some screens just to show the effect, but in Substance is where I'll be painting all the metal.



The fingers don't look too bad for like a 30 second brush job. But the actual hand plate is pretty weak. Thankfully I'm not worrying about it now.


The gloves on the other hand look pretty close to what I actually want. I may do some texturing on the fingertips to give it a sort of basketball bumpy texture and I'm thinking black?



Any tips on how to add spoilers to a post by the way? I'd prefer not to have these long scrolling posts.

Also, I use Illustrator really just for clothing. It's because my tablet has a slight latency. It's pretty gross. So with Illustrator I have greater control and the crisp lines I feel look better. Ultimately it looks better and saves time.

 

[DarthParametric 3,790]

You can use

[spoiler]  [/spoiler]

Substance can bake out your normal, AO, etc., but only if you have a high poly source for it to generate from. If you are not sculpting in ZBrush or the like, you may be stuck with more rudimentary solutions.

 

I would suggest you not get too caught up in super-fine details. They probably won't show up very well in the game. It's probably worth doing some in-game sample tests first.

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

So, I worked on the textures for almost the whole day.
But here we got some of the results.

Also, I'm planning on releasing this with either the 2k textures or a reduced size version to about 25%. But I'll definitely do more than just a simple resize.
So the fine details, even when they are reduced will hopefully still be readable. So when it's resized you should be able to visually infer the information in the lower resolution.

I did the Normals, AO, and cavity maps in Zbrush, thankfully it wasn't a long computation for the most part


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Also, the metal stands out now but still fits the brownish metal that I wanted earlier.
I haven't quite gotten to the straps, but I was thinking about doing it as separate meshes. Thoughts?
So the black parts have a velvet look and the red has a highly textu

 

 

[/spoiler

 

Also, thanks for all the tips and tricks, it really has been super helpful.
I split all the UV islands to sub meshes. So I'm going to attempt to skin and weight. Without the typical bone system, I don't know how to bind the new mesh to the volumes.

If there's a tutorial on that, I could use a recommendation.

Also, thoughts on doing like a "Kreia's Assorted Robes" for this new mesh? So, multiple reskins for different armor sets?

[DarthParametric 3,790]

I would recommend getting your head around how the Max/GMax KOTOR I/O script, NWMax, works. You can import an existing model and skin to that rig. I'm guessing your first issue is going to be aligning your body to the rig if you didn't use an existing KOTOR body as a basis.

 

You'll also want to look into how KOTOR deals with body models. You are highly restricted because the game sets a single model per armour class, and can only use texture variants for that class. So, for example, if you wanted to use your model as Master Robes, then all other Master Robe variants would use the same model, and expect a specific numbered texture variant thereof (only for Visas though, if that's who you are assigning it to). The only way to get around the limitation for unique models is to go the disguise route (in the same vein as the space suit, Sith trooper armour, etc.), but that has issues of its own.

[superSzym 155]

I'd rather go with simple Visas clothing replacement.

[Guest]

Nah, it shouldn't be a replacement but a separate drop.

[Sith Holocron 2,479]

Liking what I am seeing so far but I think it could use some more gold accents.

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

I would recommend getting your head around how the Max/GMax KOTOR I/O script, NWMax, works. You can import an existing model and skin to that rig. I'm guessing your first issue is going to be aligning your body to the rig if you didn't use an existing KOTOR body as a basis.

 

You'll also want to look into how KOTOR deals with body models. You are highly restricted because the game sets a single model per armour class, and can only use texture variants for that class. So, for example, if you wanted to use your model as Master Robes, then all other Master Robe variants would use the same model, and expect a specific numbered texture variant thereof (only for Visas though, if that's who you are assigning it to). The only way to get around the limitation for unique models is to go the disguise route (in the same vein as the space suit, Sith trooper armour, etc.), but that has issues of its own.

Where are these scripts? Or are you referring to the import scripts? I found that many of the scripts for Max importing are outdated or no longer supported by current versions of Max. So reluctantly I imported to Blender then exported as an FBX. There's a lot of data there so it takes a minute to compute that.

 

And I was thinking about just having this set be a Visas robes replacement, though we'll see if that's desirable or maybe someone with some know-how might be able to show me how to make it a quest.

 

And I'd rather not do the disguise if I can help it. Haha.

 

I'd rather go with simple Visas clothing replacement.

So versus an option like a Kreia's Assorted Robes option with variations of this set? If that's the preference I can do a simple replacement no problemo.

 

Nah, it shouldn't be a replacement but a separate drop.

So, you mean as a random item for Visas or as a separate armor class usable for females? I'm kind of confused on that.

 

Liking what I am seeing so far but I think it could use some more gold accents.

Thanks! I'd agree, it could use more gold. I'm having a hard time of identifying where though. Any suggestions, and feel free to draw on my screenshots if it helps.

 

I'm done working on it for today, but hopefully by Saturday or Sunday, we may be able to start game testing.

[Sith Holocron 2,479]

I hope this helps.

 

 

BTW, is the upper arm a little longer than one a a typical human body?  (Before the peanut gallery chimes in: Yes, I know she's a Miraluka.)

[superSzym 155]

So versus an option like a Kreia's Assorted Robes option with variations of this set? If that's the preference I can do a simple replacement no problemo.

I'm just an user of Visas Unmasked (which also makes robes appear on Visas like they do on player character) and I'm not sure if making the "assorted robes" would be possible in terms of installation, as Visas Unmasked uses a custom appearance.2da row for Visas that would have a different number for everyone. Also, if you want the suit to be a custom item, body model L is free, but then it would require to make a new row in baseitems.2da, as she usually cannot wear dancer's outfit and it would also make the mod incompatible with Visas dancing ones.

[Guest]

All I meant was that this should not replace her default outfit, but rather be an item in her Footlocker in her room.

Visa's Assassin garb or something like that.

[DarthParametric 3,790]

Where are these scripts?

Use the Sticky, young Padawan: http://deadlystream.com/forum/topic/3875-nwmax-plug-in-for-3dsmax-2014/

 

You'll need to decompile one of the vanilla models using MDLOps, then use NWMax to import the ASCII model into Max. That will give you a rig to skin to. When you are finished you can export a new ASCII model, then compile it back to a binary game format with MDLOps.

[superSzym 155]

All I meant was that this should not replace her default outfit, but rather be an item in her Footlocker in her room.

Visa's Assassin garb or something like that.

You mean her room on the Ravager? That would be pretty late in game. I would rather go with a footlocker in her room in the Ebon Hawk (if there's one) or attach it to visasarrives.ncs like VarsityPuppet did with her veil. Also, I think that it would be a good idea to replace L model instead of disguise. This would make that mod incompatible with "dancing Visas" mods, but asking Visas to dance is the only point where we see her refusing to do something and not making us forget that she is a human being with free will. Also, that's a pretty good line of voiced dialogue. The exile has also other companions that can dance, so incompatibility with such mods would not be a really big problem.

[Guest]

You mean her room on the Ravager? That would be pretty late in game. I would rather go with a footlocker in her room in the Ebon Hawk (if there's one) or attach it to visasarrives.ncs like VarsityPuppet did with her veil. Also, I think that it would be a good idea to replace L model instead of disguise. This would make that mod incompatible with "dancing Visas" mods, but asking Visas to dance is the only point where we see her refusing to do something and not making us forget that she is a human being with free will. Also, that's a pretty good line of voiced dialogue. The exile has also other companions that can dance, so incompatibility with such mods would not be a really big problem.

I agree, I, I.

[DarthParametric 3,790]

I think that it would be a good idea to replace L model instead of disguise.

J is probably a better choice.

[superSzym 155]

J is probably a better choice.

Oh, yes. I forgot about the existence of that model.

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

Sorry for the late update, I just wanted to say thanks for all the help you guys have given so far.
A lot of your suggestions have big a huge help in what is a relatively new modding experience for me.
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Check out my imgur documenting my workflow up to this post.

http://imgur.com/a/MYrsG


http://i.imgur.com/cA08DNN.jpg

^^ And here we finally are, the skinning process of Max. (Thanks for the script link, by the way, worked like a charm.)

I must confess, I'm totally clueless here. I was looking into voxel skinning. But if someone has some insight into how this whole skinning process works, I'm interested to learn.
I do see that the bodies do contain some bones. Would I just skin to these bones? Or is it as it looks and you somehow skin by voxel? We're finally here ladies and gentlemen.

I'm excited to see this finally game ready soon.

[DarthParametric 3,790]

But if someone has some insight into how this whole skinning process works, I'm interested to learn.

Ho boy. I assumed you were familiar with skinning. This will be a modding baptism of fire. Start here I guess - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=3ds+max+character+skinning+tutorial

[Alan The Magic Goose 14]

I am familiar with skinning, mainly through Maya. I've done numerous rigs including IK, HK, Blendshapes, Control Groups, etc.
I was just confused if the game reads skinning through the volumes (as some have indicated) or through the bones that I'm seeing in the mesh? I do appreciate the link still, as I am pretty unknowledgeable, admittedly, in Max.
So I'll check that out tonight and keep working on the skinning.

Additionally, I have some VFX textures available on Nexus if anyone's interested: 

http://www.nexusmods.com/kotor2/mods/960/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fkotor2%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D960&pUp=1

Also, does this site only support Jpeg as images that can be embedded? Or does PNG work as well? I'm kind of confused. I spent about 20 minutes on my last post only to have to end up editing it to what you see because it doesn't allow one or the other. Haha.
 

[DarthParametric 3,790]

Ah, well that's good then. I've never used Maya, so I don't know how similar or different they are. For Max, you apply a skin modifier, then in the modifier select the bones that will affect the mesh, then apply/paint your weights. The important limitation I mentioned earlier is that KOTOR can only accept a maximum of 4 weights per vertex. You can limit this in the Skin modifier in the Advanced Parameters section, setting the Bone Affect Limit value to 4.

 

Embedding should work with any valid browser-renderable image format, via the IMG tag. Imgur should offer you embedding links via the Get Share Links option (in the mouseover menu).