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TSLRP: Not Quite A Post-Mortem


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#41 Domino5555

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 11:04 AM

The original m4 came out first. Tslrcm came about because I was waiting on my lead writer for m4ep and was needing something to do while I waited.

So that's why this entire mod exists. It was because you didn't want to have too much time on your hands.



#42 Stoney

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 01:27 PM

Can only speak for myself but yes basically I started restoring tsl due to boredom.😝

#43 Mandalore

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:52 PM

Can only speak for myself but yes basically I started restoring tsl due to boredom.

I'm reminded of Ghent in the Thrawn books - "oh yeah, that massive security leak you've been struggling with for ages, I hacked that a few days ago 'cause I was bored."


I have work to do. I should be doing it.

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#44 DarthRevan101

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:31 PM

 

 

Lies and propaganda. Nothing more. This so-called "mod" does not exist. It is nothing more than lies and propaganda created by the Liberal-controlled media. I cite the COMPLETE LACK OF EVIDENCE for its existence as proof. There is no mod. Only the empty talk of people who have promised more than they can deliver.

 

Page 2 of that 77 page thread and it's already wild.

 

I've heard bits and pieces of what happened with TSLRP and it's nice to finally get the whole story.

 


#45 Tyvokka

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 01:15 AM

Hah I remember so much of that as well, never got on the inside track of TSLRP but that 05/06 time period was an interesting time for the KotOR community at LF and then at the TSLRP forums. I did help Pikmin with a few hosting things at one point. He was quite the tool :P



#46 N-DReW25

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 01:26 AM

Page 2 of that 77 page thread and it's already wild.

It gets worse
 

There is no restoration project. It is a front for a secret black project that they've been diverting money and manpower into. If you view their site without wearing your regulation tin foil hat, they will corrupt your mind using secret subliminal messages and transmit mind waves that will brainwash you into thinking there really is a mod. Rise up against these foul conspiritors. Our brother Norfleet has opened our eyes to the lies and manipulation. Rise up and cut the strings controlled by these puppet masters. We will no longer mindlessly take part in their twisted Grand Guignol. The revolution begins here. Give no quarter.

 
But not all of it is crazy talk, I found something that makes a lot of sense on there

What I am most interested about is the Battle of Khoonda. Most if not ALL of that scripting was already done. We had to cut it and turn it into movies because the framerate on the original xbox was just too low during that fight.

This makes a lot of sense, this means even if Kotor 2 was finished on time we'd still lose the battle of Khoonda.

#47 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 12:24 PM

I use the UberArmband extensively for M4-78EP and TSLRCM's fixes (swapping it around with Whereami if I need co-ordinates).
So, thanks for that. And if I knew you were looking for it, I got it right here 0_o

#48 InSidious

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 06:59 AM

Thanks everyone. Glad you enjoyed it.

 

I finally have a small amount of free time, so I'm going to be responding to a few of the points raised in this thread in sequence.

 

 

Well we did get DeNCS out of it, so it wasn't all bad.

Having been involved in an ill-fated large modding project myself (BG2R), I have some sympathy for TSLRP. I know well the pain of lots of people clamouring for a release, but nobody willing to actually help do the work. Having observed the TSLRP drama unfold fairly passively from the outside, I think their main mistake was not making public releases from an early stage. Closed beta testing is fine and a necessity, but don't go making a big song and dance publicly about something until you are willing to release it. Doing so would have done two things. It would have dampened some of the noise from the peanut gallery, and it likely would have encouraged more people to volunteer to help.

 

True, although as  I recall DeNCS requires a specific and long-out-of-date version of Java to run. I think JdNoa made a few other bits and pieces for TSLRP which got released separately, like DeNCS and AniCam.

 

Yeah, it's far from the only project to go south in this kind of way. One of the most frustrating parts of the whole saga is that there were was a small but steady stream of people over the years offering to help implement the mod, and they were all refused. Whether they actually would have stuck around, and if the project would ever have been finished that way, is probably moot, I'd guess.

 

 


I recall this epic shout out to Dashus - screen-capped from the Team Gizka forums days . . .

GcDXFTA.png
 

 

Pavlos' post-mortem on Team Bantha was practically read out verbatim near the end of one of the videos Xuul and I did.  There's a lot of good information in that post-mortem.

 


I am so looking forward for the Pikmin/Balor stuff to come out in a future chapter of the M4-78 Documentary.  That guy was a tool.  The website for K2RP still exists!  (Apparently, he never got around to removing me from the staff list after I denounced him.)

 

QGG's call-out stirs a distant memory. I think it's what actually provoked Dashus into telling everyone he hadn't done any modding for two months because of all that totally real sexy sex he was sexing.

 

Pav's post-mortem is full of good advice for people working on big projects in general, IMO.

 

And yeah, the Pikmin/Balor stuff will be well worth waiting for. :D

 

 

 


 

A few questions regarding the GenoHaradan:

What was the excuse for the Exile to go to Nar Shadda? Was he/she captured by the GenoHaradan before he could go to Telos and was taken to their base or does he/she just say "Let's go to Nar Shadda to defeat the GenoHaradan at their base we don't know where to find"?

 

How did they tackle Batu Rem? Since I've been working on Rem for some time now I know from experience that Batu only has two voiced lines about the GenoHaradan which on its own isn't enough and three more with no VO and two Atton line with no VO. Did they splice or did they redo his lines with a new actor? (Or did they use the two lines?)

 

How did they tackle Luxa's bounty hunters? Because the only evidence of their GenoHaradan involvement is the DLG they have for when you contact them on the terminal in that hospital is called "geno.dlg" I have no other evidence besides that to support the theory of them being GenoHaradan.

Where there any rewards for killing Desicuss the GenoHaradan leader? If not then I can happily announce there will at least 3 or maybe 4 amazing rewards for defeating Dessicus in my mod.

 

I apologize for hounding you with questions you probably won't remember but unless I can get my hands on the TSLRP leak to observe what they have your the closest thing I have to information regarding how they wanted to pull it off.

 

It's been the better part of nine years, but...

 

In TSLRP, the Exile received a summons like the summons to return to Onderon in the vanilla game. It came late in the game, and really screwed up the pacing.

 

I think they just added back in the cut lines for Atton and Batu Rem, I think after "no mere assassin...". Are you sure the VO for Atton isn't hidden somewhere odd? I'm sure the lines were voiced in the RP, but they may have grabbed those lines from the Xbox version or something.

 

I don't really remember Luxa's bounty hunters. Sorry. I'm not sure if they added a reference in there or not. I think possibly they added a reference to the alien VO for the two, and then altered one of the player responses in the dialogue with Luxa. But I can't really remember.

 

As I recall, the reward for beating Dessicus was decidedly underwhelming.

 

Hope that was helpful, but as I say, it's been a long time.

 

 

Was hoping for more behind-the-scenes forum drama, but it seems you never knew much more than regular forum users. Interesting read, thanks for sharing!

 

 


Hahaha I remember this, you were probably our biggest opponent back in the beginning. Good times :D

 

 


Quick clarification here, Goto was never intended to be on M4-78. I heard people mention this quite a few times, and I think the misconception comes from the fact that M4-78 and Goto's Yacht have the same puzzles, but that's not because they're connected.

 

The real story behind it is, Goto's Yacht was supposed to be cut out as well, until Kevin Saunders said he can design the whole area in a week. He did so by moving content he'd designed for M4-78 - which was already cut by that point - to Goto's Yacht.

 

No idea how Goto would fit into the GenoHaradan plot line, though.

 

 

 

 

I actually remember that, since it was so hilariously out of place. On your way to Malachor, T3 would approach you and tell you that the GenoHaradan would blow up Nar Shaddaa or something if you didn't go there and fight them.
I never really played the leak, but I know someone who probably finished it more times than any of the real beta testers :P

 

Yeah. What little we thought we knew was also possibly a lie. As an exercise in project management, it was a disaster.
 

I remember Lord of Hunger was worried I'd block the mod being uploaded to KotORFiles.

 

(I also wrote a horrible review of the very first version of M478, giving it a 5/10. :P ) That led to working on the various plot revisions with Sharen Thrawn before they disappeared off the map.

 

Re: Goto: Interesting,  thanks. I've no idea how Goto and the Genoharadan fit together either. There is a line for one of his opening scenes that goes something like: "The GenoHaradan are no concern of yours". So presumably they were meant to be part of the plot at the same time.

 

 

Thanks for the shout-out Insidious, but I don't think I was involved in any of the testing process for TSLRP

 

Hmm. In that case, I think it must have been Miltiades who was working out the Droid Factory stuff. Maybe I confused you with him because you worked on the RCM droid factory. Apologies.

 

 

Damn, this is a long topic already... well, time to read (yes, nothing done yet). Skimmed a few posts.
Aside from hating us, I also recall you weren't fond of my about my bug reports I made for TSLRP during it's leaked beta (only about 400 entries or so). Should have had saved that list, would have saved me a lot of time on TSLRCM. Might even still be issues in I listed there but then completely forgotten about afterwards.

 

Really? I've completely forgotten that. Then again, my memories of the TG forum is mainly of flame wars, and "I think this thread should be locked now" copypasted everywhere.
 

 

Anyway, a few keyparts you forgot to mention.

* You mention Dashus didn't mind the leak. This however was NOT my experience, as shortly after doing so he uploaded an "update" for the game that basically broke it down entirely. Had to re-install the entire game and TSLRP due to it (thanks Dashus). Which doesn't sound like something someone who "doesn't care" would do. Actual testers got affected too since those gamebreakers started popping up in the official Bug Tracker.

 

I'd forgotten that. He didn't seem particularly ruffled in the limited communication I had with him.

 

 

* You say the blame felt on 90SK, but according to posts by the RPGCodex it was all due to Darth Windu (who stayed on the team), who exchanged his TSLRP code in promise of getting laid. Of course the validity of this claim got never proven, but if it was a hoax they did type up a pretty giant detailed chatlog. One Windu claimed was partially true, but faked out in the end. Anyway, that was the drama seen on the outside.

 

Never knew this. Windu seemed to keep that pretty quiet in the tester's forum at the time, if my memory is right. I do remember him wanting the beta team to release the mod on the grounds that we were the last people around with a connection to the original team.

 

 

* Crap hit the fan WAY before Dashus' "screw you guys, I'm getting laid" when a new trailer was released for TSLRP. Why would a trailer cause commotion? Because it was the "release trailer" and in the end it had a release date 1 year EARLIER than the video was released at. This... fell really REALLY bad with everyone, especially after outcries of "what the hell is this?" got completely ignored or sarcastically dismissed (don't recall specifically). That was really the point where the TSLRP "team" shown the world that this was leading nowhere, Dashus "but I failed everything I ever did, I will succeed at something for once!" was just the final nail in the coffin. That it was a thinly veiled "I'm getting laid, you probably not, SUCKAHS" after withholding TSLRP, refusing to release it even when giving up and all that BS definitely made us all remember him as a giant douchebag. Thanks for DeNCS, but really... that's the legacy left behind, that's what people will remember.

 

Again, I'd completely forgotten this.

 

But yeah, the legacy of Team Gizka, apart from its indirect influence on TSLRCM, wasn't great. I think the guy who made the Atton leaning animation for TSLRP pass it on to TSLRCM, or is my memory playing tricks?

 

 

It was rumored the 90SK bragged about leaking it on another forum. It was brought to my attention then, I looked it up, and the accusation seemed legit.

I do not know the answer.

 

I knew I'd seen something about it. Never thought it was all that likely, myself, but it's all long past now.


You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims? Don't be melodramatic. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare? Free of income tax, old man. Free of income tax - the only way you can save money nowadays.

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#49 Sith Holocron

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 08:34 AM

But yeah, the legacy of Team Gizka, apart from its indirect influence on TSLRCM, wasn't great. I think the guy who made the Atton leaning animation for TSLRP pass it on to TSLRCM, or is my memory playing tricks?


IIRC, Stoney was the one that convinced Savvy to give it to TSLRCM and I was the one that suggested poaching TSLRP's talent as that project started to crumble. I also recall that Savvy was female but I may have been remembering incorrectly.
Not a finstler. (I think.)

#50 Stoney

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 02:47 PM

Yes savvy was a female and she actually came to me asking if we wanted the animation. Of course I said yes.πŸ˜€

#51 l2daorch

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 06:28 PM

Thanks for the write up. Even though I was only lurking (checking team gizka website every other month over years to see how far along the mod was), I still remember some of it vividly. From reading all those cut lines of dialogue a few weeks after I finished my first playthrough, to the excitement when TSLRP was announced, to the beta leak (was pretty hype to finally be able to play some restored content) and finally to that trailer which, at least to me, really marked the end of TSLRP. I am still very grateful to all the awesome folks (you really should have used some sick team name :P) who made TSLRCM happen (or the unrestored content mod as I remember first seeing it). Would have been a real shame if that leaked beta would have ended up being the closest thing to a proper k2 we ever got. The TSLRP beta was pretty sick at the time, but compared to TSLRCM it's pretty bad, especially with M4-78.

With the Genoharadan being in the works once again, it really does seem like Bao-Dur and the rest of the ending are all that's left. Someone should definitely write a book about the history of kotor 2, such a sick story and even after 13 years it's not over.



#52 90SK

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:48 AM

@Qui-Gon Glenn 

That's fascinating, I have no idea. That way many years ago.

I certainly didn't stop them from finishing their work. 



#53 Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 05:57 PM

@Qui-Gon Glenn
That's fascinating, I have no idea. That way many years ago.
I certainly didn't stop them from finishing their work.

I agree that you didn't stop them from doing their work in any way. However, I also find it interesting that you deny nothing.

Curious.

#54 90SK

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 01:52 AM

I agree that you didn't stop them from doing their work in any way. However, I also find it interesting that you deny nothing.

Curious.

 

Yes, I literally know nothing of my dealings then, seems sketchy but I was much younger and since I don't really remember just sticking with that. They didn't contact me or successfully get in touch with me about that as far as I know. 



#55 HK-47

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 06:41 AM

I had always wondered what happened with those teams. I was just getting into using mods and eagerly awaited TSLRP, despite the fact I knew the project was dead. I am so glad I found TSLRCM. The crew here has been awesome.

 

Somehow, I could tell that some of the folks working on TSLRP were jerks. Or at least not personable.

 

@90SK Personally, I don't care what did or didn't happen involving you. Your mod work is very good stuff.

 

@Stoney I recall watching the Nihilus vs Sion video that was posted on YouTube many years ago. I think it's your channel. That was an awesome thing to see at the time (it still is). I don't know if you recall this, but I also accidentally spammed a comment on that video (user: rebuiltHK47) because I didn't know that channel owners could set comments for their videos to be reviewed by the channel owner. I thought my internet, which was really really crappy at the time, was acting up and not sending it. You responded frustrated by it, and I attempted to be HK about it, and was working to apologize for it, and then the last response I got didn't make sense to me so I never said anything back. I'm glad you didn't give up on TSL, even if it was due to boredom.

 

I'm glad restoring TSL did not die with... them. And I'm glad M4-78 was improved on. When the final version of that was released, the one before RCM and EP, I always went there. It was... interesting. I could always see where things were supposed to be. I never got rid of it. It was fun going from that to the EP version. For me it was like going from Alpha to Finished game (whether some of it was made up or not).


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#56 PorygonZRocks

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:24 AM

Sometime around the end of 2007 – beginning of 2008, a small group of regulars at the TSLRP/Team Gizka forums were asked by Dashus if we would join the final beta of the mod before release. Our job was to find bugs, report them, and post updates to the forum about our playthroughs. I forget who the original list consisted of, though most of the names would mean very little to people now. I do remember VarsityPuppet of this parish was one of us, alongside Qui-Gon Glenn, 90SK, Darth Windu, Miltiades, and… other people. They presumably had usernames and identities.

I was browsing through the forum pages on the web archive, and found the tester list here.
Archive.org actually has a bunch of threads saved (not a ton of stuff, but maybe someone might be interested) here.

#57 Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 11:13 PM

That list represents the second wave of testers (including me, Windu, Darathy, Skye and Miltiades) and some others that were added as a third wave.

The original testers had long bailed before our wave, and mostly Tupac Amaru was the only modder that was still actively working on the mod towards the end. I worked closely with him on a couple game breakers, and that was satisfying.

The TSLRP IRC was pretty cool, until Dashus went MIA. I remember the last communication I had with Dashus before I slammed him in my Farewell post. In the IRC were Dash, me and Darathy, and we were talking about Easter eggs. The conversation went nowhere, he wanted to do some Grim Fandango sh!t IIRC, and I had never played it and couldn't see any relevance. Insidious was patient - he could have helped the project a great deal if they had just let him. Le sigh.

Oh well, TSLRCM is real and it is now better, so no real loss in the end, but I spent a lot of time working on the TSLRP and was definitely bitter for a while.

I was also initially certain that zybl2 was another Darth Balor alt and that TSLRCM was doomed when he joined. Happily, that wasn't the case as far as I know, and and if he was and is the same guy it is a testament to genius :D






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