Follow the alignment of characters

[ttlan 18]

Hi all,

 

J'ai d?j? ?voqu? ce probl?me qui existe avant et apr?s TSLRCM (valilla bug) mais qui semble avoir empir? depuis TSLRCM.

I already mentioned this problem that exists before and after TSLRCM (vanilla bug) but seems to have worsened since TSLRCM.

 

Ce probl?me se produit ? travers tout le jeu.

This problem occurs through the whole game.

 

Voici un exemple.

Here is an example.

 

Base souterraine de la Czerka

Underground base of Czerka

 

Sauver le dernier membre de l'?quipe de sauvetage de la Czerka

Save the last member of the Czerka Salvage Crew

 

Suivi de l'alignement de*Bao-Dur avec*KSE

Tracking Bao-Dur alignment using KSE

 

Exil?(e) : Level 14

Str : 12

Dex : 10

Con : 17

Int : 14

Wis : 14

Cha : 14

GoodEvil : 89

 

Bao-Dur : Level 6

Str : 14

Dex : 10

Con : 14

Int : 15

Wis : 14

Cha : 10

GoodEvil : 60

 

On contr?le l'Exil?(e) (We control the Exile)

 

Sauvegarde avant d'entrer dans la base souterraine de la*Czerka (Save before entering the underground base of Czerka) : 60

 

Sauvegarde juste apr?s ?tre entr? (Save just after entering) : 60

 

Conversation avec*Bao-Dur et sauvegarde (Conversation with Bao-Dur and save) : 60

 

Ouverture du premier champs de force et sauvegarde (Opening the first force fields and save) : 60

 

Destruction des 3 premiers dro?des et sauvegarde (Destroying first 3 droids and save) : 60

 

Sauvegarde apr?s d?couverte de la navette (Save after discovery of the shuttle) : 60

 

Sauvegarde ? la d?couverte du gugusse, avant de lui parler (Save when discovering the Czerka Salvage Crew, before talking to him) : 60

 

Sauvegarde apr?s lui avoir dit "Suivez-moi..." (Save after saying "Follow me ...") : 60

 

Sauvegarde juste avant la pi?ce vers la sortie de la base (Save just before the room to the exit of the base) : 60

 

Sauvegarde apr?s avoir gagn? deux points du c?t? lumineux (Save after two Light Side Points Gained) : Exile : 91; Bao-Dur : 92 !!!

 

Sortie vers la zone de restauration car certaines valeurs semblent ?tre recalcul?es au changement de carte et non pas en temps r?el.

Exit to restauration zone because some values seem to be recalculated on map change, not in real time

Exile : 91; Bao-Dur : 60 !!!

 

Retour dans la base souterraine (Return to Underground Base) : Exile : 91; Bao-Dur : 60 !!!

 

Quelque chose ne va pas (Something is going wrong).

 

Bao-Dur devrait terminer ? 61 ou 62

Bao-Dur should finish at 61 or 62

 

Il est entr? dans le jeu ? 50 et a bondi ? 60 imm?diatement, sans que l'Exil? n'ai eu une action particuli?re donc il ne s'agit pas d'une question d'influence.

He entered the game at 50 and jumped immediately to 60, before the Exile have had a particular action so it is not an influence question.

 

TTLan

 

Guide complet de lecture et d'interpr?tation de Kotor 2 dans l'Univers Etendu.

Complete Guide to reading and interpretation of Kotor 2 in the Expanded Universe.

Je n'ai rien compris ? Kotor 2 - I did not understand anything in Kotor 2

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Don't cheat?

[Guest staticjoe66]

To quote the late great Eddie Guerrero, cheat to win--if you're not cheating, you're not trying

 

 

 

Don't cheat?

[Markus Ramikin 107]

You're not as funny as you think, Vogga.

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Where's your report damnit?

 

OT: Yeah, that happens when you put your stats really high. If you got it without that though, then that would be new...

[ttlan 18]

Hi Hassat

 

Don't cheat?

 

Why do you ask that? What are you thinking about? Is there a known problem?

 

No, I do not cheat at all, especially because I use this walkthrough for a deep testing of K2 and TSLRCM. It is probably the 250th and last test I do for a canonical walkthrough on a pure K2 + TSLRCM.

 

As each action is repeated 20-50 times for each test (multiply by 250 tests), the only thing I allow myself to do is to have ugraded Sith tremor sword from the beginning and super lightsaber later (made by myself at the workbench - without any mod).

 

This problem on the characters alignment has always existed but seem to be different with TSLRCM.

 

The 164 saves of the 164 steps will be uploaded and will match exactly the sample solution that I propose so they are clean.

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

No cheats? Okay, what did your stats (STR, DEX, CON, but especially CHA) become in the game? Also, are you the Prestige class of the Consular. They get a feat that influences the alignment of party members stronger than regular other Force users, but it's kind of wonky too.

Is there a known problem?

OT: Yeah, that happens when you put your stats really high. If you got it without that though, then that would be new...

[ttlan 18]

Well, I repeat :

 

No cheat at all.

 

Canonical LS walkthrough.

 

Influence gained absolutely naturaly (as my inventory of the influence points told) :

Star Wars - Kotor 2 - Points d'influence

 

LS points of the Exile gained absolutely naturaly. See the 50 first LS (One additional challenge is to always achieve the Echani fight courses as a master)

Star Wars - Kotor 2 - Liste des PCL

 

At the moment we are talking about :

 

1/ Before saving the last member of the Czerka Salvage Crew

 

Exile : Jedi Sentinel, Level 14

 

Atton : 1 point (58) - Level 3

Bao-Dur : 0 point (50) - GoodEvil : 60 - Level 6

Kreia : 3 points (74) - Level 12

T3-M4 : 2 points (66) - Level 10

 

What did your stats (STR, DEX, CON, but especially CHA) ?

Already listed - see first post in this thread.

 

2/ After saving him :

 

Exile : Jedi Sentinel, Level 14

Str : 12

Dex : 10

Con : 17

Int : 14

Wis : 14

Cha : 14

GoodEvil : 91

 

Bao-Dur

GoodEvil : 63 - Why did I wrote 92? Because it comes after 91?

Influence : 50

 

3/ After changing map

Bao-Dur

GoodEvil : 60

Influence : 50

 

4/ Workaround the bug - Put Bao-Dur out of the active group

 

As I pointed out for years, there is a workaround (not always) to this bug. But it is tedious and it is not a solution but just a hack:

 

Put your companions out of the activ group before moving to another map. So, in this case, put Bao-Dur out of the active group while he is at 63 (use KSE to remove him).

 

Now change map.

 

Save

 

Look at the alignment of Bao-Dur: He remained at 63.

 

5/ And last but not least

 

After point 4, recall now Bao-Dur in your active group (here, use KSE for this). Load. Do not do anything else. Save. Watch the alignment of Bao-Dur.

 

It fell back to 60!!!

 

This damn bug pursue all the companions, more or less randomly, from the beginning to the end of the game, for years!

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Well, it's much easier to read without the French.

 

When loading a new map, it does some calculations. Included would be the alignment of your team depending on your alignment and influence. If it is deemed incorrect then yes, it would be reset like you stated. That's not the issue, the 60 would be the correct value. It's the 63 that would be the bug. Might it be the convo got innitiated with Bao-Dur, thus he getting the +LS instead of the exile?

 

Something similar happens with the XP of teammembers, which is the cause of the annoying bug that if you sell T3 on Nar Shaddaa when he enters the warehouse he will be about 2-5 levels under everyone else (depending on when you sold him) cause there is no synching with the Exile. Then if you take him aboard Goto's Yacht and find the Exile, he will raise 5 levels (just like pretty much each teammember levels up one or 2 levels upon finding the Exile).

 

Both are pretty much unfixable for a modteam.

 

EDIT:

You may note that ANY XP or LS/DS gained by teammembers is WASTED. So for maximum benefits ignore all enemies during events like being T3 on Peragus, or the run from Flophouse to Tienn, and let the Exile handle it. Docks-Flophouse, Dxun Freedon Nadd Tomb or the entire HK-Factory cannot be done by the exile, so feel free to do whatever you like there. I usually allow my teammembers to get the DS powers of the DS pools in the tomb because, as stated, any DS or LS gained is nullified anyways.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Hassat Hunter

[ttlan 18]

Well, Ok. Thanks.

 

As I mention before, I notice the calculations at the map change but I do not know on what they apply.

 

An additional challenge

My job on LS points is to help, in my walkthrough, XBox players for an additional challenge that can't be done on PC : all the characters become Light Side Masters.

 

And my question about the PC version of K2 :

Why this challenge can't be win in that version ? Why all the characters, except the Exile, are limited at an aligment from 1 to 99 instead of 0 to 100 ? Does the bug is on the XBox version or on the PC version ?

 

I think that that game is too easy and that additionnal challenges are necesary (I explain many of them in my walkthrough).

 

I think also that, after K2, they will reconstruct the new Jedi order (and, in that way, they can all reach the Master grade), a unique order with a unified knowledge (this is in that way that Arren Kae, aka Darth Traya, aka Kreia, is one of the greatest Lord in the Extended Universe (she completely destroy, alone, the two previous orders !) and that K2 would be see as one of the most important event, as important as ANH. But K2 has been bad released for the reasons we are working on, due to the hurry of LucasArts.

 

And now my question about Kreia :

She remains neutral on the PC version of K2. Her aligment change in the XBox version. I think that the PC version is right and that the bug is on the XBox version (Kreia profess a unified teaching. She can not take side for one side rather than another). What do you think of this ?

 

TTLan

Edited August 26, 2010 by ttlan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Why all the characters, except the Exile, are limited at an aligment from 1 to 99 instead of 0 to 100 ? Does the bug is on the XBox version or on the PC version ?

Well, I got them to Mastery (PC). I heard that the bonusses while shown on the stats screen are not applied for them though, but I don't know wheter that's true...

She remains neutral on the PC version of K2. Her aligment change in the XBox version. I think that the PC version is right and that the bug is on the XBox version (Kreia profess a unified teaching. She can not take side for one side rather than another). What do you think of this?

There is a way to turn her LS in vanilla, by healing the soldiers in Dantooine just before the battle.

Don't know wheter we got that fixed (think we did)... but aside from that, yup, true neutral. Does she change on the X-box even without the use of said glitch?

[ttlan 18]

Hmm ...

 

On PC, I'll try once again to lead them to mastery, but I think it will not work, even using tricks of unlimited LSP (and tricks start to sorely miss with TSLRCM which set back the fun to play - it's not at all funny).

 

About Kreia on XBox, as far as I can remember, her alignment moves from the start. i'll look at that later (in many weeks).

 

On a PC, if you think at the heal of the four soldiers in the infirmary of Khoonda, it is neither hot or cold to Kreia. I made lots of tests, controlling the Exile or Kreia, with normal charisma or very high charisma pushed with KSE: Kreia is and stay neutral!

 

And the trick with the medical dro?d has gone!

 

Does the one with the protocol droid of Khoonda, which runs on Xbox, will be restored on PC?

 

Why push the players to cheat with the console or KSE instead of letting them play with the tricks? Especially the tricks desired and installed by Obsidian.

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

On a PC, if you think at the heal of the four soldiers in the infirmary of Khoonda, it is neither hot or cold to Kreia. I made lots of tests, controlling the Exile or Kreia, with normal charisma or very high charisma pushed with KSE: Kreia is and stay neutral!

Did you let Kreia do the healing/fixing of the droid?

Does the one with the protocol droid of Khoonda, which runs on Xbox, will be restored on PC?

Don't know exactly what exploit you talk about, but no, we WON'T "restore" exploits that got fixed.

Why push the players to cheat with the console or KSE instead of letting them play with the tricks? Especially the tricks desired and installed by Obsidian.

There are no "tricks desired and installed". They are the result of rushing and lack of de-bugging by the OE crew. If they have had a decent timeframe to release, you can be assured they wouldn't be present. Exploits are bugs too, a worser kind even, and thus will be fixed when we find them...

[Guest Senka]

On a PC, if you think at the heal of the four soldiers in the infirmary of Khoonda, it is neither hot or cold to Kreia. I made lots of tests, controlling the Exile or Kreia, with normal charisma or very high charisma pushed with KSE: Kreia is and stay neutral!

The same...

[ttlan 18]

Hi Hassat,

 

This has never been completely discovered and described on the Net (in French anyway), but the trick with the medical droid of Khoonda is clearly something written voluntarily. It's not at all what is written everywhere : click click click click and, from time to time, a LS point is win. And it is not a limited trick, as written everywhere but it is unlimited!

 

I think the following screenshots are sufficient to understand than that writing proceed from a previous reflexion and is voluntary and not a bug. An animation has been written for that trick.

 

Star Wars - Kotor 2 - TSL - Astuce : PCL illimit?s avec le dro?de m?dical dans l'infirmerie de Khoonda

 

For the beginners, tricks remain unknown.

 

For advanced users, there is a joy to discover them and more to use them. They bring pleasure to use and extend the life of the game

 

And because it is impossible to use console or others KSE's like on Xbox, the developers introduce tricks in games to compensate for this lack of mobility that we have on PC's versions.

 

And when you can use a trick instead of stupidly falling in the use of a cheat console, there is no doubt about the choice! The trick is much more fun and represents a phase of the game - the console does not bring you anything except the feeling of having cheated!

 

Removing the tricks is impoverishing the game.

 

And when a canteen requires a level 53 to be opened, it is a very difficult and exciting challenge that requires thinking and I always succeeded. I do not think that taking the players for fools enhance the game. Get off this level to 35 by believing that it was a typo makes this phase of the game tasteless. Don't think! We feel for you!

 

Same thing with the administrative card of the underground base of Czerka. This should be used in an enigma to deactivate the turrets of the base. But no ... The alternate requirement to disable the turrets was lowered to a computer skill greater than 8, in other words, anyone can do it without resorting to this enigma that has disappeared! Who ever heard of this enigma?

 

Look at 232TEL_dlg.erfsectrma.dlg

This script should be completely rewrite.

 

Fear ... is what governs the development of this game! The fear that it is too difficult to understand in terms of scenario because all of this requires thinking. So, for fear that the enigmas be also too difficult, we gave the game to players. It has become so stupid in terms of enigmas and difficulties that we see beginners boast of having come through this adventure, for their first time playing at K2, in less than 20 hours!

 

Stop cretinization of Kotor 2.

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

but the trick with the medical droid of Khoonda is clearly something written voluntarily.

No, it isn't. Honestly. Developers never EVER put exploits in their games on purpose. *NEVER*

An animation has been written for that trick.

There are no animations in the dialogue. I suppose there could be in the script, but I am not going to check now. Also, even if there was an animation specifically made for this scene (unlikely) it's not made to be infinite.

the developers introduce tricks in games to compensate for this lack of mobility that we have on PC's versions.

No, they introduce "tricks" because they cut on QA. Or in OE's case they didn't really get much time to do so because LA rushed KOTOR2 out the door...

the console does not bring you anything except the feeling of having cheated!

Exploits are cheats too.

Removing the tricks is impoverishing the game.

Killing exploits improves the game. You gotta work with the restrictions set to you by the gameworld. If you break Hanharr so much he gets 255 INT, do you really think that's dev's intention, or makes the game better to play?

And when a canteen requires a level 53 to be opened, it is a very difficult and exciting challenge that requires thinking and I always succeeded.

Whut? You can't even get to level 53 since there is a level limit of 50. So I don't know what you're going for here...

I do not think that taking the players for fools enhance the game.

We aren't. KOTOR2 is quite the opposite from "made for fools". Well, if you exclude the combat that is.

Don't think! We feel for you!

{Gets slightly uncomfortable here}Oooooookay.

Same thing with the administrative card of the underground base of Czerka. This should be used in an enigma to deactivate the turrets of the base. But no ... The alternate requirement to disable the turrets was lowered to a computer skill greater than 8, in other words, anyone can do it without resorting to this enigma that has disappeared! Who ever heard of this enigma?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. But if you think we added the COMP check you would be wrong, that's all OE right there. Check back in vanilla if you don't believe me, you can hack the system without ever using the keycard.

There are plenty of skill-checks ALL OVER THE WORLD. Actually, there are far more that fail if you have low skills in TSLRCM than there were in vanilla, since we did fix a lot of them that were broken (most often a case of the check being written in the wrong place; script instead of condition).

Look at 232TEL_dlg.erfsectrma.dlg

This script should be completely rewrite.

Why? Skills are useful in KOTOR2 for a change. Is this a problem for you?

The fear that it is too difficult to understand in terms of scenario because all of this requires thinking.

?. A good place for you would be the HK-Factory. And that wasn't in vanilla.

Stop cretinization of Kotor 2

I had to look up "cretinization". Basically it seems to mean "scrutinise". And yeah, that's kind of the task of people who work on restoration mods. Can't find all the hidden/broken content unless you search around the inner workings of the beast.

It definitely isn't easy with the interconnected workings of most scripts and dialogs and flags...

What was the problem again with us doing this?

[ttlan 18]

Well,

 

First of all, never take what I say or my recriminations against you. We must be rebelling against LucasArts because they are the cause of the bugs encountered and shortcuts that Obsidian had to take.

 

Well ... Maybe I had better to work on my English before you write?

 

About the medical dro?de of Khoonda

You can win a LS point only when the dro?de is in that position and this happen randomly - this is the animation than pilot the win of the LS point, so it cannot be a bug nor an exploit but something done voluntarily.

 

 

 

Exploits are cheats too.

That's what I say except that, with tricks, you have to play at/with the game. The console or KSE are stupid to cheat when you have an other way, much more funny and amazing.

 

I am a little proud of discovering things that nobody has yet discover in K2 but if I speak of that with you and you erase it, K2 return to a game for beginners and I let it down. It become of less interest.

 

I repeat what I have already say on the previous board. We can play at the game but it's much more interresting playing with the game when we have walk through this adventure hundreds of times.

 

Erasing tricks is killing the game for the advanced players, we, those who play at it again and again, five years later, and are active on the boards to help beginners while always finding pleasure and secrets.

 

If all what make us feel that we do not yet have gone all arround the game is destroyed, I do not see the point for the pillars of this game that we are, of continuing playing at it.

 

It became something basic, for beginners, with basic solution.

 

It is still more interesting and fun to discover how to raise to square the number of Handmaiden's Robe and then sell them or break them down instead of calling KSE and, in 2 moves, say 10 million credits and 500,000 components!

 

Oh... and, as far as I know, mulpiply the number of Handmaiden's Robe has been discovered but never how to raise this number to square.

 

About the level 53

I am talking of security skill, I am not talking of jedi level. When you must reach 53 in your security skill, you have to think a lot and try to find, in the objects loots, the ones who can upgrade your skill.

 

About the enigma for the turrets in the underground base on Telos

It is an enigma cut by Obsidian. I am not talking of TSLRCM team. The alternate possibilty to deactivate the turrets is your computer skill and Obsidian has fixed it at > 8. I think, regarding your other post, that this enigma must be restored. It must be difficult and enigmatic to shut down the turrets (notwithstanding the fact that it is better to destroy them for fun and PX). You are in a military base! If anyone can shut down the turrets, at what does they serve?

 

Thanks for all

 

TTLan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

I am a little proud of discovering things that nobody has yet discover in K2 but if I speak of that with you and you erase it, K2 return to a game for beginners and I let it down. It become of less interest.

It's hard to believe someone this days find something yet undiscovered. Although I suppose it could since I have yet to see ANYONE mention the alternative to the +CON and +STR boost from Kreia for breaking Hanharr. And that was possible in vanilla...

Erasing tricks is killing the game for the advanced players, we, those who play at it again and again, five years later, and are active on the boards to help beginners while always finding pleasure and secrets.

Because the game gets better with a 255 INT Hanharr? But well, you still have engine glitches like the infinite mine XP, super saber/saber dupe to exploit because we just can't fix these. And engine issues like Battle Precognition not working with armors that allow shields

If all what make us feel that we do not yet have gone all arround the game is destroyed, I do not see the point for the pillars of this game that we are, of continuing playing at it.

You play this game 100x to exploit it? You should have become professional QA tester...

Sounds a bit like what I find fun, but I delete them instead of spread them .

It is still more interesting and fun to discover how to raise to square the number of Handmaiden's Robe and then sell them or break them down instead of calling KSE and, in 2 moves, say 10 million credits and 500,000 components!

How about neither and finding components and money the hard way. You get way more than you need on a regular play elseway. There are plenty of other ways to stimulate gamers, like maxing XP techniques, getting INF high/low for all, hearing new convo pieces you didn't before (just found out with 20 awareness Zez Kai-Ell says more for example (vanilla), or Vrook can tell you more when you meet Zez (1.7(?) fix) first).

Maybe you could help find us find bugs like these, so not only are they squashed, but they open more content to players of TSLRCM .

It is an enigma cut by Obsidian.

Eh. OE intentionally made skills more useful, since they pretty much where fluff in KOTOR1. Do you blame them?

But anyone can mod the game, so if you want to make a "hardcore" mod that does stuff like this aside enemy tweaks, I am sure you will find a willing crew that wants a challenge...

[ttlan 18]

Hi Hassat,

 

It is an enigma cut by Obsidian.

Eh. OE intentionally made skills more useful, since they pretty much where fluff in KOTOR1. Do you blame them?

But anyone can mod the game, so if you want to make a "hardcore" mod that does stuff like this aside enemy tweaks, I am sure you will find a willing crew that wants a challenge...

 

But... That's what I say. In that present case, the skill is not used and it's a pity.

 

I feel that we do not understand each other. My English is so bad?

 

Result: the administrative card found a little further on a corpse is useless and yet it has been planned for this enigma.

 

Worse, I even think that the potential existence of this enigma, circumvented by Obsidian themselves, for I do not know why, has never been discovered.

 

In the genus "restoring cut content" it is really time to restore something easy to do and of an implacable logic.

 

A skill > 8 is equal to not using the skill since a character can not have any skill less than 8 at its creation and that these skills can only grow.

 

It is to honor the Obsidian work than restoring the use of this skill at this point in the underground base of Czerkas and to restore an enigma.

 

At that time of the game, the computer skill is arround 10 / 14 and many items upgrading this skill have been found so I think that a computer skill > 18, perhaps > 20, is reasonable to be able to deactivate the turrets. It must be something difficult, pushing the user to find an other way, the administrative card. The use of intrusions programs appear not to have been scheduled but could be.

 

TTLan

Edited August 28, 2010 by ttlan

[Hassat Hunter 571]

Eh, not everyone is a Sentinel you know. Consulars and Guardians got a lot less skill points to use. It's a perk of being Sentinel (yeah, they are a little too powerful, but that's more because the compensation (lack of HP/FP) doesn't matter much).

 

Or are you saying the keycard should be gone, since you think it's a "cop out"?