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Hmm, I can't get it to work with the Quarren for TSL.

Tried using a normal map filter -- not NVIDIA's, should make no difference as far as my knowledge of normal map filters go -- too before converting it to grayscale and it still would not work for me. Either it appears to have no effect or a prompt appears stating the bump map is invalid. Tried a bunch of TXI variants as well.

Have you guys mostly been testing with K1 or have you actually done this in TSL as well?

I ask in that the engine's aren't exactly the same in that one is OpenGL and the other is DirectX/OpenGL.

EDIT: oh, and not sure my previous statement about there being bump maps in the game files of either game that are simply greyscale images of the color diffuse maps; I recall coming across the odd one, perhaps in K1, but I can't find them so perhaps I am mistaken :/

Funny, I've been learning to 3D model and how to create materials and the textures they require, and a while back, I finally realised the difference between (proper) bump maps and normal maps -- didn't realise that the pink normal maps were just interim ones though. Was going to test out a simple greyscale map to test it out in TSL but never quite did to due to work.

I think you will find that there is no need to run any kind of normal map filter first on the diffuse (color) map before changing it to greyscale -- of the few bumpmap greyscale textures in the game files, you will see that they are for the most part greyscale version of their diffuse counterparts. The game should generate a normal map from the diffuse. It's a similar thing with some 3D modelling applications and game engines like Unreal Engine 4. You can set it up so that a material will take a greyscale version of your diffuse texture, and from that, calculate the normal map from it.

Results aren't perfect, as really, you want to be able to have more power/influence on how the final normal map is generated; but still a lot quicker and easier if you don't have the tools to do so. Also as far as K1/TSL, using a greyscale image that has not been "normalized" prior to being made greyscale, means that you can then tweak other aspects of it like: brightness/contrast, shadows/highlights. These should then affect the end RGB normal map generated -- though, I'm guessing that there are limitations on what you can achieve, especially as it's not an RGBA normal map.

Cool to see the progress made to do with this -- one of the less understood parts of the game engine along with the model format. Interesting to see what else you guys uncover .

Dare I say, is this project dead or on hold?

Well, I started a new job a while back so my time is a bit limited; I also started a short-course in 3D modelling and animation. So, any free time I have usually goes to completing the course.

I guess it is on hold for the immediate future, and whether I have to cut the scope back or just release what I have at the moment. I'll decide when things are a bit clearer on my end .

Here is an Example of what I mean,

 

This is a texture that has been enlarged and than enhanced using just a quick sharpen filter.

 

 

I am not saying it cant be enhanced any better than that using filters, But a polished turd is still a turd as the saying goes.

 

Here is my remade version of that same texture. Its not a direct copy and paste, i actually go to some lengths to make sure it repeats nicely and is symmetrical.. We are talking about an advanced civilization, the least they could do is make some sheet metal that actually lines up with the pieces next to it.

 

 

Yep, you sure don't 

Which would require me learning them, which would slow me down more than I already am between programming, mods, and life.

Whether you do or don't is your business; my comment was aimed at community tool development in general, with an eye for future support for tools -- Perl based tools require people willing to learn Perl; I for one do not as I see no long-term value in doing so, especially when I know other more popular languages. Plus, if you're going to learn programming, I wouldn't start with Perl if you're working with Windows platforms -- you're going to have to move on from it if you want to be a programmer, regardless.

Anyway I'm not trying to pick on you or whatever, just saying that just because existing tools were created with Perl, doesn't mean you have to use Perl for new tool development. Some of those tools were created several years ago when to the developers, Perl, was a good option; now we have far better ones.

Why? It was designed for text- and byte-file manipulation, and Tcl\Tk got a Perl port...

It's a scripting language used for Linux -- it's not really class / object based, why you end up with huge long scripts, and the syntax isn't very "familiar" to anything more common, like say PHP. Though I really shouldn't have to say more, it also isn't all that much used beyond Linux / Unix (or whatever) for admin purposes. And though it has various libraries and such available, it was never meant for anything graphical -- EDIT: when I say graphical, I mean UI elements and things like rendering data as an image like a 3D model.

If you go to a book store, and look in the computer programming section -- if they have one -- you will not find a single book on Perl; though, you will likely still find books on PHP and other "scripting" languages. 

In my eyes, Perl, is junk because it is a bit of a dead end only used within certain niches. Plus, if you're going to code a tool for a windows platform, you have an abundance of other far better options to use -- such as Visual C#.

Oops! I meant to release the source code!

 

I coded it in Perl, using tk102's coding libraries rather than making my own...

Ewww Perl! 

Kinda cool you did it with Perl, can see why you would with the existing code-base of sorts. But I kind of wish people would stop using Perl for tools  . 

What did you code this in?

after one month of trying, I have absolutely no idea how to view modules and scripts. I even tried loading the modules in the Aurora Toolset, but it crashed. any tips?

Well, it would probably help if you used the right tool. I don't know why you are using Aurora's tools when you're trying to do something for TSL. Frankly, you should have researched that aspect a bit on your own and figured out what tools you can use and what they can and can't do. Why you likely have not gotten a reply, as no one likes having to answer such questions.

With the current tools, you will NOT be able to load any modules, at least not so that you can see it in 3D. The best is KOTOR tool, which will give you a 2D overhead view of a map, however, it does not support all the modules in the game. Most people will tell you not to even bother using that aspect of the tools at all, as the module editor is unreliable. You can use the rest of the tool-set to view the game files along with edit things like scripts.

BTW: did you work on Starpoint Gemini 2, or, do you just like the game?

It shows to me a 3-4-framed view, where left is the tree view, second from the left is hex, third from the left is the... um, char data of the hex? and the rightmost view is the translated data. Does it show something different to you? Still, the "translated" data is mostly numbers anyway, and even if you don't know if they are translated correctly or not, you can try to guess what they stand for... not that what I say would do any good anyway. I don't know too much about 3D.

Yep. I'm interested in what MDLops is possibly NOT translating or interpreting. When the program loads a model, it reads in the binary info and builds the data for it via variables it creates and assigns to. That view shows you what is in those variables. If the program is not parsing certain elements into variables, as it is set to ignore it, then you get an unclear picture. Especially if you then create an ASCII output file that then gets read in and edited via another program, and then has to be loaded back into the original program. Data gets lost along the way.

Is it just like a document of binary code that you're needing translated to ASCII or what?

Not quite.

That can be pretty time-taking, yes. Of course, you could open the ascii file into a text editor and the binary model in MDLOps's tree view ("view model data" or whatever the button says, something like that) and compare what's in there... it's quite infromative. Though, of course, I'm not sure if it can give all the information you require.

I'm pretty sure that the "View model data" button is referring to the translated binary, not the raw data -- from what I gather looking at the Perl script. So, it's gonna have areas that are missing. And yeah, I've already done those things .

If I get problems if I do nothing but decompile the model with MDLOps and then compile it again, it's hard to believe it could be anything other than the MDLOps itself. Not the NWMax anyway, as I haven't even touched it. Of course, maybe the problem is only with head models, I don't know. Body models seem to work fine.

 

Anyway, if you're still searching the Replacer, I think I got it there.

From looking at the code, there are various lines that have been commented out to do with nodes and such of the model file format. Why they are commented out, I can't be 100% certain of, however, it is likely that certain model info is just not used by NWmax and even including it, makes it go awry. So there is no point in supporting such functionality.

Anyway, the real issue is the mesh replacer function, as it should be replacing just the selected mesh data, and leave everything else behind. However, that functionality I believe is reliant on the same binary to ascii reader that the export function uses. Basically, the way it works is fundamentally flawed from what I can gather.

To learn anymore, I would have to write a binary to (raw) ascii function -- not what mdlops does, which is more along the lines of interpreting and ignoring what it doesn't need to know. That way I can get a better idea of what mdlops is and isn't exporting. Not that I think that is all that hard to do, but, not sure when I'll get around to doing that .

Removed the broken a1.0 file you could still select (but was 0kb), so it immediately goes for a1.1, and removed the 'broken' tag...

Curious that both the original file and screenshot would become corrupted; doesn't seem like what I suggested would result in that -- I'm sure the site is more resilient than that.

Anyway, thanks.

You should probably refrain from using spaces in your files that you upload. Though it seems to work fine for me ATM.

If you mean why it wouldn't download but redirect to the homepage, my guess is that when I had the mod page open for edit, to at least fix the light grey text on the dark grey background if not update the mod altogether. I believe I ended up having to reboot my system. Not 100% sure how the site really works, but my guess people were being redirected because the site still believed I had the mod page open for editing. It's the only thing that I can account for the download being redirected along with the screenshots for the mod disappearing.

BTW: is it too much to ask that the "file reported broken" message displaying at the top of the mod page be removed, as it is clearly no longer the case..?

I woke up to a message telling me that my mod file was broken, on investigation, I found for some reason that as reported, it did indeed redirect to the Deadly Stream homepage. So, I decided that I would do a small update of the mod incorporating some new material and fixes:

The mod page where you can update the udpate can be found here.

If the WIP Alpha 1-1 is still not available, bug one of the moderators, not me .

I forget the reason for this, someone -- Hunters Run I think -- said it has to do with the walkmesh not being exported out with the model. I know that with an existing model, that if you edit the mesh faces and UVW mapping, all you need to update is the MDX component. If you update both you will get the disappearing door issue, if you just update the MDX, you won't. If you want to update textures, you then hex edit the original MDL file to leave as much of the model file intact as possible.

A custom door with a custom mesh is a bit more difficult, but, as long as the new mesh(es) match those of an existing model file...

Anyway, that's one way of doing it but perhaps there's an easier way if you understand the issue better and now how to export the model correctly.

Hex edit it to change the texture file, then use Taina's Replacer to change UVW? That seems to be my way of working anyway, as MDLOps seems to mess more things than I first thought... and KAurora doesn't even want to run.

 

Anyway, SiC, thanks for mentioning Audacity. I didn't know about it before, and it seems to be just the program I needed.

Yeah, Audacity isn't all that shabby considering what it does and that it's for free.

I don't think it is so much MDLops that is to blame but more the reliance on NWmax to get models in and out of Max. If a model exported out of max is missing elements, then MDLops had no reason to support their functionality when compiling binaries of models. Though, it is a bit perplexing why the update mesh function doesn't work that well, considering it is supposed to just modify an existing binary model, not one that has been decompiled to ASCII text. You'd think it would leave anything it doesn't have to update alone, and make sure to retain as much model info as possible.

Anyway, I might give it another shot with Taina's Replacer myself, just to see what difference if any it makes, and to get a bit familiar with the tool considering it's not that easy to find.

Someone over at LucasForums should update the list of tools to include ALL tools up to their more update version; either that or one of the moderators should do that here at Deadly Stream for when LF goes down and can't be accessed .

IIRC; in todays games, they make highpoly models and from those create all kinds of maps. And then apply those maps to a lower poly version of the same model.

But I guess you're not about to remodel everything from the Kotor games to get normal maps

 

Love the video! Really shows the work you put into this!

Yeah, game devs use their modelling program along with additional tools to generate a normal map from a high-poly model -- along with the low-poly model itself. Most image editing program plugins use the diffuse texture as a guide for creating them instead as hobbyists that modify games in particular, don't have access to the high-poly model to create new normals from.

I guess that would be more ideal, however, in some cases the newer normal maps are better..

I really like what you did with the Restoration Zone! Glad you took all of the "peanut butter" off of the Czerka structures. It looks so much nicer now.

Thanks. The Czerka structures used a Telos Citadel Station texture which meant you couldn't do much to it without affecting Citadel station.

It's nice being able to use textures for purposes other than what they were intended, but at a certain point, it becomes a rather nasty visual limitation; at it's basic everything ends up looking the same, at it's worst it is illogical, like the use of concrete textures for structural supports for Citadel station. You probably could all things considered, use prefab concrete in space construction, but our expectations are that it will be made out of metal or metal-like materials -- like ceramic and other composites. And I really think that even though you can't enter the structures themselves and they're used in only one area, that the base is of such importance that it needs a more distinct memorable appearance.

So basically, you are talking about a plugin for a program that takes a texture and modifies its lightning and makes it easier to work on a batch of texture? That's not exactly my cup of tea, but that's what my ignorant brain can cough up for an explanation lol. That's why I work  on a very small scale and never do amazing skin jobs

The filter plugin takes the diffuse (color) texture and then allows you to select a range of options and output a normal map to be used with the diffuse texture in games. Normal maps are a way of making a low-poly 3D model look like it has more detail by telling the renderer to render the diffuse texture's pixels differently in way of lighting -- as simply as I can put it.

Some references on normal maps:

• Normal Mapping (OpenGL) - has video to watch which might help
• Oblivion Parallax and Normal maps - fairly good info on the mechanics, especially makes clear the respective RGBA channels
• Tangent Space Normal Mapping - I guess you could say this is more technical and "modern" in a way, but also gives additional info

LoLor? What's that rock?

I guess you've never seen a normal map? It's a blend of the before diffuse (color) texture and the normal map derived from it; a plugin I'm working on for the image editing program.

Xuul has done a YouTube video of my original release for this mod:

http://youtu.be/zOi5pPmZfmQ

I think the new scheme is better; with the back texturing, I'd be tempted to change it slightly to something more darker so that the front faceplate really stands out more, maybe the lower back half.

But in the end I think you should do what makes you happy, as I don't have the whole vision of what you intend it to look in the end .

Sorry to hear that but your work is awesome none the less

Thanks, it's nice to hear that people like the work. I know that I gripe a lot about the limitations of how to do things, but that's because I see how things can be and get frustrated when I can't make any progress in making them a reality. Still nice to hear that people like what they see; let's me know I should keep at it .

Is it possible to add more ships besides the Ravager? It'd be nice to also see some Sith and Republic warships. But given the current problems you're facing, I don't know if that would work.

Yes and no, I could hex one of the model rotating cylinders to use another alternative texture, but, I think it is a waste of effort and unnecessary burden to place on the game renderer for very little burdent.

The best option really is to edit the mesh, especially the way the cylinders are UVW mapped to use any texture. The way it's setup I'm sure was a quick way of doing it, however, the end result is very poor. I'm no modelling expert, but, I'm pretty sure they could of had differing parts of the mesh set to use different parts of the texture to better effect, rather than letting it "wrap" the texture around the mesh.

I might give it another shot, as one of the problems is that I don't use these tools on a regular basis. Every time I start up again I have to essentially relearn how to do things -- though this time I'm making notes . It also doesn't help that my model editing folders and files aren't very well organised; this is in part due to how MDLops and NWmax exports files, with all exports using the same .mdl file extension whether they are in binary or ASCII text format. If you neglect to make a change in NWmax as to where it exports files and what it calls them, it's easy to have things overwritten and lost; not to mention it can be initially unclear what file version you're working with -- an NWmax export or MDLops.

Anyway, I'll probably get around to looking at the problem in more depth, and this particular model is a good test case to see whether module environment models can be edited and run in game without any issues; but, currently I have other small projects that I'd like to finish up first before taking on another code-based one.

A bit of an update...

In way of the Ravager and Sith Fighter texture, this is as far as I am going to take it for the time being:

I'll wait and see if Fair Strides has any luck with editing and exporting the model -- unless it is modifying the perl scripts that MDLops uses, I don't see it being a success :/.

EDIT: I take it you guys would like for this texture to be made available ASAP, I might do that once I've heard back from Fair Strides on what happened further with his area model editing efforts.

Have made some more progress with the Telos Restoration textures, need to do one more rock (replacement) texture, the "grass," new shield wall animated texture, and then finally additions to the skybox to tie it altogether. I'll post up a set of screens for that when I'm done.

I've also been doing some placeable object textures, in particular those found within the restoration zone:

For those curious about the meaning of the transparent pink desk in the last post, well, a problem I've had is that modified placeable models seem to pop out of existence when the camera passes over them; I do believe I know have this resolved as the modified mesh for this desk can attest to:

The new(er) approach(es) I was hoping would allow me to modify more complex model files like those with animated elements and lightmaps. It doesn't so that means that module environment models are sill a big issue.

The one thing I think held back the Kotor games in the graphic department was that it had to run on the old Xbox. I think the textures got really down sized hard to make it run on the console and to let it fit on the 'dvd' disc, or whatever it was the xbox used. Not sure if by Hex editing you can track down the meshes that make up the sith fighters in the skybox model. So you can give them a unique texture all of their own.

Yeah, I thought that might be a factor, but really, why not make use of the extra texture space? I think what happened is that they were going to do it differently but then ran out of time either went with what they had or did some quick fix. They may have also gone this way because they couldn't get the sith fighters to look right via the XBOX hardware -- there may have been rendering limitations. So, they opted to go blurry instead and hope that with the action going on that players wouldn't care if they had played through to that point.

But really, there would have been at least one producer who had to sign off on it, and in my opinion, this is just unacceptable quality-wise -- especially as with their tools, it would have been a 15 minute fix:

Hex editing is not going to much help I think; you can edit the meshes to use a different texture, but editing UVW mapping is more difficult. There are discernible numbers that you can make out clearly along with the texture filenames, appears to actually represent a value, however what does what, is harder to discern from the soup of surrounding gibberish.

I'm working on that. Unfortunately, hex-editing it still won't change the UVW...

 

Also, I ran 221telc through MDLOps, imported it into 3DS, changed the texture and UVW on that one piece.

 

Thing is, KAurora will export to binary the original ascii from MDLOps, but not the Ascii from 3DS. I tried it again just importing and not changing anything, and it still won't go...

Yeah, I didn't think you'd have much luck .

I think there is another way to do it that I thought of last night before going to bed that might work with existing tools, better than hex editing...

EDIT: like my new desk? I textured it myself .

Is there some rule written somewhere that you can't have both..?

I personally prefer the red, black and chrome, as the other seemed to bland in a sense -- but that really depends upon context and how you modify that texture further, especially with specular.