The Force Discussion

[Guest hkmandalore47]

For everyone that has played TSL, you know that there were ideological issues with the Jedi Council, the Sith, and the Force itself. From playing this game, it really makes me think about the Jedi, the Force, and all of its issues. This game sort of opens you up to the philosophy of the Force. For starters the idea of the Force, when you think of it, is actually quite annoying, and you will understand why Kreia wants to kill it.

 

The Force brings in some pretty sick powers and abilities and makes a person like a demigod. However I don't really like the way the Force functions. The Force is some all powerful thing that controls every aspect of the galaxy, giving a person absolutely no control over what is going on. The idea that "the Force brought me here" shows that the Force controls where you go and when you go. It's sort of like predestination, which I do not like at all. I don't like the fact that the Force has a will, and decides why some things happen and some things don't. It contradicts the idea that man is the master of his own destiny. Also, the whole predestination idea includes an already set future, which I don't like because again, the Force controls everything. Because of this, a future cannot be shaped, nor altered in any possible way. This idea of total control with a set past, present, and future makes it seem like people are slaves to the Force. Picture a puppet show, with the Force being the puppet master, and everything else being the puppet. While I like this game, I don't like the idea of what the Force can do and I think this idea was brought into Star Wars with the prequel trilogy.

 

Now for the Jedi. They are supposed to be the knights in shining armor, with the traits of honor, and chivalry. However, when you look at the Jedi Council, you think (or at least I do)"What the f**k is wrong with them!?" When it came to the Mandalorian Wars, they refused to enter the war immediately to save the Republic (which they are sworn to protect) because their code forbade them. Apparently going to war to save others is a path that leads to "the dark side" and all those that followed Revan were wrong. If Revan and the Jedi that followed him never went to war, the Republic would have been crushed because of the idiots in the Jedi Council. The Jedi Civil War happened because all those that followed Revan ended up hating the council and switched to the other extreme (aka following the dark side).

 

Now lets fast forward to Dantooine, where the Jedi Masters were gathered by the Exile. They decided that they should cut the Exile of from the Force because of her ability to make strong bonds and being a so-called "wound" in the Force. First, who the hell died and granted them the ability to decide the Exile's fate? I think Kreia and Atton are right when they call the Jedi arrogant. Kreia is especially right about a lot of things that the Jedi do, which is why she isn't that bad when you think about it. The Jedi seem to have a superiority complex because they think they know what is best for everyone and that they are always right. The Jedi and Sith both look to control others, however they both have completely different ways of going at it. I mean lets face it, the first Sith used to be Jedi, but they just left for ideological reasons. Another problem with Jedi is that they think they're higher than everyone just because they are Force sensitive. I dislike them because they don't understand what it means to be human. Sure, they do help a lot by being diplomats and are excellent defenders, but their ideals are a bit messed up and they help so much that the Republic cannot even function on its own, and that is not good for a government.

 

I'm not criticizing the game, especially since it opened me up to all this, but these are just, what I think, flaws of the Jedi and the Force.

 

What do you think?

[Guest Crixler]

I think you should read Traitor, in the NJO series. It shows the Force in a way that is drastically different than any other book or game, basically.

It proposes the idea that there is no light side and no dark side, and the Force has no will. It's just there, and it's completely neutral. Any light or dark side lies within the user.

I like that view on the Force, myself.

[Guest We are called Legion...]

I just finished playing a complete game of Kotor recently and got a lot out of paying close attention to the story again. This game showed me that the Force is in many ways comparable to God, although not a direct parallel. From my perspective though, I don't really think that the fact that the Force has a will necessarily means that people don't have free will. I do not view the Force as a rigid puppet master, but more of a subtle influencer. As Yoda said, "Always in motion, the future is." I think that people can act in ways that are not in line with (or even go against) the will of the Force. My understanding of the Force's will is that, one way or another, the Force WILL bring balance and order to the galaxy, but all of the details depend on wether or not individuals are willing to follow the Force's will. The Force may have a grand master plan, but it is not set in stone. Even the force needs to make some detours on the path to balance.

 

 

I do completely agree with your sentiments about the Jedi, their arrogance, and their lack of emotions. Emotions do not lead to the darkside, it is what you do with those emotions that will lead you down the darkside, or even further along on the lightside. The best way to understand and help real people, is to actually be real people. I have no clue why the Jedi did not go to war to save the Republic from the Mandalorians. In this situation, the best way to bring peace would be to go to war.

But, as with things in our own world, things that are run by people are inherintly flawed and susceptible to corruption, no matter how good their actual goals are.

[Guest S4crifice]

@ hkmandalore47

 

I partially agree with you on the 'Mandalorian Wars' part. I too find the Jedi council's passivity annoying enough. On the other side, i think that they shouldn't have acted too fast to retalliate against the mandalorians since the jedi order is supposed to be a somewhat neutral party that does not interfere with the republic's affairs unless absolutely neccessary and after being asked to intervene. A move too soon would only show as a sign of protecting their 'turf', which would cause imbalance in the republic and question the Order's motives and role in that society. I am not sure but i think that Kreia states that the core of the Republic is the Jedi Order, that the republic is the Order's 'protection'.

And do not forget in Kotor 1 where as Revan you are questioned by a terminal which you would do in different scenarios, in order to identify you as Revan. If you remember the question about having knowledge of an incoming attack and your people have grown to question you rule, the 'right' answer was to let the attack happen, suffer casualties but have the people united/rallied against an outsider attack, thus prolonging the existence of your rule.

my point is that, jedi have sith holocrons in their disposal as well, and not all tactics are evil...

Also, i believe that the jedi teachings have grown obsolete, because demonizing the dark side of the force did not accomplish the target of not becoming corrupted from it during the mandalorian wars. However, the dark side nexus preexisting on mandalore iv before the battle there, did play a significant role in the corruption...

 

As far as the Force is concerned, i disagree that it gives you semi-godly powers. Yes the Exile is OP, Yes Revan is OP, but all the sith assassins that you killed or the dark side apprentices were not, and they died. So the mere ability to use the force does not grant you 'GOD MODE cheat activated', it is the potential you have in it that does. And not everyone had Yoda's or Anakin's potential...

 

i am displeased, however, that on a conversation you only support the one side. To be more specific, you only write about the 'bads' of the jedi while you let the sith go unnoticed. They have more sceletons in their closet than the jedi, both in their ideology and in their actions, but nothing on them...

 

Closing, i will say this:

The Jedi call themselves peacekeepers, the Sith call the Jedi peacemakers.

Can you spot the difference?

[Guest bendarby24]

renember this

mace window:

 

"we are protecters of the peice not warriers"

[Mandalore 61]

I totally agree with you on the point of Jedi arrogance, and that the Force should not be there to control everything. While I do believe free will is essential, I think it would be advantageous to have something like the Seldon Plan from Isaac Asimov's Foundation saga, something that does not control but guide, still giving choice to deviate but suggesting a course.

I believe that the Jedi should have gone to war from the point of view of the Republic, but the Galaxy would have been spared more pain had they not. If the Mandalorians had defeated the Republic and crushed the Jedi Order, there would be no Jedi Civil War because Revan and Malak would've died.

[Guest hkmandalore47]

@we are called legion...- thats true

 

@bendarby- i actually like mace because he seems more human than the rest of the jedi. he is agressive, yet he is not a sith, which i like. i cant really stand the fact that if you do one thing, it automatically makes you a jedi or sith.

 

@s4crifice- i havent played KotOR 1 so i dont really know too much of what happened there. this is just based on my understanding of TSL. when i said "demigod" i mean the force gave them amazing powers that put them at a great advantage to normal people that could make them unstoppable. i didnt really present the Sith too much because their problems are more obvious and are easily seen. the whole thing being one-sided, well this is pretty much my opinion on the issue, so that could explain it. about intervening with the republic, yea you're right that the Jedi arent really supposed to intervene. However, the Jedi are sworn to protect the Republic, and something like the Mandalorian Wars pretty much calls for the Jedi to help. also what did you mean by "mandalore iv"? did you mean malachor v?

 

@mandalore- thats true, but then the mandalorians would get pwned against the jedi >

[Mandalore 61]

Mandalore IV is Mandalore the Preserver, a.k.a. Canderous, just for reference.

 

I don't think the Jedi would beat us. It was only through Revan using our tactics against us that we fell, and Revan wouldn't have led if he didn't go to war with us.

[Guest hkmandalore47]

Mandalore IV is Mandalore the Preserver, a.k.a. Canderous, just for reference.

 

I don't think the Jedi would beat us. It was only through Revan using our tactics against us that we fell, and Revan wouldn't have led if he didn't go to war with us.

good point. those jedi are too pacifistic. and i never knew they actually gave numbers to mandalore, i knew his title though.

 

i had to get this out cuz the jedi are just so frustratingly stupid and the idea behind the force is a bit messed up.

 

anyone else have an opinion on this?

[Mandalore 61]

They didn't actually number them, Canderous was just the fourth one. Before him was Ultimate, then Indomitable, then First. Mandalore the First is the only numbered one, because Mandalore was his actual name.

[Guest S4crifice]

 

@s4crifice- also what did you mean by "mandalore iv"? did you mean malachor v?

 

 

That was what i meant though i wrote it wrongly....

 

Also, the translation of the word pacifistic in my language is a word whose meaning is 'one who loves peace'. I fail to see why this is a bad trait for the Jedi....

I do not find someone admirable who always seeks war, or battle. But that's just me.

Indeed the whole issue of the Jedi being always good, and the Sith being always bad is it makes them one-dimentional characters. That is why i believe they have writen books where, let's say, Luke almost falls to the dark side, or later uses cunning/deception, a characteristic of the Sith.

The latest series 'Fate of the Jedi' (i hate grey advertising and i am sorry for it) has a very interesting, to me, plot, quite different from most jedi-sith confrontations.

 

Building the story further than the Rebellion era,I think they try to make them more...'human' ((the Jedi at least), they are from many species other than human). The Sith's code is too restricting to let room for character development, which i do not like, since the 'the galaxy belongs to us because... it does' argument is laughable to say the least.