zbyl2

The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION

197 posts in this topic

 

2 hours ago, sELFiNDUCEDcOMA said:

The horror... 

 

I finished watching this. I cringed. A lot.

All this energy hating on Kathleen Kennedy would be better served doing something actually productive.

Thinking firing KK will change anything is like thinking firing Ellen Pao changed anything at Reddit.
(If people don't understand what I mean by this I'd be happy to further clarify this, but I'm short on time these weeks)

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58 minutes ago, 1Leonard said:

Thinking firing KK will change anything is like thinking firing Ellen Pao changed anything at Reddit.

I think that the situation is not entirely the same. I'm not a reddit user/fan, but, they don't seem to be in the entertainment business having spent 4 billion on an IP that came with an existing established fan-base they needed to sell future products to -- the SW franchise. Then allowed  that fan-base to be vilified because they saw that The Last Jedi,  and though being a good looking film, thought it was an utter turd that shat on The Force Awakens and the original trilogy, so as to push an agenda at all costs -- even story.

These fans no longer trust critic reviews, because they went to see The Last Jedi because critics said it was the best Star Wars film ever. This resulted in the film doing less at the box office compared to The Force Awakens, as these fans did not return to the cinema for repeat viewings. Then when Solo came out, they opted to send a message to Lucasfilm (Disney) by not spending their money to see it. And no I actually don't think this was due to an organised boycott -- lots of fans came to this conclusion on their own, and those that aren't fans, simply decided that a SW film was no longer an indicator of money well spent and best use of their leisure time.

Money talks, and a loss of money (revenue) to Disney makes things like Kathleen Kennedy being fired for her role in all this as the head of Lucasfilm, a reality -- even if at the moment they are having a hard time finding someone to take the job after KK made it toxic. It may not make much of a difference, but it is a first (critical) step.

Personally, I think the deciding factor will be the performance of SW IX, that will clarify the impact Rian Johnson's The Last Jedi has had on the profitability of Star Wars.

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One thing I dislike about the new EU is that it's all "canon" except when it's not. "Poe met Rey already in some frakkin' book? Nah, we need that in the movie!" So, it's literally the exact same as it was before, just Disney's version of it with added lip service to get you to buy more books.

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Posted (edited)

Ah, the ****ing "In ANH the Empire and Emperor got no explenation... REBOOT IS GOOD **** YOU **** YOU"

So ****ing tired of this... if you may notice.

Well, in the old trilogy that was fine since that's all we needed. If ANH ended with Vader dead and the Empire defeated starting ESB with them alive and in full force would raise tons of questions. As do TFA and TLJ. But instead of explaining how we got an entire 180 on the victory or ROTJ, JJ and Rian give us the finger and "deal with it"... we are supposed to root for the Rebels rebuilding the most pathetic waste of galactic breath ever; the New Republic. A system so ****ing incompetant a rebel fraction destroyed them all in ONE DAY between TFA and TLJ. Wow, I ****ing care for that. That's not the WORST IDEA EVER.

World building is important. Continuity is important. Don't just go "but the OT didn't have the Emperor explained so **** SNOKE. **** EVERYTHING. STAR WARS GUYS! STAR WAAAAAAARS" Yeah but the OT also didn't have 3 movies where we beat the ****ing crap out of the Empire only for it to sprout back since JJ and Rian got no ****ing ideas of their own but shitting over everything.

And so yeah, I got my full right to give these ****ers the finger. And be pissed. Is it obvious I'm pissed at them. And you for repeating this stupid ****ing argument again. How ****ing hard is it to grasp we are 3 movies in, we have had a conclusion and that got completely raped without explenation. You think that's good. Well, good for you since LucasFilm will keep making crappy shitty movies without brains you like until it no longer makes profit. Which is probably shorter than you wish since most fans do got taste, do care about the galaxy, don't want this claustrophobic galaxy TFA and TLJ show us where scale is non-existant. The parties freaking idiots all around.

I probably shouldn't have written this angry and tired but **** it, deal with it. You want to know how TLJ makes me feel, well here you go. Experience it.

Quote

What is Rey going to do with the Jedi texts? What will become of the Jedi? Will there be Jedi? What of the Resistance? What of the New Republic? What will happen to them? What did they do with Leia after Fisher died? Was Snoke or his species the first Jedi (he looks an awful lot like the image in that round pool of the first Jedi on Ach-To). 

Yes, I'm SURE we get answers to that, like who's Snoke, who are the Knights of Ren, what was the New Republic? Why a Rebellion? Why should I care?  How did Maz get the saber?

Oh wait a second... TLJ pissed all over them. But sweet dreams expecting this time to be the golden goose. As if they will not retcon Rian's shit out of existence wherever possible.

1) Who cares. MaRey Sue don't need them. People expect her to train Yoda to add injury to insult. I can see it happen.

2) Who cares? The last time the Jedi rose they failed so miserable why should we care. Oh we want Rey to succeed where Luke failed? **** NO.

3) Who cares? Everyone can use the Force now, Jedi are nothing special anymore. So amazing!

4) Who cares? The New Republic was a ****ing joke. The FO is a joke. The Resistance is a joke. I couldn't care less. Blow the Falcon up with them, see if I care. Probably would have prevented a terrible ninth movie coming. Oh that would have been the best 😕

5) Again, who cares? The previous NR sucked balls. So making another one is just being morons. They should just die.

6) The only worthwhile question, and that's a META question, not a movie question. There are only terrible ways to finish it after Ruin could finish it proper but didn't since he's an asshole.

7) Who cares? He's dead. How about caring about this before wiping him. You loved THAT after all, didn't you? If they explain it now it's the biggest dickpunch in existance. Hey... they probably will do it. And you will love it for some reason even if you went all "But Palpatine didn't get..." yeah, **** you. Anyway, I'm going to sleep.

Edited by VarsityPuppet
Rule 4: Excessive Language
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On 7/6/2018 at 3:08 PM, Hassat Hunter said:

So f-cking tired of this... if you may notice.

 

You could always help out Zbyl2 with EP 1.4.  You might be less cranky. ;) 

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On 7/6/2018 at 8:08 PM, Hassat Hunter said:

So fucking tired of this... if you may notice.

I am speechless, you just said almost everthing that has been in my mind since the force awakens first came.

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3 hours ago, Oaks said:

I am speechless, you just said almost everthing that has been in my mind since the force awakens first came.

Same. I just tuned those thoughts out after watching TFA and haven't looked back. Star Wars is irreparably changed at this point unless the following movies simply didn't happen. Essentially my feelings are recounted as thus: (If you will allow me the indulgence of using a somewhat recent expression) #NotmyStarWars

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I'll start with this - I do not feel the film is that bad. Granted, I tend to not look at anything with a pretense of "If it does not do what I want, it is bad". I'm technically not so fond of how Infinity War played out, but I'm not going to suggest I think the film is flawed solely because of my opinion. Though I tend to have more, malleable opinions, and not stick to the first thing I think of, or the first reaction I have to something in fiction.

I have seen quite a few videos on how apparently bad the film is, and while I can agree with some points, others I find seem to be ones proliferated by those who where, well, angry after seeing it, and those viewpoints have stuck, even if some, at least in my own opinion, are somewhat unwarranted. So I'll just comment on a few points at random.

"Rey as a Mary Sue"

I cannot entirely disagree with this. However, I'm thinking about the idea of her progression not being the same as that of Luke. Why must she do the exact same things? Be taught exactly how he was,  and perhaps retain the same flaws? Granted, her progression is quick, but how much of the force does she really use? A mind trick in the first film(on a FO trooper no less, which may or may not be as weak-minded as the original Stormtroopers were), a few instances between films of pulling things, and...being somewhat proficient with the lightsaber? Also, note that the first two, I think, are only things she does...AFTER Kylo has done it in front of her. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I think that is true, anyway. As for the lightsaber...maybe it could have used scene where she briefly notes the lack of weight, in comparison to her staff, but...she knows how to use the staff, so she has some basic comprehension in using melee combat at least. 

"Rey's family"

The fact that is is apparently a problem, meaning the answer given, is odd. If only because it seems people believe that her story should hinge on that of someone else, and she cannot, at all, and should not, stand on her own. Revan was like that too, and while I am unsure of what TOR did for his backstory, the games(i.e KotOR itself) say nothing. Was that unsatisfying? Yes, KotOR is an RPG, and it might be better if you can think for yourself as to what Revan's backstory is, but I'm not seeing too much of a difference for Rey. 

"Luke would not do that!"(I'm sure the meaning of this is obvious)

Oh, so he is on a pedestal now? He can't make a mistake? He shouldn't make a mistake? Even one so momentary, so quick, and soon after he does not do what he intended. But the damage is done, and it was not even because he acted. It is because he had a moment of weakness, and it cost him. 

"Fuel"

I mention this mostly due to the CinemaSins video. But obviously this is not the first time such a thing has been mentioned and I'm sure there are scenes of ships/fighters/etc being refueled. I wonder if people would have the same reaction to the suggestion of blasters running out of ammo? Rare yes, but not unheard of.

"Snoke"

I can say this might have been not too thought out. But, what exactly would you want him to say? Have him tell his entire backstory? Possibly not. More than this, it is possible that he was just a nobody in the right place. How many games, books, movies, etc, have characters exactly like that? 

"Kylo's Misdirection"

I'm not sure of this one being cited as an issue. But if it is...he does something I'd expect to see in TSL. He is going to "strike down his enemy"...is Snoke entirely sure he means Rey? Maybe this is likely 100% obvious, though some could still question as to why Snoke didn't realize what was going on. Sure, that might be a bit of a flaw, but how many Sith(and Jedi) are known for hubris? 

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Quoting is terrible now.

Anyways,

" Granted, I tend to not look at anything with a pretense of "If it does not do what I want, it is bad". "

FFS, not another 'Oh, you just hate it since it didn't meet your theories...' That has 0 to do with it, and I'm sick and tired of this BS-argument. If the mid-part of a trilogy takes a good old dump over the first part and leaves fuck all to set up for the third part, yes, it's terrible. DEAL WITH IT. Don't make these fake assumptions why people hate it when we spit the truth in your face.

 

It's not really the worst part she's a Mary Sue (though it helps none at all) it's that her arch is literally non-existent. We're 2 movies down and she's still a coardboard character with zero reason to even be in these movies. Especially in the second one, like most other characters, she does LITERALL NOTHING and adds nothing to the plot. About the only existence she has in this movie is to train from Luke... but guess what, that doesn't happen. There's literally nothing happening on the island that's in any way vital to the plot, and the Force DM stuff? Leads nowhere in the end and the payoff is "reset to zero".
Tell me again how this is a good movie.

 

Here it is again, for the thousand time... no one gives a DAMN about Rey's family. We just want a plausable reason for her powerlevel. Not that Ruin Johnson understands such concepts. Revan's power level was that he was an already trained Jedi. Even BioWare could write a good sollution modern LucasFilm cannot.

 

Yeah, Luke wouldn't do that. He turned his father who was literally Hitler after he killed billions. But no, his nephew who did nothing had to die cause "plot". I mean, they MIGHT have been able to sell this with a proper execution and actually spending some proper time on this but they didn't. It's just "Luke's terrible now, deal with it... and move on"... yeah, no. Nope, nope, nope.

 

The fuel argument is mostly since it leads to the most boring sequence of events ever, which takes the majority of the movie. Nobody would have minded fuel being a thing if it wasn't the driving point behind making the movie an unwatchable slog. I mean, we could all gather around a broken hyperdrive in V. Difference being it didn't take 80% of the movie on that.

 

Snoke: He's the main baddie. Kylo Ren is a moron, a non-threat and defeated twice already. He's not a good antagonist. Snoke was. But nope, he had to go and our big baddie is now... not a baddie at all. Again; the problem isn't that we got no backstory. It's that we got no backstory AND no meaningful existence in both movies AND it ruins any of the tension with him gone and Emo Ren in charge. Worst of all, we're 2 movies in, and we STILL don't know how the hell the most incompetant Republic EVER failed, lead to this guy, who died like a bitch. Okay, should we root for this farce of a government being restored. At this point, really, why the hell would anyone support the "Resistance" when they want to basically rebuild the cardboard palace made of Pazaak cards. Both sides are just the worst and stupid, and you can't root for either of them. Pretty much a death sentence for a movie that should make you invested in "the struggle".
Tell me again how this is a good movie?

 

Did anyone really not see it coming. I mean, seriously, Snoke couldn't shut the fuck up about this striking down. He might aswell literally say "And now I dieeeeeeeeeeeee"... that scene was just way too goddamn overnarrated. Probably since the director/writer can't actually properly write and just needs an exposition dump for what's clear as day, ruining the scene in the process. And then we go back to the point this ruins any remaining tension of the trilogy, no explenation at all how the FO is how it is (or how their one base of operation dying made them stronger). Nothing. And then EVERY LEADUP IN THE MOVIE is reset for good vs. evil on Hoth 2.0, where the trilogy's storyline is ended in act II.
Tell me again... how is this a good movie?

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That deleted scene in the elevator... wow 😮

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It's still pretty stupid but in that context it's atleast 2000% less stupid than Rose's line. It's similar but nothing alike.

@Zbyl: You never seen it before?

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Lol HK. Might as well argue that Jar-Jar is a good character.

 

The elevator scene? No

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I even forgot that with Rose line, she says sacrifice is bad (fuck you, sister) and then goes about "saving your friends" while all their friends are going to die in the background (fuck you friends of the resistance).

Like... really... even if the line wasn't cringey as is (it was), the context it was given in is astronomically bad.

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On Hoth, were they not sending 2 ships at a time to ensure one was getting through? Isnt that a sacrifice? Werent the speeders sent out to delay the ATATs so that the vessels could escape sacrificing their lives so the rest could make it? Didnt Han and Leia literally go on a suicide mission on endor? No sacrifices hah?

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RLM just posted a video review of the movie. That's all I can say. ;)

Drat!  Parametric preemptively ninja'd me. 

 

However, Plinkett's point about the structure being unfocused (four distinct and equally important C stories that just kind of end) and the mood not matching the circumstances (The cheerful scenes at the end in spite the massive body count) were quite fascinating. 

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19 hours ago, Haveayap said:

On Hoth, were they not sending 2 ships at a time to ensure one was getting through? Isnt that a sacrifice? Werent the speeders sent out to delay the ATATs so that the vessels could escape sacrificing their lives so the rest could make it? Didnt Han and Leia literally go on a suicide mission on endor? No sacrifices hah?

It was a two fighter escort for each transport. That isn't sacrifice, that's a job, just like the attack carried out on the Star Destroyers when the Resistance was escaping. Delaying the AT-ATs was a type of sacrifice, yes, but it wasn't a reckless or pointless one like Finn's would have been. Finn would have failed and his death would have been pointless. The Air speeders on Hoth were helping the Rebels escape (which wasn't going to fail), just as all of the Resistance pilots in the speeders were trying to do, but failed to do. If you want, you could say any attempt to fight the Empire was a sacrifice. Yet were the sacrifices pointless or not? That is what was pointed out by that tweet I posted, if anyone actually took the time to read it all. And the mission on Endor wasn't a suicide mission. It was a covert op to take out a barely defended shield generator.

 

 

The whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" is so incorrect. HH, you contradicted yourself by saying she is a Mary Sue and then you say "she did LITERALLY NOTHING". A "Mary Sue" is a character whom everybody loves and who does everything right. Practically perfect in every way, but to such a degree that the character becomes almost a parody. Or more directly: A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of the story, such as by saving the hero. Rey, is none of that nor did she do any of that. If Rey *was* a Mary Sue, she would have done and won everything. But she didn't. She didn't save the Resistance, she didn't turn Kylo, she didn't kill Snoke. She found Luke, flew the Falcon as Chewie's copilot, fought the Dark Guard *with* Kylo's aid, and lifted rocks. She's stubborn and headstrong, like when she foolishly races off to try to turn Kylo, walking right into Snoke's trap (much like Luke rushing off to face Vader on Bespin). Being able to use the Force and fight a partially trained and heavily wounded Kylo on Starkiller base with no training is not being a Mary Sue.

 

Snoke's death being drug out... may have been an attempt at comedy, though I didn't find it funny. And I'm not convinced we're left with nothing. I'm not convinced that was it. It did show his overconfidence (a common theme in SW).

"It's that we got no backstory AND no meaningful existence in both movies..."

YET. Take note that the image of the first Jedi in the middle of the center of the temple room on Ach-To looks an awful lot like Snoke. Or he's really a nobody, so it doesn't matter. Basically he's just a pawn. In the TLJ novelization, Sonke says that he was Force sensitive at a young age being able to see premonitions of the future with constant reiterations of himself as the fulcrum (something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity). Meaning he was just a pawn to get the real scenario started. There's more to it. There's also the RJ SW trilogy to come out, which could very well go into detail about Snoke. His black stone ring has a connection to Vader and a possible connection to the ancient Sith. Finally, you're assuming he *is* dead. I enjoy the channel Star Wars Theory. The guy does a lot of theorizing to make sense of things. And he reasons on it well, without saying "this is fact".

 

How did the New Republic fail? Well, IIRC that's explained in the comics. Or it is possibly to be revealed more in the new Vader comics. Regardless, unless it's mentioned in the new animated series or Ep9, it's one of those things where the movies are relying on the comics and books to fill in the gaps. Before the comics were simply fans filling in the gaps with Lucas' approval. I've also noticed, like the OT and PT novelization, the movie makes more sense when those are read (as well as multiple viewings of the ST). But I partly agree, why rebuild something that failed again. Maybe something new? Maybe find that balance and achieve peace? Ehhh. It's too much crammed into three movies. Or at least, as I said, we're used to the EU supporting the movies, not the movies and the EU supporting each other.

 

Ep9 is supposed to bring everything together. So we'll have to see. Until then, do some theory crafting of your own. Don't wait for it to be spoon fed to you. Read, reason, and theorize. Until you are given the answer from the official source, make it make sense to you.

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Rey's a Mary Sue. That doesn't exclude doing absolutely nothing in the movie. The "SWJ!" theoriest think it's because they can't have a MAN training a WOMAH so instead they do fuck all on the island instead. I'm not sure if I believe that, but there's no denying Rey inside the movie does;

1. Nothing at all with Luke.

2. Force Skype with Kylo which is interesting, but the climax is in Ruin Johnson style "nothing" and basically reboot to zero; ie nothing.

3. Saved Kylo Ren (a ten+ year trained Jedi/Sith) showing once again he's her bitch and the confrontation in IX is pointless.

4. 360noscope 3- TIE fighters in her very first use of the Millenium Falcon turret (can you say Mary Sue?), luring away ALL TIE-Fighters cause the First Order is the worst military system EVER.

5. Lifting rocks to complete her arch of "being bored of being powerful" (thank you Mauler).

It would be something if she did everything else alongside with it too. Then again, we would have saved more of these dreadful movies, so there would have been that...

" YET "

Wow, yeah, they spend 0 (ZERO) effort on world-building in the first 2 movies. I'm suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure they will make up for all of it in the final movie.
Yeah, that's sarcasm. If JJ wasn't capable of even mediocre worldbuilding at the start of the trilogy, who has hope he will add to the last. You apparently. How foolish you are.

" There's also the RJ SW trilogy to come out, "

Fuck no I hope there isn't. And if Disney does it, I hope they like 200 million losses like Solo. There's no way this ain't cancelled unless Disney collectively goes braindead. Also RJ goes into detail on the guy he went "fuck this guy, just write him out.", are you serious?

" Ep9 is supposed to bring everything together. So we'll have to see. Until then, do some theory crafting of your own. Don't wait for it to be spoon fed to you. Read, reason, and theorize. Until you are given the answer from the official source, make it make sense to you.  "

Yeah, that's how trilogies work. But when the middle part gives the finger to part I and leaves zero setup for III, the very firm establishment of a trilogy is already thrown out the window, so who knows what happens. Who cares? I'm not going to do theory-crafting on this pile of poo. I'm not going to write Ruin Johnson's screwed up plotholes explenations for him. It sucks so far, and there's little reason to believe IX sucks again with JJ in charge. I have no interest in this mess what-so-ever. The best Disney could do is trash this entirely trilogy and make better anthology movies like Rogue One, or make a PROPER trilogy, with planning and such.

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On 9/2/2018 at 10:35 AM, HK-47 said:

 

It was a two fighter escort for each transport. That isn't sacrifice, that's a job, just like the attack carried out on the Star Destroyers when the Resistance was escaping. Delaying the AT-ATs was a type of sacrifice, yes, but it wasn't a reckless or pointless one like Finn's would have been. Finn would have failed and his death would have been pointless. The Air speeders on Hoth were helping the Rebels escape (which wasn't going to fail), just as all of the Resistance pilots in the speeders were trying to do, but failed to do. If you want, you could say any attempt to fight the Empire was a sacrifice. Yet were the sacrifices pointless or not? That is what was pointed out by that tweet I posted, if anyone actually took the time to read it all. And the mission on Endor wasn't a suicide mission. It was a covert op to take out a barely defended shield generator.

 

 

The whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" is so incorrect. HH, you contradicted yourself by saying she is a Mary Sue and then you say "she did LITERALLY NOTHING". A "Mary Sue" is a character whom everybody loves and who does everything right. Practically perfect in every way, but to such a degree that the character becomes almost a parody. Or more directly: A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of the story, such as by saving the hero. Rey, is none of that nor did she do any of that. If Rey *was* a Mary Sue, she would have done and won everything. But she didn't. She didn't save the Resistance, she didn't turn Kylo, she didn't kill Snoke. She found Luke, flew the Falcon as Chewie's copilot, fought the Dark Guard *with* Kylo's aid, and lifted rocks. She's stubborn and headstrong, like when she foolishly races off to try to turn Kylo, walking right into Snoke's trap (much like Luke rushing off to face Vader on Bespin). Being able to use the Force and fight a partially trained and heavily wounded Kylo on Starkiller base with no training is not being a Mary Sue.

 

Snoke's death being drug out... may have been an attempt at comedy, though I didn't find it funny. And I'm not convinced we're left with nothing. I'm not convinced that was it. It did show his overconfidence (a common theme in SW).

"It's that we got no backstory AND no meaningful existence in both movies..."

YET. Take note that the image of the first Jedi in the middle of the center of the temple room on Ach-To looks an awful lot like Snoke. Or he's really a nobody, so it doesn't matter. Basically he's just a pawn. In the TLJ novelization, Sonke says that he was Force sensitive at a young age being able to see premonitions of the future with constant reiterations of himself as the fulcrum (something that plays a central role in or is in the center of a situation or activity). Meaning he was just a pawn to get the real scenario started. There's more to it. There's also the RJ SW trilogy to come out, which could very well go into detail about Snoke. His black stone ring has a connection to Vader and a possible connection to the ancient Sith. Finally, you're assuming he *is* dead. I enjoy the channel Star Wars Theory. The guy does a lot of theorizing to make sense of things. And he reasons on it well, without saying "this is fact".

 

How did the New Republic fail? Well, IIRC that's explained in the comics. Or it is possibly to be revealed more in the new Vader comics. Regardless, unless it's mentioned in the new animated series or Ep9, it's one of those things where the movies are relying on the comics and books to fill in the gaps. Before the comics were simply fans filling in the gaps with Lucas' approval. I've also noticed, like the OT and PT novelization, the movie makes more sense when those are read (as well as multiple viewings of the ST). But I partly agree, why rebuild something that failed again. Maybe something new? Maybe find that balance and achieve peace? Ehhh. It's too much crammed into three movies. Or at least, as I said, we're used to the EU supporting the movies, not the movies and the EU supporting each other.

 

Ep9 is supposed to bring everything together. So we'll have to see. Until then, do some theory crafting of your own. Don't wait for it to be spoon fed to you. Read, reason, and theorize. Until you are given the answer from the official source, make it make sense to you.

Movies should not not rely on third sources to provide us with important information in general. That was always my biggest criticism of TPM aswell (A movie I personally enjoy). Saying "Because a comic showed us this isnt a plothole" doesnt make the movies story or writing any better. 

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