zbyl2

The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION

171 posts in this topic

I only remember one time he lost saber and it was cut in half so it wouldn't be that one. Don't think we will ever know how it came to be found since Disney seem hell bent on destroying anything to do with the original films and they have succeeded quite well.

That one was in the episode 2 and it is not the same model. But the clone wars series used the same design of episode 3. And you are right, Disney will destroy star wars before episode 9 is launched.

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I've just wrote this giant piece somewhere and I kinda want to preserve it just incase I need it in the future, so have another piece of my mind, 3 months later.

 

 

I would've linked my RT review but that site is so terrible and I can't find how to login in any way... I remember that being an issue when I wanted to post it aswell. :/

 

Thanks for actually answering.

I personally don't like the Luke thing. He already WAS a legend, TFA even literally granted him that status along with Han Solo even if the events where 30 years old. It didn't need to rebrand him a legend, he already was. Not to mention the way it was done (by literally doing nothing being not there and just hologramming) wasn't much to be hopeful about. Who even broadcasted that fight across the galaxy? The only one who could would be the First Order, but why would they. And how would the Galaxy get hope from "so that guy fought our boss and then just faded out and we were all wtf and all?" compared to, I don't know, blowing up Starkiller Base. Apparently nobody cared about that (bar, ugh, Rose) but some old man using a hologram is hope... at that point I really was all "wtf?" myself along with the First Order troops.

Can understand the bombers even though I personally would prefer function over style. Yes, Kylo and Rey where definitely the high-point of the movie. Can't say I agree with you Rey being the best (Mary Sue and all) but Kylo's okay. Don't think as a main villain though, he did just fine as conflicted apprentice :/

The same mistake as his father... killing younglings? Yeah, apparently so but I can't honestly seeing any evaluation of Luke coming to that conclusion myself.

Sadly enough for me I don't accept "I see what they tried to do". Do or don't, there is no try. The most problematic I think about Finn is that the TLJ arch is literally the TFA arch re-done. Why do we need him to go through the same discovery twice? That's not very interesting.

The both sides get the same tech thing could have been interesting if it went somewhere, but it just sizzles out. And I think the "darker side to the Rebels" was much better done in Rogue One. In TLJ the Rebellion feels more pure evil (tasering people who flee from a voluntary Force, Holdo) than conflicted good (or pure good from the originals). I can't care for them. Infact I rather wished the First Order as this movie progressed.

But Kylo is a terrible villain (see Hoth 2.0). He's a good apprentice but not a boss. There's no progression for Kylo killing him either since while it seemed momentarily as he had a moment as soon as Rey said no all progress was immediately reset. And since Snoke is the key element in the Rise of the First Order and the galaxy being in was again after VI it definitely would be nice to know something, anything how that came to happen. As key figure to the re-rise of the Empire I can hardly call him "no one special" yet the movie painted him that way.

They literally lost 2 people in the 18 hour space chase. The loss of life was signifcantly higher in the assault on the Dreadnaught, the sudden aborted assault after hyperspace on the transports and Crait. Which are, in order, incompetance, wtf?, Holdo being an idiot, ruined by Rose.

I can't really like Luke... The Matrix in my Star Wars? It would be excusable to have such a lame scene, IMO, if it setup his escape. But in the end he died anyway, so why not have a climactic ending for Luke, a proper reason for the heroes to fight, actual reason to fear Kylo AT ALL. There's just so much wrong with the choice of making Luke's fight anti-climactic and not even have the payoff of survival. If you wanted him dead, make it have an actual impact in the story. Rather than "woosh, gone, why even do it?" Mind you, I don't specificially disagree with Luke dying, as said; it's the bad way it's been executed. Make him fight and die with an impact, or have him hide behind the Force and live. Don't have an anticlimactic fight without any payoff.

 

Anyway, thanks for being one of the very few people who are willing to discuss it in a civiled manner, without belittling either side, argumenting the movie, not the people. As for why the impact, it is one of the most impactful movie-franchises in history. I may not have lived in 1977 but even watching it when I did it influenced me that I became a big Star Wars fan. I rather liked the prequels (nor did I hear much bad about that until recent years) so when learning more movies were coming of my favorite franchise of course I was excited. I mean, it's not like I've got many movies that affected me this much when I was young and they already butchered Indiana Jones. I even understood TFA playing it safe (though I didn't like it) cause apparently the prequels where villainised. But it surely would payoff with the second, and watching Rogue One which I loved it was all shaping up to getting something good. To then get such the hammer on you that you spend the rest of the day almost in shock... To have the mythos of Star Wars setup in 6 movies before so blatently ignored. Too much for me.

"I think that's how the fan base got divided. U either like what happened or u don't."

It's sadly not that simple. While like what happened or don't would be valid for a single movie, for the 8th in a franchise, second in a trilogy, that's got a lot more weight. If it was isolated, a standalone like Rogue One I doubt anyone would bat an eye. Forget it and move on. But since it undid all the progress of VII, left nothing for IX, retconned a lot of lore of 7 previous movies. VII already got plenty of doubt and much scorn for Solo and the state of the galaxy being undone, but by not explaining anything but rather doing his own thing Rian also took that scorn upon himself along with the new one he manufactured. It even goes as far to state the whole dark/light thing is cyclical. No doubt to make infinite Star Wars stories, but all it ends up making it feel is that everything is pointless. I-VI? Pointless. VII-IX? Pointless. If it's all pointless, why should I be invested in watching more of these movies? We need payoff's, and if those are undone like VII did we need a proper reasoning to care for a new situation rather than "why care? It's all pointless. It'll always be pointless" cause then I'll just walk away.

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I was thinking about the skywalker lightsaber some time ago and this come to my mind: Anakin loses his lightsaber in some moments in the clone wars series, at least two if I am not mistaken. So, the lightsaber in TFA and TLJ could have been one of these that Anakin lost, is more plausible than recovering the one lost in Bespin.

 

The Thrawn trilogy of the Legends universe did mention that Luke's biological hand from Bespin was recovered, so it stands to reason the Luke's lightsaber could have been recovered from Bespin. 

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Of course that does raise the question... why make it a mystery rather than just say so.

 

We all know the answer (JJ) but still...

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It was better than I was expecting. I actually put off seeing it because of all the bad I've been hearing about it, and what The Force Awakens was like.

 

But it wasn't great, certainly not like the Original Trilogy was. Or even the Prequels.

 

The most annoying part was Admiral Holda (purple hair). I couldn't stand her. She's supposed to be an admiral, vice admiral at that- in the US Navy, that is a political appointment, a three star admiral. I couldn't tell if this was you go grrrl, or a spoof ridiculing women in the military, she was so bad. She flounces around in an evening gown or whatever that was, gives bad orders, and sneers at the young pilots. Then you have the mutinies. Was this a comedy of errors or what? Then she sort of redeemed herself in the end- getting rid of her, but why did they have to off Admiral Akbar? I suppose they are offing the old guard, like the you-tubers are saying.

 

And Rey.

 

I had been sort of annoyed that the only speaking female jedi previously had been old Jocasta Nu, and how the female jedi went down without a fight in the RTS. I wanted to see a decent female Jedi. and they served up this mary sue. I happened to hate the term mary sue, but it fits. If they had done something to show a learning curve for her- like they had done with Luke, she would have been more believable. Some critics make a big deal of how stoic, or apparently angry she is, and I can overlook that. Why not have a tough female character. But not like this.

 

The casino planet was kind of a waste of time- I guess they wanted to have their version of the cantina, but it's weak.

 

Snoke, who was this guy? He wasn't compelling like Palpatine. Hell, Ian Mcdiarmid/Palpatine carried the Prequels, and Palpatine was already a compelling character by the end of the OT. Snoke was just there, and Kylo Ren. There's some backstory to this somewhere, and I suppose they'll serve it up eventually, but there's no hooks other than wondering why are these two there, and what made Kylo really start towards the dark side? There's just not a strong story here.

 

Yes, I do think Rogue One is the best of the new movies. I like it because it focused on soldiers, grunts, renegades, outlaws, and ordinary folk, instead of the Jedi and Sith.

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So YouTube it it's ability to nag you with videos that are "Recommended for you", tossed these two videos my way. Normally I ignore them until either they go away on their own, or I tell them to go away. This time, however, I gave in and watched these. I'm glad I did.

This first one, discusses fanatics and false expectations (like snoke, rey, and luke). What's said about the ST, goes for the PT as well in regards to fanatics and false expectations. Things were fine until the fanatics cried out, and then it's been nothing but hate. They revere the OT as perfection. That's false. The IV and V were ground breaking. That's it. But the fanatics are willing to excuse the flaws of the OT due to their view of it, but refuse to do the same for the new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOG3Rze8UVU

So ask yourself the following: Am I a fanatic? Does any of this apply to me? If so, am I willing to change?

If you answered "no" to all three, you're part of the problem and lying to yourself. That's not harsh, that's the way it is. I can't tell you what to think or do any more than anyone else can. Only you can do that. But I can share with you truth so you can decide after reasoning on the facts. I can also remind you: It's unhealthy to be fanatical about something. A fanatic is unwilling to see any side but their own because, as mentioned, they're always right 100% of the time.

 

This other one is really cool, and brings out a point that many, usually in their fanatical hate, completely missed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOG3Rze8UVU

 

Liked them? PM me to tell me. 

Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered.

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I watched the video and I disagree with the points brought up in the movie. I still do not like The Last Jedi.

I don't think that makes me a fanatic.

Quote

So ask yourself the following: Am I a fanatic? Does any of this apply to me? If so, am I willing to change?

If you answered "no" to all three, you're part of the problem and lying to yourself. 

Quote

Liked them? PM me to tell me. 

Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it.

Saying things like this doesn't really show that you have an open or humble mind.

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4 hours ago, HK-47 said:

If you answered "no" to all three, you're part of the problem and lying to yourself.

So, by that logic, everyone is a fanatic, including the ones who liked the movie...

 

4 hours ago, HK-47 said:

Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered.

You are the Incarnation of the Spirit of every discussion forum.

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2 hours ago, VarsityPuppet said:

Saying things like this doesn't really show that you have an open or humble mind.

I have my personal reasons that I do not have to share. As I said, there's nothing anyone can say in rebuttal against the points in the video or TLJ that I haven't read already, nothing that hasn't already been said, and I'm not discussing the negative part of the topic. I thought I'd share so that those with the mind you described might recognize the reality of the situation. As I also stated, I cannot change anyone's mind. They have to be willing to do that themselves.

 

23 minutes ago, Spectrometer said:

So, by that logic, everyone is a fanatic, including the ones who liked the movie...

 

You are the Incarnation of the Spirit of every discussion forum.

You didn't watch the video. Had you watched it, you would have seen the definition of a fanatic, and what a SW fanatic is. You would then know that I am referring to that.

 

The above were in response to "Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered." 

The point of that, which I failed to make clear, is that I have already discussed the topic with others here already, as well as elsewhere. So all anyone in disagreement would do, is repeat what they have already said. It was also to deter anyone from sending me a PM to express their disagreements. I've already heard everyone attack it like a hateful fanatic, and then attack me like I'm a supportive fanatic which I'm not.

So yeah, I don't want to hear it. I'm not going to return to this thread. The point of the post was to get folks to think and consider or reason on points made on both sides so they can avoid being a fanatic about it, which has been very very prevalent here. I should have left out a part of it, but I didn't. I've already got a hated view of me from most folks here anyway, right? Even my attempts to help are. I might as well keep up appearances.

 

Disagree? So be it. Agree? So be it.

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Addendum and my final post in this thread.

 

My only intent, is to be helpful and share something cool. I thought "Hey, maybe this might make some view things differently. Maybe someone missed something, and a video that doesn't come from a hard core SW fan such as myself would go over better than one that is."

 But as per usual, I am the aggressor with the wrong opinion that needs to be corrected. I cannot be right about anything because you are the one that's mad and disagrees because it didn't live up to what you think it should be, regardless of the facts provided. I'm not capable of knowing anything and am the pinnacle of a complete moron. I am pretty sure there was something mentioned in that video about fanatics having the 100% right all the time opinion.

 

I come across as harsh because I'm being direct, to the point, and sometimes I post my thoughts more than I should. I never imply or insinuate. I have had good discussions about these topics, but it's here where folks get very hostile and fanatical with their opinion. I have tried using reason, logic, and questions. Nothing has done any good. Everyone has their points and want to hear only that which they agree with. I have browsed many places and seen the same discussions multiple times. I have seen good discussions, not arguments, about it. I then come back here and see all the same negative points being made here, with no willingness to change one's opinion. None. It's a very sad and depressing thing to see.

 

If you're offended, then I am sorry that I was too direct or posted a thought that I should have edited out or left out completely. If you're offended, I'm sorry for trying to help you do a self-examination about your position on the matter.

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9 hours ago, HK-47 said:

Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered.

Oh look, someone who liked The Last Jedi who dismissed literally all conversation about the movie.

Wow, I wish this would surprise me, but it doesn't.

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4 hours ago, HK-47 said:

 But as per usual, I am the aggressor with the wrong opinion that needs to be corrected. I cannot be right about anything because you are the one that's mad and disagrees because it didn't live up to what you think it should be, regardless of the facts provided. I'm not capable of knowing anything and am the pinnacle of a complete moron. I am pretty sure there was something mentioned in that video about fanatics having the 100% right all the time opinion. 

Nope. But it's rather hard to argue properly when you throw down HERE, YOU ARE FANATICS.

Don't counter, shut up, accept it. SUCK IT.

Yeeeeeah.... maybe posting that way kinda contradicts 100% your entire argument. But apparently it's pointless discussing this since you don't want to discuss it. Just tell us we're fanatics and then just suck it up or shut up.

HAH, no.

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23 hours ago, HK-47 said:

I have my personal reasons that I do not have to share. As I said, there's nothing anyone can say in rebuttal against the points in the video or TLJ that I haven't read already, nothing that hasn't already been said, and I'm not discussing the negative part of the topic. I thought I'd share so that those with the mind you described might recognize the reality of the situation. As I also stated, I cannot change anyone's mind. They have to be willing to do that themselves.

 

You didn't watch the video. Had you watched it, you would have seen the definition of a fanatic, and what a SW fanatic is. You would then know that I am referring to that.

 

The above were in response to "Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered." 

The point of that, which I failed to make clear, is that I have already discussed the topic with others here already, as well as elsewhere. So all anyone in disagreement would do, is repeat what they have already said. It was also to deter anyone from sending me a PM to express their disagreements. I've already heard everyone attack it like a hateful fanatic, and then attack me like I'm a supportive fanatic which I'm not.

So yeah, I don't want to hear it. I'm not going to return to this thread. The point of the post was to get folks to think and consider or reason on points made on both sides so they can avoid being a fanatic about it, which has been very very prevalent here. I should have left out a part of it, but I didn't. I've already got a hated view of me from most folks here anyway, right? Even my attempts to help are. I might as well keep up appearances.

 

Disagree? So be it. Agree? So be it.

Oh well, now that you cleared your previous post it seems much more legit (no sarcasm). Thanks

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 6:10 PM, HK-47 said:

So YouTube it it's ability to nag you with videos that are "Recommended for you", tossed these two videos my way. Normally I ignore them until either they go away on their own, or I tell them to go away. This time, however, I gave in and watched these. I'm glad I did.

This first one, discusses fanatics and false expectations (like snoke, rey, and luke). What's said about the ST, goes for the PT as well in regards to fanatics and false expectations. Things were fine until the fanatics cried out, and then it's been nothing but hate. They revere the OT as perfection. That's false. The IV and V were ground breaking. That's it. But the fanatics are willing to excuse the flaws of the OT due to their view of it, but refuse to do the same for the new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOG3Rze8UVU

So ask yourself the following: Am I a fanatic? Does any of this apply to me? If so, am I willing to change?

If you answered "no" to all three, you're part of the problem and lying to yourself. That's not harsh, that's the way it is. I can't tell you what to think or do any more than anyone else can. Only you can do that. But I can share with you truth so you can decide after reasoning on the facts. I can also remind you: It's unhealthy to be fanatical about something. A fanatic is unwilling to see any side but their own because, as mentioned, they're always right 100% of the time.

 

This other one is really cool, and brings out a point that many, usually in their fanatical hate, completely missed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOG3Rze8UVU

 

Liked them? PM me to tell me. 

Didn't like it or have a criticism? I don't want to hear it. Whatever your reasons, you missed the points and will say nothing I haven't already seen and considered.

I didn't think the movie was that horrible and terrible, but I understand where those who don't like it are coming from.  This video misses a lot of points, namely that others might have valid opinions. Only fanatics cannot accept this.

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Well, I heard about a media-article that apparently pictures us as terrorists for boycotting a movie.

So it can *always* get worse.

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5 hours ago, UnusualCharacters said:

It's *fanatical* to NOT like a movie. This is where we're at as a society. What a joke.

Not necessarily *us* as a society.  More like a select few who stop at nothing to get their own way. The fact that they have such a pull on the media though is a far more concerning thing to me. 

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I'm gonna return against my words and stir up the Gundark's nest and leave this here: 

(holy crap that image is massive)

It does a good job of explaining why the new movies are so difficult to accept, and why failure is a huge important aspect. It has been difficult for me to accept too. For me the new movies are more of a fan movie, rather than cannon. But it is cannon, so I accept it. The above video made me realize why I feel that way. The things I've said here include me too. 

 

On 6/7/2018 at 3:07 AM, Hassat Hunter said:

Nope. But it's rather hard to argue properly when you throw down HERE, YOU ARE FANATICS.

Don't counter, shut up, accept it. SUCK IT.

Yeeeeeah.... maybe posting that way kinda contradicts 100% your entire argument. But apparently it's pointless discussing this since you don't want to discuss it. Just tell us we're fanatics and then just suck it up or shut up.

HAH, no.

I did do it wrong. I did handle it wrong. I didn't say it was okay to do it that way. But I never said anyone in particular was a fanatic. I have seen it here far more, than other places. I left three questions, one of which should always be answered with a "yes". By definition, those that don't want to listen to or give the opinion of others a chance. I did say that the opinions expressed here are the same as I have seen elsewhere. I did try to discuss it too, albeit in the wrong place (status update area instead of this thread). When I did try to (regardless of where), those individuals became hostile, and started to degrade from reason to attacks. Hence the term "fanatic". Only a fanatic would do such a thing. So you tell me, would you be willing to try to discuss it with those that are hostile?

The point of the first video was to bring to the fore a major issue among those that hate the new movies, especially TLJ. That in combination with the one after it, as well as this one, bring out much better points that I have been trying to make. As I said, I left three questions, one of which should always be answered "yes". The idea was to bring out points that folks missed in hopes of them reasoning on them. You can dislike something, but it is because I care that I wanted to bring this to everyone's attention so that folks here don't become fanatics themselves, or if they are, they have the maturity to say "oh crap. this describes me. i should change."

On 6/7/2018 at 10:46 PM, Ebony Moon said:

I didn't think the movie was that horrible and terrible, but I understand where those who don't like it are coming from.  This video misses a lot of points, namely that others might have valid opinions. Only fanatics cannot accept this.

I don't follow. How does it miss the point that some have valid opinion? An opinion is not a fact, it's strictly one's idea. What it's saying is that there's a difference between having an opinion, and being fanatical about one's opinion. And keep in mind, one's opinion can be wrong because an opinion is not fact (flat earthers). What other points does it miss? It didn't cover everything, but it did cover the major aspects.

I've been rather reluctant to share my opinions as I've not had the chance to rewatch TLJ since the theater release. And I've been stupidly blunt about things.

None of those videos, nor do I say that TFA and TLJ are perfection, or anywhere as good as IV or V. In fact, the video about fanatics and false expectations states that explicitly. They're just movies. As someone that practically lives and breathes Star Wars, I can tell you that to get so outraged by this, is so silly.

I watched TLJ again the day before this post, and did so deliberately looking to find all negative points people have brought out. I had a check list. I ended up being bothered even less by what did bother me in the theater. Canto Bight bothered me still, but far less. It felt shorter too for some reason. I even hated the whole "the jedi need to die" thing. Even Yoda agreeing with that idea was very bothersome. But... it made more sense this time around.

The above video, which I happened across only an hour ago, does a better job of explaining it than I can. The first video also brought out one of the negatives about TLJ regarding Leia in space. It was odd, but as he said: "It felt weird probably because we never saw her do anything like that before." I was disappointed about Snoke, but unlike Palpatine, he is pretty much, at this point, unimportant. I have observed that many see TLJ like it's a stand alone movie. But as with the previous trilogies, the middle movie is designed to lead into the third. ESB is not a stand alone movie, AotC is not a stand alone movie. ANH is the only one that truly is a stand alone movie. It is literally designed to be on it's own, yet open if it could have been continued (and thankfully it was).

And the thing with Luke completely annoyed me, yet I could understand it. I heard Yoda say that failure is the greatest teacher. That's absolutely correct. I agreed, but I couldn't put it together for it to make sense. The second video I posted made it clear. Luke was overconfident and thought he'd never be afraid. He wasn't truly afraid when Vader revealed he was Luke's father. He was shocked more than afraid. He proved more willing to die than be taken by the Dark Side. That's not fear, that's determination. He wasn't afraid to face the Emperor and his Father either. It wasn't until he saw what Kylo was like and the darkness in him and thought about ending Kylo that he became truly afraid.

The thing with Rey's parents made it clear that a hero or Jedi can come from nowhere. This is a long standing theme in Star Wars, it was just brought to the fore. The Jedi Council didn't have their family history made known in the movies. The same with all Jedi in the old E.U.

Overconfidence is a recurring theme in all of the Saga. The Jedi were overconfident in themselves, which led to their downfall. Palpatine was overconfident in himself and his accomplishments, which led to his destruction by the hands of Vader. Anakin's overconfidence in himself and his learning Force leading to a way to keep people from dying led to his downfall. Luke was overconfident in the legend of Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, which led to his failure with Kylo. Poe's overconfidence in fighting at all times rather than retreating when necessary led to the loss of all their bombsers and a good portion of their fighters, which led to Holdo (spelling?) not trusting him (if he couldn't follow Leia's orders, why should she trust him to follow hers?). Those are just a few examples.

Something else that was brought to my attention, is that some things in the movies are a bit odd or out of context when the books aren't read.

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Did a youtube video ever change anyone's mind about a star wars movie?

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6 hours ago, zbyl2 said:

Did a youtube video ever change anyone's mind about a star wars movie?

Ha ha. Funnn-eee funneeee!

 

But really, it has. I shared some with my guild mates, and they shared some too with those that made several complaints, and then after watching, they saw things a bit differently. As did re-watching the movie. This last video did a far better job than the other two (though the second one I shared was more of a cool thing than a "this is why it was good" video).

Personally, I think it would have gone over better if it weren't such a sudden thing. But again, it's one of those things that is hard to determine without the third part. I could speculate that it all hangs on the next one, but if they keep going with them, that won't exactly be the case.

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Post is a bit long to read now, I'll do later when I can also watch said vid (If I haven't done already, so many vids).

Anyway, for the "hard to determine without the third part"; I once thought TLJ would redeem TFA because it would build on and explain it's plotpoints and fill in the gaps like "what the fuck was the New Republic and why are they a non-entity", "where did the FO come from" or "why the f are the resistance and republic seperate entities."

I will not make the same mistake again. Especially since TLJ doesn't HAVE any leadup to another movie in the first place, so there's little redemption possibility there. Last thing we need is another movie like Solo tainted with having to explain away dozens of things happening in TLJ... again.

(also you DO realise in your first post you linked to the same vid twice, not 2 seperate vids, right?)

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