Head Fixer was made by VarsityPuppet. I don't know where it's hosted anymore, so you'll have to ask him if he's around. Here's the original thread on LucasForums via Archive.org, but the download no longer works.
So - I don't want any sort of distinction at all. I don't want a feat for just that class. That class doesn't exist in this scenario. There's just the Jedi class. And yes, with a single class, Bastila, Juhani and Jolee would all be the same class. They would not, however, play the same. Because they would start with different abilities and different skills and different feats and different powers - simply because, they would be programmed to have started with different ones. Just like Canderous and Carth.
I don't think the different "talents" even need to separated very much, I don't think it needs to be made super clear what each type should go for. I don't even think "should" is the word. I think it's no more complicated than updating the descriptions to point out which Feats and Powers are best suited to a Jedi following the path of a Consular who focuses on studying the force and diplomacy, versus a Guardian who focuses on lightsaber prowess. The whole "Consular", "Guardian" "Sentinel" distinction becomes not very important, and statistically nonexistent. It's just a theme.
It's totally okay to mix and match them, it would just be a fun flavor thing in the description, no more significant than pointing out the Echani's part in making energy shields.
In that case, I'd say it's fine. I would still be worried about similarity in builds but it sounds workable to me. I've even cheated in the different Jedi feats before and I was even considering making it a proper mod, so I'd definitely like more choices in that regard.
True. A shaky justification would be the lack of species choice in the game for the player character. But I hear you.
I'll tell you this, when I first played KOTOR, on my old Xbox years ago (which I bought to play KOTOR on), the first thing I noticed when I went to create a character is that I had to be a Human. I was mystified. "They made a Star Wars RPG and I can't be a Wookiee?!"
Players want to be Wookiees, and Twi'leks and Mon Calamari and Rodians. I know because-of-the-plot blah blah blah and romance blah-blah-blah, (and more importantly) a lot of extra work blah blah, but it's what players want and if I was really going to make a wish list that defied reality, that would be on there. "Play as Wookiees, Droids and Twi'leks!" the box proclaimed. But they were talking about your companions.
Sometimes I get the itch to make a retro game where resources aren't so demanding, sprite-based graphics, and put out the KOTOR SAGA Edition I've always wanted, tactical combat, the works.
But I digress.
So, yeah, I think it's a good idea from a gameplay stand point, the ability differences. But it's not in line with the tabletop game. Pros and cons.
Mm, I understand, and I would like more variety as well. If I were doing it, though, I'd avoid changing stats, since there have been alien species mods and there could be more in the future.
The Sith assassins can't use the Force. They've had the same training Atton did to shield their minds from Jedi, and the technique also blinds them to the Force. They throw up walls of emotion that mess with a Jedi's senses because Jedi have to block that out to use the Force. Consequentially this makes it difficult for the assassins to use the Force themselves. They do use the Force in the sense that they use it to become invisible, sense their prey, weaken them, etc but they are not typical Force users. Essentially they specialize in negating the Force, and it would also negate their own Force.
I'm encouraged that a KOTOR Saga Edition sounds appealing to you. I have a long way to go before I have the skills to really pull that off.
I think you don't understand what I'm saying about the Jedi class idea.
I'm talking about 1 Jedi Class, not 3. The issue is not that the classes would play too similarly -- there would be only 1 class to play (as a Jedi). I don't mean sub-classes. You wouldn't choose one of three different feats. You could choose any feats you wanted. There would just be something in the description letting you know what kind of Jedi would take that Feat. It's just for flavor. There would be 1 Jedi class, and that Jedi class could take any Force Powers and any Feats available to the Jedi class.
So - i am just talking about descriptions, with regard to "differences" between Sentinel, Guardian and Consular. It's an in-story difference, the same difference between (say) a "Mercenary" and a "Trooper". Maybe Canderous is a mercenary, and Carth is a Republic trooper. They're both soldiers, there is statistically no difference. Or a Smuggler and a Gunslinger within the Scoundrel idea, and so on.
Yeah, I get that, but - if you want any sort of distinction at all (a name, a feat for just that class, etc) then they will have to be different classes, in terms of proramming. Even if you make them fundamentally the same. Then you've used up all the classes again.
And by playing the same I mean you have up to four Jedi in the party, and currently they all have different hit dice, saving throws, feats, amount of Force points and powers, etc. And the player has the option to vary all this. With a single class you'd be losing all of that.
Finally, the tabletop version has a nifty list of things in the talent trees that tells you what each type should go for, but we can't have that here. So I'd suggest some sort of administrative work on that just to make it clearer, because I don't think it would be very clear to someone who wasn't intimately familiar with them already.
I'm not sure if you can change the order of things - might be alphabetical or by row number and that would be too much of a pain to change - but different colored icons, in addition to the text of course, would help I think.
Going back to Feats. I did try it with all the Classes with the same Feat progression. At one point I had the classes with 1 extra Feat at first level (because they're Human), and getting a Feat pretty much every level. I ended up having no Feats just on the levels where you get Ability points. This felt really good, but if I kept going that way, I would probably run out of useful feats, like you said. In this version of my mod, the difference between classes came down to Skill Points, Hit Dice, Reflex Saves, and the feats you get automatically for your class.
Another thing I did was give each Class the same number of Class Skills (but different amounts of Points). So every non Jedi class gets only 1 non-class skill. For Scoundrels the only Class they don't get is Treat Injury. For Scouts it's Security. For Soldiers it's Stealth. And then Jedi only have 2 Class skills to make up for their access to Force Powers: Awareness and Persuade. But every class can use Persuade.
I'm definitely in favor of every class getting persuade. It's a huge waste as it currently is, given that only the player can use it and that's probably why they gave it to all Jedi, but it's also very useful early on in the game and to not have it is a shame.
Having 7 class skills seems like a bit much to me, but when I play the second game I end up with everything as a class skill, so I also wouldn't complain about that. One thing you should keep in mind is that - I believe - you retain all your class skills from non-Jedi levels when you multiclass to Jedi.
Maybe something to do would be to go in the other direction. Slow down everyone's Feat progression, but make it uniform. And then restrict more of the Feats to certain classes. This way what makes the class unique is still what they can do, and not how fast they learn different things.
Eh, I wouldn't recommend more restrictions. An alternative would be to increase the amount of feats each class gets automatically, so for example a scoundrel might get improved sniper shot and then later master sniper shot, but any class can still choose these. Skill focuses would be a good option here too.
You were talking about the suggestion of the unused inventory slots for class-based attributes. This is very encouraging. Because - I don't think I DO have to look for some party members using those slots. For the party members, you can just edit their starting attributes directly, and account for the increases/decreases in your calculations.
Assuming you only want to edit their starting attributes, yeah. If you wanted it to level up you'd have to do it via script, and then you'd run into that problem.
On that subject, I would definitely suggest editing their stats anyway because they are not consistent with the game's rules.
For example, check out these two talents, "Disruptive" and "Walk the Line" Talent from SAGA Edition
It's been a while since I've looked into this stuff, but unfortunately I don't believe we can make new combat feats. I hope I'm wrong and somebody corrects me, though. But as I recall we can only make spells that do anything, not feats (except to check if you have the feat, but that's not a doing).
I think this is what had me thinking about Attribute Bonuses tied to Classes, although this sounds like there's not an elegant way to do it. But it would make them distinct.
Sounds like it would work, although it feels a bit weird to me to have classes affect attributes, given that's usually a racial thing.