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Should Bao-Dur have also been in the droid factory? (minor endgame spoilers)


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#1 bnm73

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 08:17 PM

This is perhaps more of an an intellectual question rather than a request for mods or additional features, but I've always wondered whether the HK factory should have been a 2-man mission instead of just HK-47.  Not being well-versed i the historical work done by the TSLRCM team, this may have been answered/addressed in older versions of the mod.  If there is a "history of TSLRCM" somewhere, I have yet to find it.

 

While not stated explicitly, my guess is that he currently pilots the shuttle that takes HK to the factory.  This assumption is based on Atton's statement at the Citadel Station Redux section saying that HK and BD are missing.  There is also occasional discussion that BD was originally supposed to have gone to the droid factory (including http://starwars.wiki...hind_the_scenes:  "Chris Avellone states that Bao-Dur was intended to die during the Battle of Telos IV, while helping HK-47 reach and shut down the HK Manufacturing Plant.").

 

Certain aspects of the droid factory section of the TSLCRM endgame have never made much logical sense to me.  Given that Bao-Dur has always been absent from the endgame, I've always wondered (well, at least since my first play through of TSLRCM long ago) whether he was originally supposed to accompany HK-47 into the factory but not survive.  My reasoning is as follows:

 

1)  That would make use of Bao-Dur's ability to "punch through force fields," which otherwise is used only early in the game....in another part of the same base on Telos.  I always found it odd that this ability was not used anywhere else in the game, and it's certainly a logical place to make use of it again.    Even though there is a passing reference in the HK-50 dialogue that traps are intended to keep out biological beings, it's never seemed right to me that HK-47 could just walk through the force fields on the first level.  It would be more logical to me that Bao-Dur would have to deactivate the force fields in order to fully explore the first level.

 

2)  The workbench on the first level suddenly becomes useful.  HK doesn't get many points for skills, so his ability to construct mods for rifles, etc., is very limited.  Generally speaking, he can use it for little more than moving the mods from his current weapon to a new one.  If you use the 'recommended' skill upgrades as you level him up, you are unable to construct (moderate- or higher-level) ion-based mods, which would be most useful when all enemies are droids.  Bao-Dur, on the other hand, gets lots of skills points as he levels up.

 

3)  The poison vents on the second level would make sense if Bao-Dur were in the party at that point.  Droids are immune to poison, but Bao-Dur isn't.  Even with the passing reference about trying to keep meatbags out of the factory, poison vents that deep into it never struck me as being very logical.  Supposedly, organics would never have made it into the 2nd level since there were several things that needed to be done just to gain access of it.  It smacks of very un-droid-like inefficiency to me.

 

4)  The difficulty of the last fight on the first level for a 1-man party can be a bit much if you don't know what's coming and equip HK appropriately.  With only HK, I find that I have to use shields a lot, often re-equiping as they run out, in addition to significant numbers of repair/construction kits used in the "auto-pause" time.   Even then, it can be problematic with only one party member.

 

5)  Locked security lockers, etc.  Again, if you use the "recommended" skills points distributions for HK, that means no points in security.   Again, it's another place where Bao-Dur's abundance of skill points would seem to fit in.

 

Atton is a party member in the Citadel Station Redux section.  Handmaiden gets her moment to shine at the Telos Academy Redux.  Visas and Mandalore are on the ship.  Mira gets a bit on Malachor.  GoTo gets a cutscene at the end of the game.  Disciple gets a brief cutscene pre-Ravager, if I remember correctly.  Only Hanhar is otherwise neglected for the endgame to the best that I can recall.

 

I'm assuming that something like this may have been considered by the team that put together TSLRCM.  Does anyone know if would there have been technical problems with including Bao-Dur in the droid factory...at least to a point?  Was there any particular reason why Bao-Dur wasn't put into this section?


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#2 Domino5555

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 09:26 PM

What about the Disciple pre-Harbinger?



#3 bnm73

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 10:15 PM

I seem to recall that if he is in your party (female Exile, obviously), there is a brief bit of Disciple contacting the Republic Fleet from the Ebon Hawk, telling them to attack the Sith is about to attackTaris.  It happens directly after confronting the Jedi Masters at Dantooine.  I just opened a save game near that point and played for a few minutes to confirm.

 

You get back to the Ebon Hawk and chat with Atton.  Next is the part where you can discuss what you learned at the Enclave, if you wish.  Right after that is the short scene of Disciple checking in with the Admiral. There's nothing playable, just a brief cutscene.


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#4 Domino5555

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 10:48 PM

All of that came after the Harbinger, and the Sith were going to attack Telos. I think you confused the Harbinger with the Ravager.



#5 bnm73

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:51 PM

I can appreciate the attention to minutia (IMO) such as the name of one ship on which you spend a few minutes vs. the name of another ship on which you spend a few minutes, but it's straying little off the point of the topic. :)


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#6 Domino5555

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:21 AM

Yeah, I'm quirky like that.



#7 JCarter426

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:07 PM

"Bao-Dur . . . we just didn't have time to finish his thread, but if I recall (it's been a while), he was supposed to die on the attack on Telos to help HK-47 get to the HK-50 factory and shut it down to save the planet."

-Chris Avellone



#8 bnm73

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:36 PM

I greatly appreciate someone from the TSLRCM crew taking the time to respond.  I'm pleased that my hunch had at least some basis in reality.

 

Assuming, then, that the above quote is correct and that TSLRCM was strictly about restoring content, then I can only guess that there may have not been enough original resources left in the original game to justify including Bao-Dur (or anyone apart from HK) there.  Perhaps putting him in the endgame would be more about creating content instead of restoring content?

 

That might be a fine line to those of us who don't put together mods, but I can imagine that in practice it might be quite a difference in approach.


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#9 Sith Holocron

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:05 PM

Assuming, then, that the above quote is correct and that TSLRCM was strictly about restoring content, then I can only guess that there may have not been enough original resources left in the original game to justify including Bao-Dur (or anyone apart from HK) there.  Perhaps putting him in the endgame would be more about creating content instead of restoring content?

Just out of curiosity, have you gone through this thread?  Just wondering . . . . 


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#10 bnm73

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:58 PM

Just out of curiosity, have you gone through this thread?  Just wondering . . . . 

All hail the hypnotoad ... love the profile pic, btw.

 

If you're referring to the "wall of text from more than 7 years ago" that lists various bits -- both big and small -- that were put into the mod back then (for whatever version it was), I have skimmed through it, yes.  Unless there's something buried there, though, that I'm missing,  I'm not entirely sure of the relevance, but I acknowledge there may be something buried in one of the follow-up pages.

 

Like I said in my original post, I'm not asking for/about additional content to be added by the Restoration team.  Given how old the game is, I'd imagine that there is not much more that can be done with existing content.  I understand that there was only so much to work with and that the purpose of the project isn't to "make new stuff."  I remember my xbox playthroughs (still have both my disk and xbox...woo hop) and the various parts where you could tell that things had been abruptly dropped when the game was being finalized, and I obviously applaud the hard work that was done by everyone involved to try to make things make a bit more sense.

 

The way my brain works, I like to see how things fit together...or at least how they are/were supposed to.  Seeing poison and walk-through force fields in a supposedly droid-only area, for example, make me wonder 'what the heck is that about.'  Since there's not much -- if anything -- in the game by way of explanation (that I could find, anyway), I tried to figure out how it was supposed to look/work originally before the "rush to market" started cutting things out.


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#11 peedeeboy

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:05 PM

On my first playthrough of the HK factory, I wondered the exact same thing about the force-fields and the gas traps.  I wondered if Bao-Dur's infamous "Make my sacrifice matter" line (https://www.youtube....h?v=e2Tqk6x3TiU) might have something to do with shutting down the reactor... perhaps having to physically get locked in there and die from radiation?

 

However, on my second playthrough, I realised that the HK-51 droids all refer to HK-47 in the singular - implying he is there on his own:

 

"That is unit HK-47"

"Step away from the control room. That's a good droid"

 

etc. etc. etc.

 

So now I think that perhaps there was supposed to be a sequence before the HK factory in which Bao-Dur sacrifices his life - one on Telos surface perhaps?  And that none of it was ever developed?

 

Which would make Bao-Dur's journey full circle if he dies where the Exile first meets him (Telos surface)?

 

My other theory is that perhaps the HK factory was a lot less fleshed out than TSLRCM makes it seem!!!!



#12 Sith Holocron

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 01:33 AM

Emphasis added.
 

If you're referring to the "wall of text from more than 7 years ago" that lists various bits -- both big and small -- that were put into the mod back then (for whatever version it was), I have skimmed through it, yes.  Unless there's something buried there, though, that I'm missing,  I'm not entirely sure of the relevance, but I acknowledge there may be something buried in one of the follow-up pages.
 
The way my brain works, I like to see how things fit together...or at least how they are/were supposed to.  Seeing poison and walk-through force fields in a supposedly droid-only area, for example, make me wonder 'what the heck is that about.'  Since there's not much -- if anything -- in the game by way of explanation (that I could find, anyway), I tried to figure out how it was supposed to look/work originally before the "rush to market" started cutting things out.


Then literally read the first 5 entries and see what the makers of the mod actually said they restored and why they didn't restore the other things. The 5 entries that have been continually updated since 2010.  If you didn't skim through it, I guarantee you that there was something relevant in it.
 

So now I think that perhaps there was supposed to be a sequence before the HK factory in which Bao-Dur sacrifices his life - one on Telos surface perhaps?  And that none of it was ever developed?
 
Which would make Bao-Dur's journey full circle if he dies where the Exile first meets him (Telos surface)?


I wonder if anyone ever thought of that before? Nah, that idea coming up before - that would be silly.   :whistle:
 
It would be added content and not restored content, which isn't what the TSL Restored Content Mod was designed to do.


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#13 bnm73

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 03:25 AM

I can see that the attempt for an intellectual exercise and discussion is being interpreted as impudence and/or laziness.  I'll not make the same mistake again in the future.


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#14 DarthParametric

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:51 AM

Seeing poison and walk-through force fields in a supposedly droid-only area, for example, make me wonder 'what the heck is that about.'  Since there's not much -- if anything -- in the game by way of explanation (that I could find, anyway)


That is directly addressed in the game. The HK-50s comment that they constructed all their defences to guard against an attack by Jedi, and that they had completely overlooked the possibility of HK-47 turning up.

#15 bnm73

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:24 PM

I don't agree with your interpretation of that particular line of dialogue.   As noted above, my understanding of that line of dialogue -- in context with when/where it is spoken -- is that the defenses are based on the premise keeping all non-HK units (droid and organic) out.  Why would such things continue inside if the defenses are effective?

 

However, given the obvious consternation such discussion has caused people with titles like Admin, I'm content to let this thread die and continue any such discussions in private chat or email.


"When one dismisses the rest of all possible worlds,

one finds that this is the best of all possible worlds.

Quod erat demonstandum.

Q.E.D."

 

 


#16 Tyvokka

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:13 PM

I personally find your thread intriguing while perhaps SHs post was taken as harsh criticism, I think he was just offering feedback in his own way :)



#17 VarsityPuppet

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:17 PM

I can see that the attempt for an intellectual exercise and discussion is being interpreted as impudence and/or laziness.  I'll not make the same mistake again in the future.

 

 

I don't agree with your interpretation of that particular line of dialogue.   As noted above, my understanding of that line of dialogue -- in context with when/where it is spoken -- is that the defenses are based on the premise keeping all non-HK units (droid and organic) out.  Why would such things continue inside if the defenses are effective?

 

However, given the obvious consternation such discussion has caused people with titles like Admin, I'm content to let this thread die and continue any such discussions in private chat or email.

 

I offer apologies, and will appeal to Sith Holocron (as he knows me to do :D )

 

It's not that we aren't open to intellectual discussions (as you say) about the game, it's more that these points have been discussed already, seem pretty open and shut. I too am guilty of doing this same thing in the past, telling newcomers to shut it. We all make mistakes :(

 

As the main developer/contributor/restorer of the TSLRCM version of the HK Factory, I'm happy to engage in discussion as to what was done and why.

 

The poison gas mines were present in the original files (salvaged from the Xbox version of the game) and I left them in as part of it, since as Darth Parametric noted, the HK's remark that they had prepared the base for defense against organics. It speaks to their arrogance that they didn't even consider that an HK unit could have infiltrated their base.

 

That was my analysis of the lines, and it contributed to keeping that in.

 

 

As far as why Bao-Dur's ending was not implemented, it's partially due to there not being enough content to produce the original ending. Bao-Dur was supposed to help HK get to the Telos base, and die on the way, but due to a lack of VO, it's hard to make this ending a reality without seeming out of place (in my opinion at least).

 

There have been ideas on different ways to close out Bao-Dur's story in a meaningful way, a thread somewhere on the forum here. IMO figuring out how to give Bao-Dur a meaningful death with the available dialog is a better use of discussion, rather than trying to discern details of the HK factory.


Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts. - Proverbs 4:23


#18 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:31 AM

Even when many theorised against, I'm always of the opinion that Bao-Dur survives, NO MATTER WHAT. That's why he's gone. The "make my sacrifice matter" seems to refer to him losing his Remote on Malachor.

When escaping Malachor, Kreia makes it very clear the droids are on the Hawk. Bao-Dur's inability to be read hints at them not wanting to give them a final future like other members, leaving him for KOTOR3 along with T3 and HK-47. His inability to kill him in any way seems to reinforce that, whereas all other party members were intended to be killable on Malachor. This way even if going pure DS and killing all, there's one remaining Jedi to restart the Jedi Order after it's destruction.

1) It's also used on Onderon Revisit, although a lightsaber works fine at that point. Bit of an odd leftover. Then again it being used only on Telos isn't that much of a stretch when you notice his Shield Breaker is also pretty much useless outside of said planet. The only other shield-users are in Atton's solo-section. The force fields always disabled on use, rather than having the default forcefield line about Bao-Dur (which literally is the default force field door). It wouldn't make sense they actually had different doors in there if that wasn't intended.
2) It's primary use is repair kits, which use the repair skill, which HK has a high level of unless you really screw it up. These allow you to finish the factory no matter what.
3) As stated, those are anti-Jedi defenses. At one point Zbyl or Stoney did remove them, but it was (fortunately) decided to restore them since they absolute make sense in context.
4) That's why VP killed one off in the cutscene I think, not sure why we did that rather than lower their stats (the lower level droids are not quite as hard)... but I think those are Obsidian's default values. Still 30x easier than TSLRP 0_o
5) Or not use Recommended?

As for Bao's piece-de-la-resistance, how about that entire annoying Remote sequence? Why doesn't it count?

#19 Spectrometer

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 06:23 PM

 5)  Locked security lockers, etc.  Again, if you use the "recommended" skills points distributions for HK, that means no points in security.   Again, it's another place where Bao-Dur's abundance of skill points would seem to fit in.

 

I just noticed, this could easily be resolved if you just mine the lockers, as HK has the demolitions skill. This is the way I always do it. 



#20 Haveayap

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:58 PM

Even when many theorised against, I'm always of the opinion that Bao-Dur survives, NO MATTER WHAT. That's why he's gone. The "make my sacrifice matter" seems to refer to him losing his Remote on Malachor.

When escaping Malachor, Kreia makes it very clear the droids are on the Hawk. Bao-Dur's inability to be read hints at them not wanting to give them a final future like other members, leaving him for KOTOR3 along with T3 and HK-47. His inability to kill him in any way seems to reinforce that, whereas all other party members were intended to be killable on Malachor. This way even if going pure DS and killing all, there's one remaining Jedi to restart the Jedi Order after it's destruction.

1) It's also used on Onderon Revisit, although a lightsaber works fine at that point. Bit of an odd leftover. Then again it being used only on Telos isn't that much of a stretch when you notice his Shield Breaker is also pretty much useless outside of said planet. The only other shield-users are in Atton's solo-section. The force fields always disabled on use, rather than having the default forcefield line about Bao-Dur (which literally is the default force field door). It wouldn't make sense they actually had different doors in there if that wasn't intended.
2) It's primary use is repair kits, which use the repair skill, which HK has a high level of unless you really screw it up. These allow you to finish the factory no matter what.
3) As stated, those are anti-Jedi defenses. At one point Zbyl or Stoney did remove them, but it was (fortunately) decided to restore them since they absolute make sense in context.
4) That's why VP killed one off in the cutscene I think, not sure why we did that rather than lower their stats (the lower level droids are not quite as hard)... but I think those are Obsidian's default values. Still 30x easier than TSLRP 0_o
5) Or not use Recommended?

As for Bao's piece-de-la-resistance, how about that entire annoying Remote sequence? Why doesn't it count?


Id like to point out that bastila is still alive so she could just as easily be the 'one jedi' to restart the order

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