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The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION


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#121 sELFiNDUCEDcOMA

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 06:44 AM

The argument that TLJ is art and therefore its all subjective and therefore matters little if we like the film or not, in my opinion, is a nice superficial argument to dismiss how bad the film is and why we "haters" of the film and our opinions of it are unimportant. Sure, 1 person's opinion is subjective and (largely) is inconsequential. But a lot of people's "subjective" opinions matters a great deal.

 

I think Disney are worried about how bad the user (not critic) scores of the film are. They bought this IP for a lot of money, not so as to simply break even or generate a short-term profit from it -- where it stands at the moment, to be honest, I have no idea. It was part of a long-term sustained revenue for them generating 100x (if not way more) on what they paid for it. Publicly they aren't worried, internally I am certain they are looking at this seriously as to how viable the SW licence is now to them and what they can do about it going forward -- like hiring a new writer/director team to entrust the future of SW with. 

 

I'd like to also share another "subjective" observation with you. When I saw TLJ at the cinema, it was the first time in a long time that I saw people start getting up and leaving half-way through a film. They never returned. Mind you, this is a Star Wars film. On the film (finally) ending, only 1 person -- a young man -- was clapping and cheering like you normally expect at the end of a Star Wars film. He abruptly quit when he released he was alone, and not even his companions were clapping with him. Most, were sitting there in silence.

 

Sure, the film made money, but that was due to many people being mislead about how good the film was. How many went back for multiple viewings as SW fans tend to do? How many are going to bother to see the next SW film at the cinema, instead of waiting to see it later digitally and potentially for free? How many are going to buy the merchandise for a film they do not like? How many are going to want to buy media based on the expanded universe of TLJ or future SW films?

 

I think that these are all questions Disney would be asking.



#122 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 10:09 AM

Do you really want me to spell out 5 hours of arguments here?
Not to mention argumenting a lot already the other pages?

(And that other topic just exploded, don't got time to read all that now :/)

#123 revan21

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:04 AM

As someone who has most of the Disney released content, there are a lot of contradictions between themes and ideas that have been created in the Disney verse and the last Jedi. One example is that Poe Damions parents were rebel pilots which is why he's loyal to the resistance/rebellion, yet RJ completely disregards this when he makes Amilyn (who is portrayed quite differently to the other content she has appeared in) believe that Poe is a traitor even though she would have known his parents... like WOW...

well, we can't be really sure that Holdo met Poe's parents unless I missed something when searching for that. I think her suspicion is justified given the circumstances. Poe, in a way, is a traitor since he started a mutiny against her. But I also noticed how Holdo wasn't the oddbal was described to be in the Leia book. Maybe she canged as she got older? These things are the result of the movie being written so early into the Canon's lifespan. I doubt Disney cares much about those inconsistencies tho, since like 80% of the audience doesn't read the EU stuff. 

 

I'd like to also share another "subjective" observation with you. When I saw TLJ at the cinema, it was the first time in a long time that I saw people start getting up and leaving half-way through a film. They never returned. Mind you, this is a Star Wars film. On the film (finally) ending, only 1 person -- a young man -- was clapping and cheering like you normally expect at the end of a Star Wars film. He abruptly quit when he released he was alone, and not even his companions were clapping with him. Most, were sitting there in silence.

My experience was completely different. The whole cinema, kids and adults, enjoyed the movie to the point that it almost got obnoxious. 


I miss the old Revan,

The amnesia Revan, switching them sides Revan

I hate the new Revan, the Legends Revan

SWTOR Revan, beefin with everyone Revan

I miss the cool Revan, "Heart of the Force" Revan

See I invented Revan, It wasn't any Revans

And now I look and look around and see Darth Maul is Revan

I used to love Revan, I used to love Revan

I even had that Red Mask, I thought I was Revan

What if Revan turned out to be Revan

And he relises he was Revan ? Man, that'd be so Revan

That's all it was Revan, we still love Revan

And I love you like Revan loves Revan

 

 


#124 Sith Holocron

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:20 PM

Do you really want me to spell out 5 hours of arguments here?


Yes, as long as they are your own words. That's why I wrote what I wrote - and I didn't need to lean on someone else's video to do it either.

As subtle as a brick through a window.

 

"Deadlines are for those that don't care about quality in mods." Or words to that effect. ~ Sith Holocron Have you read my blog? You really should.

DarthParametric, on 25 Dec 2017 - 7:29 PM, said:
Please don't quote entire walls of text for no reason. It's really obnoxious. It just makes the thread difficult to navigate.


#125 DarthVarkor

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 02:19 PM

The argument that TLJ is art and therefore its all subjective and therefore matters little if we like the film or not, in my opinion, is a nice superficial argument to dismiss how bad the film is and why we "haters" of the film and our opinions of it are unimportant. Sure, 1 person's opinion is subjective and (largely) is inconsequential. But a lot of people's "subjective" opinions matters a great deal.

 

I'd have to disagree with you here. Just because a large group of people dislike/like something, doesn't lend it anymore merit than those who view otherwise. No one is (or should be saying) that your opinion matters less because you disagree. Sure, the more people that agree with you lends more credence to your belief that something is good or bad, but it doesn't make it fact. The same goes for those defending TLJ and saying "look at the Rotten Tomatoes score, look how many people agree with me". Although, I do agree that just stating a film is "art" as a counter argument to those who dislike it is also wrong to do. 

 

Also, it's worth noting that I am by no means a massive fan of TLJ. I personally believe that the good in it outweighs the bad, but I still have a LOT of problems with it.

 

(I'm assuming this is in response to my earlier post about all film being subjective. Apologies if I've misread this.)


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#126 sELFiNDUCEDcOMA

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:52 AM

 

(I'm assuming this is in response to my earlier post about all film being subjective. Apologies if I've misread this.)

 

No there have been a number of posts by different people that have mentioned it.



#127 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

Well, I got a long post on page 1 for that.

Comedy allowed? HISHE made their vid, it's fun;


#128 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:17 PM

Wow thanks for not even watching it. I guess 1Leonard way right then.

I did watch it. Unless he made another vid since the one I saw

Contrary to popular belief, I don't have time to be on DeadlyStream 24/7

No one claimed you were. You said you had counter-vids to our vids. I was interested. You spend about 6 posts going around the subject of me simply asking "do you have any to show?"
I'll try watching the 3 vids pointed out in this thread this evening. Although I already seen I Hate Everything's before, I'll give it another listen.

I will reply just this once, even though I repeatedlly stated that I'm tired of this nonproductive discussion.

What discussion? I simply asked if you had vids and you wriggled around that for some time. The "discussion" would long be over if you just said "no" or "here you go" instantly.

Also let's just forget that the starter post of this new thread was taken out of context from another one and just put up here without me knowing about it, forcing me to reply.

This was the lesser evil amongst "lock that topic *again* for going off-topic or this. As stated, if you simply answered right away rather than discussion more stuff we wouldn't even have needed a seperate topic in the first place.

Also: I don't think TLJ is great, I merely think that it's not the worst movie ever made.

Neither do I. Just the worst Star Wars movie. Though I never saw Holiday Special, just going off all 8 + Rogue One.

I have put a youtube video with actual points at the end of this post, you can just scroll down to that if you don't want to read it, I don't care.

Thanks.

#129 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:17 PM

However, I'd like to look at what's already happening here in this thread. In the couple of posts between this one and my previous one the discussion has ALREADY devolved into one where nothing of value is posted by some

Spoiler

I believe that's due to;

The whole The Last jedi discussion just showed how disjointed and toxic the whole Star Wars community is. On one side, I think it's great how the movie got people talking and discussing it, but the way many did it was just embarassing. I also don't get why so many people focus on petty details and blow them up to huge proportions when the OT had many moments that made even less sense. I'm honestly glad that it made certain "fans" so mad that they quit watching new Star Wars movies because it means that we have to suffer through less bullshit when trying to talk about future installments.

You can't dismiss that is pretty much an attack on people disliking the movie, right? Portraying all our dislikes as "petty details".

Besides that we have a completely unfounded claim (which is either a complete overexaggeration or a complete lie) that says that everyone who doesn't HATE TLJ is saying that people who do are racists/sexists/homophobes. Literally no one of importance has a video saying that. Else point me to someone who does because:

I could easily quote you to many a media-post saying that. And stuff like "we don't know how to watch movies". Also you shouldn't look too far in most discussion forums to see people saying stuff like "Well, I'm glad alt-right no longer likes Star Wars now... too bad boohoo."
Pretty much akin to how if you crtique Black Panther now for "not enough action" that's apparently racist. I mean, come on. Seriously a bad devolvement if politics are that woven into movies that are supposed to be entertaining escapism.

This is all just a complete lie. First of I've just watched the linked video of IHE on 1.5x speed and he starts the video showing enough merchandise of Star Wars that I'd call him a fan. He is not critical of the fans of Star Wars, he is critical of their arguments and the hate bandwagon that took off the second TLJ was released in theaters. And being critical was of Star Wars fans was NOT the point you were making. The point you were making was that people "defending" TLJ made:

So having SW-toys means you need to love all Star Wars products now or something? Enough fans with ton of toys hate all over TLJ. Cause it really really tried it's best to troll the Star Wars fanbase. Sorry if you missed that. And my point was that people 'defending' the movie don't do that by actually pointing out what's good in the movie, they do it by personally attacking those that don't like the movie. IHE is a complete match for that as far as I could tell when I watched that vid.

Lastly, can I just say that I hate how you try to frame videos as being "pro" or "anti" TLJ? Please stop that, people can think it's an okay movie without loving it, people can think it's a bad without thinking it's the worst thing ever.

You literally just described pro and anti. It's not like one is killing puppies and children and the other is spending 24/7 helping old ladies cross the street.

Life doesn't have just one variable.

I agree. But funnily you see pro- and anti- as love and hate, failing to see the inbetween in your previous paragraph.

#130 Sith Holocron

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:30 PM

Merged the two TLJ threads as I just want one thread I can ignore in the future.  ;)


As subtle as a brick through a window.

 

"Deadlines are for those that don't care about quality in mods." Or words to that effect. ~ Sith Holocron Have you read my blog? You really should.

DarthParametric, on 25 Dec 2017 - 7:29 PM, said:
Please don't quote entire walls of text for no reason. It's really obnoxious. It just makes the thread difficult to navigate.


#131 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:41 PM

You're an admin, you can't ignore anything.

I wont reply to the full post by peedeeboy; I just want to point out for now that no, Rey did not "leave to save her friends". She had no clue about her friends at all, and seemingly didn't give a hoot. It was all to sway Ben Swolo, cause he was shirtless. Not quite as noble as Luke going for his friends, is it?
But I probably can go on a full-on rant how hollow MaRey Sue is, and terrible as a character. I much rather have Kylo as main character. He atleast has some depth to him, and actually goes through the heroes journey of struggles etc.

EDIT:
And if you re-read TFA's topic I was just meh on it, giving it a 6/10 (not terrible). And liked RO. TLJ of course retro-actively made TFA worse, but RO remains. So this apperent anti-Disney bias... yeah, you're seeing things that aren't there. If there's any hate for them now, it's literally due to their own actions by now.

#132 revan21

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:44 PM

You can't dismiss that is pretty much an attack on people disliking the movie, right? Portraying all our dislikes as "petty details".

Thats not at all what I said ? I already made it clear what I ment by that in another post.

I also didn't say that all complains about the movie are "petty details". I said that I don't understand why people act like small unexpalined details would ruin the entire (fragile) logic of Star Wars. 


I miss the old Revan,

The amnesia Revan, switching them sides Revan

I hate the new Revan, the Legends Revan

SWTOR Revan, beefin with everyone Revan

I miss the cool Revan, "Heart of the Force" Revan

See I invented Revan, It wasn't any Revans

And now I look and look around and see Darth Maul is Revan

I used to love Revan, I used to love Revan

I even had that Red Mask, I thought I was Revan

What if Revan turned out to be Revan

And he relises he was Revan ? Man, that'd be so Revan

That's all it was Revan, we still love Revan

And I love you like Revan loves Revan

 

 


#133 1Leonard

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:44 PM

I agree. But funnily you see pro- and anti- as love and hate, failing to see the inbetween in your previous paragraph.

... what?

 

You are the one framing videos which aren't 100% positive or negative concerning TLJ as "pro" or "anti", not me.

"pro" and "anti" are innherently contrarian. 

 

You literally just described pro and anti. It's not like one is killing puppies and children and the other is spending 24/7 helping old ladies cross the street.

Let me try to explain this as if you are five years old:

Suppose we have two children, Thomas and Sally.
Thomas and Sally are discussing their love of candy and, specifically, lollipops.
Thomas says: "I love lollipops, I eat one three times a week!"
Sally says: "I don't really like lollipops, I eat one every month."

After this exchange someone asks you to describe this situation.
You describe it as such:

"Thomas is pro-lollipop and Sally is anti-lollipop."

Would someone who hears this description think Sally ever eats a lollipop? Or even likes lollipops?
Would someone who hears this description think Thomas ever stops eating lollipops?

You see how you're dividing this discussion binarily? 

It's not like Sally never eats a lollipop and Thomas is spending 24/7 eating lollipops. But that is what your implying by describing videos as "pro" or "anti"

 

You're an admin, you can't ignore anything.

People don't owe you their free time, dude.



#134 Sithspecter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 03:57 PM

You're an admin, you can't ignore anything.

 

Pssshhh...I'm an admin and I ignore stuff all the time.



#135 VarsityPuppet

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 04:21 PM

... what?

 

You are the one framing videos which aren't 100% positive or negative concerning TLJ as "pro" or "anti", not me.

"pro" and "anti" are innherently contrarian. 

 

Let me try to explain this as if you are five years old:

Suppose we have two children, Thomas and Sally.
Thomas and Sally are discussing their love of candy and, specifically, lollipops.
Thomas says: "I love lollipops, I eat one three times a week!"
Sally says: "I don't really like lollipops, I eat one every month."

After this exchange someone asks you to describe this situation.
You describe it as such:

"Thomas is pro-lollipop and Sally is anti-lollipop."

Would someone who hears this description think Sally ever eats a lollipop? Or even likes lollipops?
Would someone who hears this description think Thomas ever stops eating lollipops?

You see how you're dividing this discussion binarily? 

It's not like Sally never eats a lollipop and Thomas is spending 24/7 eating lollipops. But that is what your implying by describing videos as "pro" or "anti"

 

People don't owe you their free time, dude.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the implication you're making here is that Hassat Hunter can only understand things if they're explained in a very simplistic way (i.e. as if he were 5 years old), and that he is entitled (i.e. People don't owe you their free time)

If you ask me, sounds like that's bordering on toxic, which is not to say that you're the only contributor to that. I admit I could be fully wrong, but wanted to point it out so you have the chance to explain more clearly, lest things go south again.

 

 

EDIT:

I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BE FRIENDS :'(


Be careful how you think; your life is shaped by your thoughts. - Proverbs 4:23


#136 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 06:03 PM

I don't own this site either.
And all I'm saying, it's not that binary. Pro- and anti- have plenty of ranges.

Love is pro. Like is pro.
Meh is anti, Hate is anti.

But somehow you make it seem pro == love and anti == hate.

You can't be neutral in a subjective manner like this. Also why services like Steam and YouTube only have an upvote and downvote button (though I would love a "avarage" on Steam).

#137 peedeeboy

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:00 PM

I wont reply to the full post by peedeeboy; I just want to point out for now that no, Rey did not "leave to save her friends". She had no clue about her friends at all, and seemingly didn't give a hoot. It was all to sway Ben Swolo, cause he was shirtless. Not quite as noble as Luke going for his friends, is it?
But I probably can go on a full-on rant how hollow MaRey Sue is, and terrible as a character. I much rather have Kylo as main character. He atleast has some depth to him, and actually goes through the heroes journey of struggles etc.
 

 

Fair point and thanks for correcting my mistake  :ice:   I did say that Rey's sometimes inexplicable character motivations were one of the things I thought really bad in the film.

I guess the point I was trying to make (clearly very badly), is that I can see why critics loved TLJ (its a bit "arty" for a SW film) and a lot of people hated it (half naked Adam Driver with his trousers bizarrely pulled up round his chest being just one reason out of many... I mean really, does he go outside like that?).  

 

And that it is very easy to find both good and bad in the film, and discuss it objectively, without anybody criticising anybody else personally.  Play the ball, not the man as they say.

I don't for a minute believe so many people disliked TLJ out of some kind of prejudice.  For starters, maybe I'm naive and have too much faith in humanity, but I don't believe there are as many prejudiced people in the world as disliked the TLJ.  From my experience the numbers don't tally at all.



#138 Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 08:46 PM

When I inevitably watch this on Netflix or whatever streaming service it is on, I will be under the influence of spice and Ruby Bliel. If I can tolerate it as satire bordering on surreal, I may finish it.

In arguments with my wife about the movie (she has enjoyed TFA and TLJ, though R1 was a bore, I hated TFA and was also bored by R1), I see the divide.

The movie is divisive, on purpose. Thanks Disney. The Princesses now rule the galaxy. She likes it because it looks cool and Rey is teh awesomez, and because she is 5 years younger than me and not nearly as "serious" a fan (never read any of the novelizations, the EU books, and Dark Horse comics, no video games). Women are powerful, and that is cool, and attracts a new fandom of women, at the expense of lore.

Disney Wars hurts my feelings, bro. That's why I have passionate feelings about them, which I think I have veiled well enough for this family friendly forum. However, getting in arguments about it anymore just isn't worth it - I end up wishing for Global Thermonuclear War.

#139 LucyTheAlien

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:01 AM

This film was depressingly bad, so much so that I watched a few of the class stories for SWTOR.
Too bad Bioware's best work since ME2 is attached to that trainwreck.
In the future I hope someone can mod the class stories and worlds into KOTOR 2, but ignore the Revan/Exile stuff.
Also this would shake SWTOR's horrid artstyle and engine, which keeps me away from the game- even if it was emulatable without microtransactions.
One will make the choice- all will make the journey.

#140 1Leonard

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:18 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it sounds like the implication you're making here is that Hassat Hunter can only understand things if they're explained in a very simplistic way (i.e. as if he were 5 years old), and that he is entitled (i.e. People don't owe you their free time)

If you ask me, sounds like that's bordering on toxic, which is not to say that you're the only contributor to that. I admit I could be fully wrong, but wanted to point it out so you have the chance to explain more clearly, lest things go south again.

 

 

EDIT:

I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO BE FRIENDS :'(

You're wrong fully here. ELI5 is simply a way to explain things without complicated terms and/or contexts. Nothing more.

 

 

And all I'm saying, it's not that binary. Pro- and anti- have plenty of ranges.
 

I guess I just don't understand why you feel the need to label things as pro or anti.

 

Let me try to make things even easier than my earlier explanation because I think you just don't understand the point I'm trying to make.

 

Love is pro. Like is pro.
Meh is anti, Hate is anti.
 

According to you, Love = A. Like = A
Meh = B, Hate = B

 

Using your system, how is someone supposed to separate the Love-A from the Like-A?

How is someone supposed to separate the Meh-B from the Hate-B?

Why do you want less labels instead of more?

 

Also: I am now rewatching all the earlier Star Wars movies, in the light of those I think all new Star Wars films are meh. But I'm still not Anti.

I think episode II is meh, I'm still not Anti-Episode II

 

You can't be neutral in a subjective manner like this.

Says who? 

 

 

 

Also why services like Steam and YouTube only have an upvote and downvote button (though I would love a "avarage" on Steam).

We are not on Steam or Youtube, are we? Why do you want opinions to include only an upvote or a downvote?

Besides, I wouldn't take Steam and Youtube to represent all places of opinions. Most places for reviews, newspapers, blogs, radio etc. Utilize either a numerical grade, a star system or a multiple thumbs up/down system. 

Why do you think that is?

Do you think a reviewer utilizing only a "pro-certain movie" or "anti-certain movie" would in any way shape or form be succesful in conveying his opinion?

This is getting wholly offtopic, but I'd really like you to understand this, because I don't appreciate the way you've been framing this whole discussion.
 






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