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The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION


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#41 DarthYcey

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:04 PM

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#42 VarsityPuppet

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:04 PM

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EDIT: I had a well-reasoned discussion that I had planned out, but then I realized meme-ing would be more fun and less time-consuming.


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#43 Kreia

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:44 PM

@DarthYcey Excuses for lazy writing. Writers of other cinematic universes also have to concern themselves with consistency, there's nothing uniquely difficult about writing SW.

KOTOR1 is a rehash of the Star Wars story.

Easy, there are parallels you can draw, but I would argue that in most cases things are different enough to make the comparison far-fetched. Tomayto tomahto you might say, but string instruments also all look the same to some people, they're not the same to a musician though. The Star Forge is not a Death Star in that sense, they're space stations but that's all they have in common. Malak is not Vader, they have prosthetics that alter their voices, but that's all they have in common.

KOTOR2 is a total deviation from it. Basically they mirror TFA and TLJ entirely.

Reaching.

#44 darthbdaman

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 11:46 PM

Reaching.

 

I think it's a pretty spot in analogy. KotOR is a big collection of Star Wars tropes assembled into video game format. The Revan twist is a great example of this. It is so good because it wouldn't be nearly as effective in a movie. It really benefits from the way video games, specifically RPGs, are setup, and actually ends up saying something about how hollow your normal Bioware RPG protagonist is. The Vader reveal wouldn't work in the same way in a game as it does on film. KotOR is the video game version of Star Wars.

 

KotOR 2 does exactly what TLJ does, and totally overwrites everything that happened in the first one. Your choices? Really didn't matter. Revan just came back and overwrote your players memory, and is their own character now. Their might be a couple of differences, but the end result is the same. The major difference is that KotOR 2 actually reinvents what happened in the previous installment in a more interesting way. I actually care about what KotOR 2 has to say. It isn't trying to be edgy and deceptive for shock value and cheap political points. It actually has something new and unique to say, that isn't a super disneyfied moral. It casts KotOR in a new light, but that just makes it more interesting. TLJ on the other hand makes TFA way less interesting, and doesn't add anything new to it. It honestly just makes it worse, when you know that the questions that are brought up don't have interesting answers.


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#45 Kreia

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 01:11 AM

KotOR is a big collection of Star Wars tropes

You say that that's what you see in it and I believe you, but to me this feels like you're looking at things way out of focus, you're blurring different things together to the point two guys look the same because they both have a head and two legs.

KotOR 2 does exactly what TLJ does, and totally overwrites everything that happened in the first one. Your choices? Really didn't matter. Revan just came back and overwrote your players memory

Oh please don't :lol: I can't bare to hear Kotor2 and TLJ in the same sentence. Let me just point out that you never meet Revan in Kotor2, so whatever you're told about him are other people's accounts and opinions, not Revan's. And TLJ doesn't do that at all, you got Luke, he's there, he's just written badly.

#46 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:14 PM

Got time for a proper reading and response this time;
 

I've read comments about R1 being a better movie, which is debatable. R1 and TLJ are two very different movies, with R1 having the advantage of you already knowing what's going to happen.

Your point being? The end being known matters little, it's the content in the movie, the writing, that matters. You wont know that coming in the movie either way. It's as Kreia says "It's not the destination that matters, it's the journey."
And both are expected to be interesting for the around 2 hours the movie lasts. R1 succeeds (I'm going to buy that movie), TLJ fails (and with that my plans to buy the trilogy box. What's the point? TFA was mediocre, TLJ is awful. You seriously think IX will redeem both?

At least with TLJ you have some characters with personality...

You mean... Finn? Resetting his TFA progress and redoing it while being 100% reduandant?
Shell Rey? Character-murder Luke? Poe maaaaybe. Kylo isn't that bad but he's still whiny and non-threatening. They ruined Hux. Couldn't care less for Rose, Phasma, Leia, Purple-hair woman.
Did I miss anyone?

the R1 cast was forgettable (even the lead)

*cough* Rey *cough*

impossible to connect with them or even care about their deaths.

You know which movie had that? TLJ. People died, ICONIC people even. And I couldn't have cared less at that point.
The ONLY death that could have meant something was Finn, but nooooooooooo, they HAD to ruin that.

...there's this crazy talk about the prequels being better than TLJ. Sure, you're entitled to your own opinions, but come on guys....prequels better than TLJ?!

Definitely. Saw II and III in the cinema and walked out just fine, not soul-crushed "what the fuck did I just watch"
That by itself is already a clear signal they're better, even as popcorn entertainment where you only think about issues later.

Those of you that liked the prequels better must have only liked the Canto Bight scenes in the movie then, which were some of the worst in the film.

Oh yes, I looooooooved those. You can clearly see that from the earlier posts. Gotta love all the pre-conceptions one gets thrown about if you hate this movie. "You're a bot", "It's because of your fan theories", "You just can't see the good points Rian makes" (*pukes*).

Don't tell me the humor is too slapstick or inappropriate in TLJ, but that you also enjoyed the prequels, which were beyond silly at times.

Remind me again, where in the prequels are the "your momma" jokes again? Also if people hated Jar Jar, what suddenly turned Disney "hey, LET'S DO THAT AGAIN". Apparently better palatable for some people if given by every single character in the movie rather than just the comedic sidekick.



#47 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:15 PM

And yes, there seemed to be some universally despised moments in the film, but no way was there enough of these moments to pull down the overall movie.

"Midi-chlorians"
Oh wait, TLJ... I would disagree. "Super-Leia" and "Rose Kiss" where 2 ultra-cringy moments that alone turn you off of this movie. Not forgetting the half-hour of Las Vegas.

instead of just enjoying the film.

I tried that. The movie made it impossible. You don't think we didn't enjoy it on our own accord, did you? Or are we going into "You just watched it with a pre-determination to bash it" conspiracy in here?

I went to the VERY FIRST showing in this country in the nearest cinema. Obviously I would go in at the very first moment if I didn't hope to see a good movie, right?

The other problem is that it seems too many of you are making your minds up about the trilogy after seeing only two movies.

One mediocre and one outright bad movie, the bad movie leaving ZERO plots left for IX. Yeah, I think I can put in my 2 dollars already, there's no way IX is able to salvage this trainwreck. Not when the only thing "left" is Darth Emo the whiny vs. Mary Sue Rey the Undefeatable. What could POSSIBLY happen? Oh, the suspense is killing me.

Maybe some of the choices you didn't like in TLJ will make more sense once you see Ep 9.

As much as I would like IX retconning VIII entirely, it would just turn that into another bad movie. There's lose/lose all around. No, seriously. "Snoke is back" or "Hey, Rey isn't Mary Sue after all" at this point would just be even worse than just moving on.

It's too early IMO to judge this movie without having the full trilogy available for context.

I gave VII a pass for "they can lift this up in VIII". Do I need to give the same leeway twice? While the first time around it already got so much worse? No, I don't think so.

I predict TLJ will bring the doubting fans around after Ep 9, much like ROTJ did after ESB.

Wasn't alive for the release times, but ESB had plenty of setup for ROTJ. TLJ pretty much feels like a concluded movie. ZERO leadup to the next movie. No adversery (Vader and Emperor where bad, Kylo is a total loser).

Doubters definitely need to see this whole trilogy play out before they classify TLJ as a bad movie.

No, no, we don't. A good third movie wont retro-actively make this watchable. A good director's cut cutting out all jokes, killing Leia on the ship and removing Finn and Rose entirely would be the only way to go for that.

It's clear RJ and Disney wanted to subvert expectations so much that I wouldn't be surprised if there were more misdirects made than we realized, which would lead to more unexpected moments in Ep 9.

So basically, it was all a big lie. As I said before though, backpedalling now just makes it worse. So I hope you're wrong. The ONLY salvagable thing is "TLJ was all a dream" and IX just follows VII and does it right.

I, for one, am excited about Ep 9 because I have no idea what's going to happen or what the movie is even going to be about. [...] with Ep 9, you know very little so anything could happen.

That's not a good thing. That is not a good thing AT ALL.

and as a true SW fan, I'll be seeing Ep 9 opening night in theaters. Feel free to wait until it comes out on Netflix....less grumbling and sighing around me then as I'm trying to enjoy the movie. :D

And as a true SW fan, I'll give it a wide berth. And if people not wanting to see your movie and not seeing your movie and then artifically inflating it's score makes a "good film" then I don't know what to say to you expect have fun with your very narrow-minded view.

#48 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:15 PM

Reaching.

If you think so.

KOTOR1 is the total "safe" Star Wars game leaning extremely close to the formula to not alienate fans, even if it was set 4000 years prior.
KOTOR2 however, is far from that.

How exactly does that not mirror TFA and TLJ?
 
(And I *still* want KOTOR3. No interest at all in IX. That's the power of leadup vs. "anything can happen since there's absolutely no setup")

Oh please don't :lol: I can't bare to hear Kotor2 and TLJ in the same sentence.

Have your vomit bag ready;
http://steamcommunit...724915777161337

#49 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 03:14 PM

Oh, watching YouTube vids here's a GREAT point;

Why did Finn and Rose save the animals, but leave the slave-kids behind?
Some heroes.

EDIT:
Also another great decomposition;


Edited by Sith Holocron, 25 December 2017 - 05:58 PM.


#50 Eauxps I. Fourgott

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 07:02 PM

Just got back from seeing it. My initial response: I'm not sure what to think.

 

A couple minutes later: What's the point?

 

A few more minutes later: Bah there is no point this whole thing is just a cash grab. I reject Disney's canon and substitute my own.

 

About an hour later, sitting and typing about it:

 

The movie itself was fine. I enjoyed it while I was watching it. 100% worth seeing once.

 

But now that it's done, I have no need for any more new Star Wars stuff. Not the sequels again, not anything else that might come out.

 

My biggest pet peeve with this whole series is that they called it a sequel. In my view, a good sequel doesn't take the crossover characters and kill them all off, while leaving the impression that the events of the original didn't matter. I would probably be much more satisfied with this if they had left out all the stuff from the OT and called it a totally new thing. Then again I probably wouldn't have come to watch it either. IDK, basically I still agree with my earlier assessment that the whole trilogy is pointless.

 

My interest in continuing on with this trilogy died with Luke. I don't think I'll be watching the third installment; the end of this film left me feeling like there was little point to another one. All the old characters are either dead or distilled to the point where they no longer draw my interest. The whole Resistance thing is a thing I've seen a bunch before and doesn't really offer anything new to me. I've seen plenty of Star Wars space battles and don't need any more. Clearly this trilogy is not going to deliver any good lightsaber fights. The only sort-of draw that's left is what happens with Rey and Kylo - and with the way this has been going, Kylo's conficted nature with Rey's resolute one, and general cinema logic tell me how it will end, and frankly if it ended a different way I'd probably be dissatisfied. Plus I still don't give a darn about Kylo even if he isn't as wimpy this time.

 

So yeah, kind of an interesting perspective. I enjoyed the movie, but simultaneously lost all interest in any new Star Wars stuff. The OT, KOTOR, and maybe the prequels sometimes will be all for me.


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#51 Kreia

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:33 PM

TFA was mediocre, TLJ is aweful. You seriously think IX will redeem both

Nothing can, there's no coming back.

At least with TLJ you have some characters with personality

Pretty much agree Hassat Hunter, I hated all the characters. Space janitor Finn is as interesting in this movie as if he were mopping the floors the entire movie, he didn't even get to sacrifice himself, he's mostly a love interest for Rose, who of course risks her life and declares her love for this guy she just met, because why not. Holdo is the public service announcement for women in positions of power who get victimized by evil men with no respect for their authority, a way to take you back to our world and out of Star Wars, because that's what you want when you go see Star Wars. Kathleen Kennedy must be so proud. Gotta miss the old days when Mon Mothma and Princess Leia commanded respect and never had to play the victim.

Saw II and III in the cinema and walked out just fine, not soul-crushed "what the fuck did I just watch"

Yep, when I watched the prequels at first I was too amazed to put actual thought in them just yet, there was no such magic with TLJ, it's like I was watching it from the dentist's chair during an operation with no anesthesia.

Mary Sue Rey the Undefeatable

Her being OP is not so much the biggest problem as the time and effort it took her to get there, or lack thereof I should say.

How exactly does that not mirror TFA and TLJ?

Then maybe I don't know what "mirror" means, because it sounds like more than just following the same formula.

Have your vomit bag ready

How about no thank you :lol:

#52 HK-47

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 02:07 AM

So I'm not going to read this thread (for your own sake and my sanity (remember my post about prequel hate?)), I'm just going to post these links here. It might be a duplicate of what someone else posted (sorry but there's no way to filter the thread to find that out). I'll let the foaming ragers do their thing. I ask that readers calmly and logically *reason out* the points made.

 

Side note: One of the sites, ThinkGeek I think, has a butt load of ads. Not popups and spam, just annoying and in a little in your face. Or it did on mobile version. Just a heads up.

 

https://geektyrant.c..._medium=related

 

http://epicstream.co...campaign=buffer


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#53 Mutilator57

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 11:13 AM

So I'm not going to read this thread (for your own sake and my sanity (remember my post about prequel hate?)), I'm just going to post these links here. It might be a duplicate of what someone else posted (sorry but there's no way to filter the thread to find that out). I'll let the foaming ragers do their thing. I ask that readers calmly and logically *reason out* the points made.

 

Side note: One of the sites, ThinkGeek I think, has a butt load of ads. Not popups and spam, just annoying and in a little in your face. Or it did on mobile version. Just a heads up.

 

https://geektyrant.c..._medium=related

 

http://epicstream.co...campaign=buffer

I haven't read all of both articles, but his point about the Force is total trash; the thinly-veiled justifications for a poorly-written story made retrospectively in a hasty and weak attempt to deflect any criticism.

All I have to say is that this kind of thinking is apart of the problem. It's the same type of stunt that GL pulled plenty of times in the prequels when characters did inexplicable and/or stupid stuff.

"Hey, it's the magic of the Force!".

That kind of freedom is fine, to a point. But I'm sorry, flying in space like Superman and astral-projection are too big a stretch for any sensible person, even within the realms of SW! Even if you think differently, the fact that we have to debate this detracts from the movie itself which is a clear indication of the plot's weakness. Part of why the OT was so good was because while the Force was always emphasised as a powerful presence, you never really saw OTT crap and if you did, it was always explained or justified.

With this, it's just meh...


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#54 1Leonard

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 12:06 PM

Glad to see this thread turned out to be a respectful discussion with no personal attacks whatsoever

#55 Deadput

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 06:57 PM

Wow people really don't like this movie.

 

By people I mean the "hardcore fans" and not most other people such as the movie goers who these films are made for, yes fans your not that special and important as you think you are.

 

This movie was perfectly fine and I enjoyed it as well as the fact it did not go the way I expected it to, it does have a few problems but things like Luke's fate is not one of them, Luke went out in a beautiful way and that's ignoring how the film sets up his return in the next one having become more powerful by ascending into the force and becoming one with it.

 

Snoke's death was damn brilliant, they should have explained more about him yes but the death itself was clever Snoke was made way to powerful for him to have a reasonable way to be killed in battle or something so the only way to kill him decently was to have him be outwitted like all Sith are.

 

Plus I really did not want Snoke to be a complete Emperor rip off.



#56 ZM90

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:14 AM

Saw it last Monday, and hated it.  I found Luke completely out of character.  You mean to tell me the same guy who saw the good in the second most evil person in the galaxy would contemplate killing the son of his sister and his best friend for even a minute?  Really movie?  Also you're telling me the same Luke that defied Yoda to go save his friends is going to go hide and wait to die really?  There were plenty of other issues with the movie but Luke's out of character behavior was my main issue.



#57 Deadput

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 07:58 AM

Are people suddenly going to forget that Luke failed all the time? The only times he really won is when he accepted the possibility of death such as jumping off the ledge in Empire instead of joining Vader and throwing down his lightsaber in ROTJ and would have likely died if it wasn't for Vader.

 

Hell he would not have been able to destroy the Death Star if it wasn't for Obi Wan and Han solo.

 

Luke's characterization is fine and in character like did people even watch the movie? Luke only activated the lightsaber out of instinct and he regrets that he did but Kylo woke up and got the wrong impression, and i don't think you understand why Luke hid in the first place.

 

People change it's been 30 years and Luke is no longer the naive kid he once was.



#58 Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 04:48 PM

...there's this crazy talk about the prequels being better than TLJ. Sure, you're entitled to your own opinions, but come on guys....prequels better than TLJ?! That's almost 'Turn in your SW Fan Card' territory right there.


Ok, kid, I have one question for ya, before I take your SW Fan Card and rip it into confetti...

How old are you? I went to see ANH as a 5 year old at a drive-in theatre in 1977. The prequels are a mile better than any of the Disney Wars movies. Lol at your mother's milk loving baby hands taking my SW Fan Card.

#59 Haveayap

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 10:51 PM

Ok, kid, I have one question for ya, before I take your SW Fan Card and rip it into confetti...

How old are you? I went to see ANH as a 5 year old at a drive-in theatre in 1977. The prequels are a mile better than any of the Disney Wars movies. Lol at your mother's milk loving baby hands taking my SW Fan Card.

TBH that's a little harsh. the SW movies have never been perfect. The OT, PT and Disneys movies + trilogies all have their ups and downs. Admittingly I am not too fond of Disneys work thus far. they lack that special touch that GL added to them and all 3 of them borderline feel like they are set in another galaxy


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#60 Kreia

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 02:18 AM

another great decomposition

He's a bit of an ass for calling Rose that, but I find myself agreeing with everything he said about the movie. 

be much more satisfied with this if they had left out all the stuff from the OT and called it a totally new thing. Then again I probably wouldn't have come to watch it

I totally would have come to watch it, there was absolutely no need to continue the Skywalker saga, a lot of people have been asking for a non-Skywalker story set in the same universe. They're like sitting on a gold mine with all these years of expanded universe stories they could have adapted, but no, they had to throw it all away and do their own thing.

I ask that readers calmly and logically *reason out* the points made

The points addressed by those interviews are only a couple, and not terribly important as far as I'm concerned. Leia's Mary Poppins moment was kinda sloppy in its execution, but the Force power itself is called Alter Environment and we've seen it before, just not in the movies. Force illusions and Force ghosts interacting with the physical world, again not exactly new. About fans having each their own wishlist, I say that's got nothing to do with liking or not liking what they got, and some things like consistency aren't just entries on a wishlist, they're minimum requirements. 

Luke only activated the lightsaber out of instinct and he regrets that he did

That scene doesn't make any sense, it's inexplicable how all that would happen in one moment. Luke doesn't take the time to think about what he saw, doesn't question it, doesn't talk about it. No one deserves to know, the boy certainly doesn't deserve to know, doesn't even deserve to be awake when it happens, even though the boy has yet to do anything to earn a death sentence. Whatever it is he'll do, Luke has seen it, the boy has to die right the eff now. Nothing short of preposterous, for anyone, nevermind Luke.




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