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The Last Jedi SPOILER DISCUSSION


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#21 sELFiNDUCEDcOMA

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 05:41 AM

Wanted to resist as much as possible discussing this movie, but, couldn't fight it enough.
 
Let me first say, I don't *hate* TLJ in it's entirety, but it is on the crap side of OK -- probably 6/10 from me.
 
First off, Rogue One is a "Star Wars Story". Yes I liked it because it was different, but, that's not my point. My point is that it was intentionally branded a certain way so as to make it part of the same universe, and story, but, NOT part of the trilogies. Further, if you set up a trilogy of films a certain way as in TFA, then regardless if the other films are made by different directors, they have an obligation to stick to what was setup in the first film. Rian Johnson clearly wants to tell his OWN Star Wars trilogy and he decided he was going to shit on what JJA established in the first film.
 
He clearly wants to make his own trilogy as he tried to not just do the second film of the trilogy but fit in enough content for the third as well into TLJ -- why it is such a mess of a film as it has too many narrative threads trying to be told. Which is why he was offered a trilogy of his own and JJA is going to finish off this one. That is unless it was simply a way of getting him off of these films once it dawned on them what he was doing -- killing JJA's vision of the trilogy along with what aspects of Star Wars that Lucas setup as canon.
 
To list the things I hated...

 

 

Won't add anything more, as many of you have stated other good reasons why this movie was meh. I'm glad that I saw it at a regular cinema instead of wasting money on IMAX 3D. Will likely watch it again but once I can do so for free.



#22 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:59 AM

Rogue One already broke the rules by allowing the crew to jump off Jakku while still being affected by that plnaets gravity.

I don't think Jakku appeared in Rogue One. Do you mean TFA where they went to hyperspace in a hangar just outside of Jakku (where all this happened and Hux/Kylo's ship RIGHT THERE ignored all of that happening), which already indeed was an indication Disney was messing with any pre-establisted rules.

I liked the duality of the rebellion but that never went everywhere

Much more than the 18h chase in a single system that pretty much the entire TLJ. Heck, in that 18h Rey did her whole "training" and caught up with them all. Literally.
Heck, this writing is getting worse and worse everytime you think about ANYTHING happening in it.

then you list a lot of fluff that sometimes was cool, but did nothing for the movie as a whole (Vader's scene is a perfect example of that)

Sounds like TLJ and the Guards fight. Except in much lower quantities IMO

but you skipped unlikable characters with no personality

Somehow with more character and backstory than the new trilogy managed in TWO MOVIES. Not a single throw-away like Snoke or Phasma, or Rose, or Pink-Hair Woman. Or Mas either.

stormtroopers more incompetent than ever

The First Order *somehow* managed to conquer the entire galaxy between the 0 minutes inbetween VII and VIII, yet also turned from genioune threat to hilarious over-the-top villain that couldn't kill a fly. And killed off their ONLY leader that wasn't a teen with rage issues. Good luck selling any threat in IX like that.

lack of any kind of meaningful or interesting story

18h chase with no progression whatsoever comes to mind.

lack of any kind of stakes or suspense because we know they're gonna get a thing before they even know what that thing is

Literally nobody dying in TLJ made any impact since all of them where throwaways. Infact the stakes or "suspense" was all annoyance at them missing yet another opportunity to actually add value to their characters.
Don't even get me STARTED on Finn's sacrifice, the first actual stake/suspension added in the movie (after 2 hours mind you) ruined again, per point.

and a terrible, uncharismatic lead actress

While Rey isn't uncharasmatic, her ability to literally gain lvl 50 from just typing IneedForce in a dropbox is just... terrible and making her feel like a cardboard cutout char.
And they ruined their opportunity to actually give it somewhat of a resolve, going the "nope, she's just awesome and able to do anything and never fails and literally better than JEDI JESUS cause reasons"
Sorry, can't get more terrible than that.

surrounded by useless fan service (Vader being the prime example, though things like a mention of Kenobi and random 3PO cameo were much worse)

I take it over TLJ's forced humour.

#23 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:59 AM

all to fill in an imaginary plot hole that ANH already covered ("its defenses are designed around a large scale assault, a small one man fighter should be able to penetrate it" was enough, and really didn't have to be explained).

Someone should tell the First Order when they put their GIGANTIC ship with 12 anti-fighter guns. 12! TLJ literally spawns plotholes out of thin air, and facepalms are inevitable. 12 man. TWELVE.
Who DESIGNED that thing?

Whole movie was a perfect example of fan service and telling stories of things we know, which was indeed the opposite of how The Last Jedi played with everyone's expectations and tried to do something new.

Rogue One did something new, loved it. TLJ didn't do "new" as much as it just crapped all over Star Wars as we know it, and *literally* added in Earth at one point. Expectations where CREATED by TFA, actual plotpoints we expected resolution. If toying with their own setup we expected resolution to is "playing with everyone's expectations" I just call it what it is; Writing a story and then just throwing it away. Did you think KOTOR2 would be better if it went, oh well, KOTOR1 was all about Revan, now we're 5 years later... Bastila stabbed him, the end. Well, here's our new story, 18 hours of Malachor V slogfest would you also go "This is great!" Cause that's how it feels like.

I liked that Rey is a nobody. If she was another Skywalker or Kenobi it would make the galaxy feel really small. Other families are allowed to be Jedi and heroes as well, right?

So... it's a good thing the guy the prophecies tell of for THOUSANDS of years is outclassed in every way 2 generations later by a nobody literally tenfold. Without any training.
And that's... good?

Why did they even prophecise the Skywalkers if within 2 generations their power was peanuts. They should have made a prophecy about the power of Rey.

I would be fine with a new powerful Jedi out of thin air if it took like 4000 years after the original trilogy. Not when the original Skywalkers weren't even dead and literally made of Force, literally Jesus, and this girl just stamps all on Jesus. I don't think Jesus got surpassed these 2017 years right? Now imagine 40-50 years, and you got Rey.

Viewing the trilogy as a three act structure the second act is ideal for doing just that (see Ep. V with Yoda training Luke).

But tell me... what is left for IX. Why should I care about the next movie. Cause... I don't.
The First Order only exist out of immature teennage rageboys who are about as threatening as an Ewok. Heck Ewoks are more treatening. It would be like the Empire run by Gungans. Yeah, that's scary right?
On the other hand the Rebellion consists out of... well; Finn and Rose who are literally pointless after VII (Here's a prediction; In IX Finn runs, gets stopped and turns a hero. Cause we haven't seen that arch twice yet). Rey is literally the boring super woman who there is no interest to watch since she wont fail anyway, she can't. Such tension *yawn*. Leia dies offscreen. And I feel Poe literally should have died off in VII already to not cheapen Finn's arch. And he was kind of a pointless tool in VIII too. Only character making any progression in the 18h slogfest race, but a character I never liked throughout either.
So... Chewie. Watch IX only for Chewie. Eeeeh... no?
The ending here really felt like an ending. First Order is a joke. They all resolved what ridicilous plotpoints this movie had, everyone interesting is dead. What literally should IX tell? Doesn't feel like there's another movie left there from the non-existent plot left. All got killed. All that's left is facing Kylo. And that sounds terribly dull since he's a horrible antagonist.
Lackey, okay. Antagonist... No, nope. Nuhu. No way.

There is literally ZERO incentive to watch IX from this movie. Even if it didn't crush your Star Wars soul.

#24 Qui-Gon Glenn

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 03:46 AM

Stop giving them money. The sadness is enough, don't compound it.

I hate Disney.

#25 1Leonard

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 02:19 PM

 

So... it's a good thing the guy the prophecies tell of for THOUSANDS of years is outclassed in every way 2 generations later by a nobody literally tenfold. Without any training.
And that's... good?

Why did they even prophecise the Skywalkers if within 2 generations their power was peanuts. They should have made a prophecy about the power of Rey.

I would be fine with a new powerful Jedi out of thin air if it took like 4000 years after the original trilogy. Not when the original Skywalkers weren't even dead and literally made of Force, literally Jesus, and this girl just stamps all on Jesus. I don't think Jesus got surpassed these 2017 years right? Now imagine 40-50 years, and you got Rey.
 

This is a misrepresentation of the prophecy in the prequel, which is confirmed by Lucas to ultimately be about Anakin, not Luke.

Besides that, being the Chosen One has never stated to bring a large amount of power with it, only that they'd bring balance to the Force, which is not something directly correlated to being an all-powerful being. 

 

(Btw, I think the prophecy is a ridiculous plot element, even after the three prequels we know more about Snoke than about the prophecy, which is saying something.)

 

I agree with you on the fact that Rey is incredibly powerful for someone whose Force has just Awakened. There seems to be a general inflation in Force Power if you look at the production order of the movies, with each movie having to outdo the previous one. Of course, this also corresponds with cheaper technologies and better CGI. Episode I-II-III can be explained by the jedi having trained for a long time and being actual masters of the Force. Episode VII and VIII don't have an in-universe explanation for some of the feats that are shown yet. Maybe there will be, I hope there will be, because if there isn't one it would be detrimental to the trilogy as a whole. 

 

But tell me... what is left for IX. Why should I care about the next movie. Cause... I don't.
[Rage cut for clarity (if you want to make your actual points you are still free to do so!)]
There is literally ZERO incentive to watch IX from this movie. Even if it didn't crush your Star Wars soul.

 

This is a pretty emotional point and I have trouble understanding what you mean through all the rage so I'll only talk about the incentive to watch Episode IX.
Seeing as how you talk about why you feel why you don't want to see IX, I'd like to tell you why I feel I still do.

TLJ has mainly been about failure: Luke's failure to train new jedi, Finn/Rose's failure to find the codebreaker and save the resistance, Poe's failure to follow orders, Leia/Hondo's failed leadership, Snoke's failure to see Kylo Ren's betrayal coming, Rey/Kylo's failure to turn each other to their respective sides, even though they understand each other better now.

To me, it is interesting to see the outcome of all these failures, because you are supposed to become better from failing, which is the exact point Yoda makes as well.

I expect IX to have a timeskip in order for both the Resistance and the First Order to reform themselves in some sort.
We see in the end of VIII that Rey and Kylo still have their Force Bond which can mean several things (is Snoke still alive? Was the bond not is doing? If so, whose was it?)

We know Rey and Kylo will meet again to decide the fates of both the resistance and the First Order
We know Rey has taken the Jedi Books with her onto the Millenium Falcon, could this save the Jedi?
We now know that the Force strives for a balance, what does that entail? What are the consequences of this?
We still need to know why Rey is so powerful (In my opinion this needs to be answered, could also be connected to the above)

However, it's okay if you don't like this movie, nobody forces you to. Nobody forces you to watch the next one either.



#26 Sithspecter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 05:13 PM

I watched The Last Jedi yesterday, and would like to share my thoughts here.
 
As a preface, I would like to add that I had mixed feelings when I saw The Force Awakens, but hoped that it could lead to better things. Additionally, I had mixed feelings about Rogue One. Leading up to TLJ, I did not follow social media and carefully guarded myself against spoilers. I was quite excited for this installment. I was really hoping they wouldn't try to ride too much nostalgia trip from ESB.
 
Opening crawl immediately pointed to an ESB type story initially, and then there was the evacuation and everything. Pretty standard ESB copy. So then we get up into space and have Poe trying to hail the Imperial ship. The connection joke fell absolutely flat. Tried to set up a light tone at a time that should have been tense and grim, felt very forced. So then Poe activates his super-engine or whatever and destroys all the anti-aircraft guns. THEN the Imperials decide to scramble fighters. Seemed like a stupid move, I would expect they should already have fighters providing top-cover for the entire operation. 
 
Next, we cue the bomber attack. I liked the ship design of the bombers, seemed like a beefier B-Wing. I did not like the melodramatic sequence where the pilot is trying to release the bombs with the absolutely ludicrous bomb-release-remote. Spent way too long on that sequence. Bombardier is dead, just crash the ship into the dreadnought. Same emotional impact (or lack thereof), same sacrifice. Spare the drama please. Also it was stupid that the bombs are apparently still under gravity's pull. Stick with the physics, thank you.
 
Then, the expected hyperspace jump. Slightly unexpected was that the Imperials are able to follow. The next sequence of events is a mess of plot holes that is to stagger the imagination. The Resistance ships are apparently able to "outrun" the Imperial ones with their sublight engines. Well, what's to stop the Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts from doing a micro hyperspace jump to just in front of the Resistance ships and subsequently blow them out of the sky? Additionally, with the bridge (or one of the bridges), and the cruiser's fighters destroyed, what's keeping the Imperial fighters from attacking the Rebel ships at will? The Imperials show many other places in the movie that they are not afraid to use excessive force to wipe out the Resistance. It seems to me they had several options to destroy what remained of the Resistance well before waiting for them to run out of fuel. I found myself disappointed at the complete idiocy of what was going on.
 
Then, Kylo's TiE buddies take out the bridge (or one of the bridges, apparently there is another). At that moment, I'm thinking, "Leia is gone. I've made my peace with it, that's how she would want to go." But no! Instead we get to go Guardians of the Galaxy and Leia brings up this previously unknown Force skill and is able to bring herself back to the ship. I can't take this movie seriously at this point. They should have let her die at this point in the movie. She added next to nothing to the remainder of the film.
 
Cue Vice-Admiral Holdo, who apparently just stumbled on set from the Hunger Games. As pointed out above, one would hope she could conjure up a uniform or something. But no, instead we have elegant dresses and pink tresses. Her dismissal of Poe is stupid at best, and borderline criminal negligence at worst. Instead of briefing the crew on the plan and preparing to execute it, the command leaves the entire crew in the dark with nothing to go on. This is without a doubt the biggest plot hole in the entire Star Wars saga. As a viewer, it seemed to me (without knowing at the time that there was in fact a plan), that she was going to blindly burn the rest of their fuel in a vain hope that an option would turn up in the next 6 hours.
 
So naturally the events that follow Rose (C'mon, let's think of some original names please?) and Finn are completely unnecessary, and add little to the film. Their entire excision to Canto Bright seemed little more than a PETA commercial. I will have to admit that I did not have as much an issue with the Canto Bright casino as most did. In fact, outside of the unoriginal attire, my initial thought was that it was the most Star Wars-y thing I had seen in the movie so far. Which is to say how little the movie felt like Star Wars. The most ludicrous thing that happened during that whole arc was Rose's, "Now it's worth it!" after setting the animals free. As if their failure to aid the Rebellion and avenge her sister's death was now fine and dandy that a few animals got released back into the wild. The whole time I'm also thinking, Benecio del Toro was cast as a villain, right? I'm hoping this movie can conjure up some really amazing stuff to make it worth it, because right now I'm 80% sure it's the stupidest movie I have ever seen, and I watched Iron Sky.
 
Back on Ach-To, Luke tosses his Father's lightsaber over his shoulder in a flat attempt at humor. So much for, "This weapon is your life". Unfortunately, after that little gesture, I knew I was going to be disappointed with whatever happened with Luke. Then we have Luke the milkman and Luke the fisherman, in an apparent gambit to explain how Luke survives on this island. And there are maids that take care of everything? What? Also Luke has turned into a whiny, pathetic loser. The Luke we see is nowhere close to the character of the Original Trilogy. Mark Hamill was right to object about what his character is doing. Luke doesn't run away and hide. Luke comes to the aid of his friends, no matter what.
 
That's all I have the energy for right now. I will continue my review of the movie later.


#27 zbyl2

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 05:17 PM

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

Much more than the 18h chase in a single system that pretty much the entire TLJ. Heck, in that 18h Rey did her whole "training" and caught up with them all. Literally.[/quote]

 

You just compared the best part of of R1 to the one of the worst parts of TLJ.
Might as well say prequels were better because that opening battle was awesome and Ewoks were dumb.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

Heck, in that 18h Rey did her whole "training" and caught up with them all.[/quote]

 

Chase must have been longer. Rey was training for at least days. 18 hours was given after a while, who knows how much time they spent in hyperspace and how much time Rey spent with Luke before the evacuation.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

Sounds like TLJ and the Guards fight. Except in much lower quantities IMO[/quote]

 

Stormtroopers beaten by a girl with a stick is worse than two Force user taking on imperial guards after shockingly killing what we assumed was the main bad guy?[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

Not a single throw-away like Snoke or Phasma, or Rose, or Pink-Hair Woman. Or Mas either.[/quote]

 

What. Literally every one in Rogue One was a throw away. And before you say "that's the point of their suicide mission" - it doesn't matter. At least I remember anything about characters you mentioned. That alone makes for a better experience.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

The First Order *somehow* managed to conquer the entire galaxy between the 0 minutes inbetween VII and VIII, yet also turned from genioune threat to hilarious over-the-top villain that couldn't kill a fly. And killed off their ONLY leader that wasn't a teen with rage issues. Good luck selling any threat in IX like that.[/quote]

 

I already complained about all that with TFA which was supposed to set it up. Don't care any more.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

Literally nobody dying in TLJ made any impact since all of them where throwaways.[/quote]

 

Literally nobody dying in R1 made any impact since all of them were throwaways.

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

While Rey isn't uncharasmatic, her ability to literally gain lvl 50 from just typing IneedForce in a dropbox is just... terrible and making her feel like a cardboard cutout char.[/quote]

 

She got her ass kicked for half the movie.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61352" timestamp="1513562380"]

 

I take it over TLJ's forced humour.[/quote]

 

Or compare it to TLJ's fan service which was also terrible and I also criticized.
Oh right R1 didn't have dumb humor. If you ignore half the robot's lines.[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61353" timestamp="1513562393"]

 

Rogue One did something new, loved it. TLJ didn't do "new" as much as it just crapped all over Star Wars as we know it, and *literally* added in Earth at one point.[/quote]

 

Literally no.[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61353" timestamp="1513562393"]

 

Did you think KOTOR2 would be better if it went, oh well, KOTOR1 was all about Revan, now we're 5 years later... Bastila stabbed him, the end. Well, here's our new story, 18 hours of Malachor V slogfest would you also go "This is great!" Cause that's how it feels like.[/quote]

 

Revan is interesting because of KOTOR 2, so yeah, probably. Well, not with this terrible backstory, but with focusing on other stuff. It would be worse than TSL but we wouldn't know that because our TSL would never exist.

 

[quote name="Hassat Hunter" post="61353" timestamp="1513562393"]

 

Why did they even prophecise the Skywalkers if within 2 generations their power was peanuts. They should have made a prophecy about the power of Rey.[/quote]

 

I want Rey to do something nearly as badass as Luke did in the end. Or Leia. Rey did NOTHING that was even close to their power level.
And I really don't want to talk about the prophecy, or the prequels in general, but "we may have misunderstood it" or whatever it was Yoda said in ROTS, if you want an in-universe explanation.



#28 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 06:59 PM

@1Leonard:
I know the Prophecy is about Anakin. When did I state otherwise? You can clearly see so by me saying "2 generation" Luke being the first new generation, and Rey the second. See?
And yeah, it was stated Anakin was the most powerful Jedi ever. Midichlorian scene remember? Born from the Force.

We know more about Snoke than the Prophecy, really? Tell me ANYTHING we know of snoke, besides his visuals since we can see them. That's pretty much it.

My point exactly, "Rey Nobody" is an actual insult to the sudden surge of Power shown. And the Prequels didn't really show an increase in Force Power, just more flashy lightsaber combat.
And Anakin went through about as many years as Kylo Ren to make progress (there's no actual real use of Force by him in Phantom Menace, as should be), not the days of Rey. Untrained.

ESB had failures. Luke failed against his father and learned his lineage, making the stakes higher. Han got frozen. TLJ has NONE of these setups. None. While the Rey/Kylo scenes are the best of TLJ they really have no emotional connection to care for us moving to IX. Unlike Luke/Father were we wonder if he can overcome his lack of power here we got Rey, who's Rey and Rey is awesome and can't fail so we really don't care about the confrontation, she'll win like she always does. For a movie of failure it seems awfully unaware for a main character to be interesting they need that failure to be believable and have something to actually overcome that interests the viewer. Rey got none of that.

Even if there was such leadup (VII had it) the way VIII shat all over it would anyone really trust a proper resolution now?

"The Dragons are coming" -Game of Thrones
"Hah, they got killed off-screen to here. We juuuust hyped them up a loooong time, but it's all your fault for actually going in with our hype. Suckers!"
Would you really go with 'Best plottwist ever' or 'Terrible terrible writers'?

1. Probably. Can't care either way.
2. Snoke being alive would be a copout ruining yet another movie, so hopefully not.
3. And we know Rey will win since Rey is Rey and Rey can't loose. Exciting! (not)
4. The Jedi (and Sith) are a philosophy, not a set of rules. You should really know this. They don't need books to "survive". Infact the books would mostly just introduce the failures of the Jedi Kreia and Luke hate so much (and Luke thus didn't follow in the old EU anyway).
5. I... literally cannot care?
6. I agree, but this movie completely and utterly ruined this.

I would really like any incentive to watch IX, but VIII left absolutely zero reasons to go for it in.

#29 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 08:06 PM

That wasn't even close to the worst part of TLJ.
And yes, Prequels beat the Newquels at this date.

Nothing was given in the movie. TFA ended with "training and going to the Rebel Base" and TLJ picks up right where it got off. So the 18h was all we were given (and remember in that time Finn and Rose got to do their entire PETA-part on Earth too).
Either days are really short on Luke's planet or it's just really crap writing at work. (Answer: It's B )

Worst battle vs. only worthwhile battle in the movie. Who compares worst to best now?

The rememberence being "Who was he?", "Why did they even promote a non-character", "Why ain't she dead?", "Why didn't this woman just tell Poe the plan, the Resistence sucks as much as The First Order" or "Plot-advancement device" (fair enough the Darth-Vader machined guy in Rogue One follows somewhat similar to Mas... but it's got nowhere near the throwable character-roster the new Trilogy has.

That seems to be a common charasteristic about people liking TLJ, telling people who care "don't care"/"doesn't matter" or "just deal with it" for ANYTHING based around plot. Sorry, I don't watch movies with my brains off, that's just not my thing.

R1 didn't have a follow-up movie that relies on tension, TLJ does. There isn't. It's Darth Emo vs. The Undefeatable Mary Sue. Ohh... what could POSSIBLY happen?

I must have missed that entire half then since she beat the 15-year trained Sith guy within 5 days of learning about the Force. He got his face cut up, she had 0 injuries as of yet in 2 entire movies.

Humour is part of all Star Wars movies, mostly coming from the droids (forgetting Jar Jar for a moment). TLJ seriously went overboard with everyone being a joke, primarily the bad guys.

They can't even use Star Wars terms at that point and went to earth-terms. Nobody writing this knows Star Wars obviously or they would have never added "cops" or "hacker"... come on.

It's almost like TSL is a good middle of a trilogy. Building on it's predecessor (rather than throwing all away) and leaving much room for a third part and an interest in exploring it. Both not TLJ's area.

You say badass, I say lame. Especially Leia's Force use was absolutely attrocious. It looked ridicilious.
Not to mention nothing in TFA even remotely hinted at Leia getting training so it's another mysterious power usage.
And Luke dying to that. Being peaceful? How the hell did the kids even learn Luke doing that, did the First Order publically broadcast their assault or something (they are so borderline stupid at this point I wouldn't even question *that*). Oh, I brought Hope by doing absolutely nothing, better pass on now.
Come the fuck on...
Yeah, they did misinterpretate it, in that "balance" wiped out the Jedi entirely to do so rather than the Sith. Doesn't make it fairly likely Jesus is outclassed tenfold 2 generations after birth.

#30 sELFiNDUCEDcOMA

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:28 PM

Though I don't think it is the worst Star Wars movie ever -- if you do, you haven't seen The Star Wars Holiday Special or either of the Star Wars Ewok Adventure films. Though considering that Disney now holds the licence, you may yet see worse as they milk it for as much as they can.

 

I am honestly baffled by people who claim that TLJ is actually a good film if not the best Star Wars film to date. They clearly do not understand what makes a good film, and I am speaking of structure. TLJ was a bloated hole-filled mess that failed to stick to what was set by way of vision, story, character and narrative style in TFA. It is meant to be a trilogy of films, not a collection of anthology. If you do not understand the importance of this, then why TLJ has so far gotten a user score of 4.9 on Metacritic and an audience score of 56% on Rotten Tomatoes, must be a complete mystery to you. And to be clear, neither one of those is a "good" score. My 6/10 is me saying it is watchable, but only if you paid next to nothing to see it.

 

When a film gets such a difference between "professional" critic and average person scores, I take notice and usually go with the average person score. If I watch IX at all at the cinemas, it will be based upon how well the film has done after a week -- my mistake was not waiting longer. And I mean in the eyes of the average person not a critic who may have been paid or at least schmoozed at exclusive viewings to see the film in a better light.

 

Regardless, I now have a big issue with Star Wars, and would struggle to see this new trilogy -- or any that Rian Johnson helms -- as being canon. And would approach any Star Wars film or TV series created by Disney much in the way I have treated Star Wars games made over the years. It is unlikely that all will be good or even great, but once in a while, there will be a standout worth playing (or watching). And I'll end up doing so like a year or two after everyone else has as the hype has no effect on me.

 

And I hope this is the last I have to say about this rubbish film, as I can't believe I am still thinking about it 4 days after seeing it.



#31 Haveayap

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:45 PM

@1Leonard:
I know the Prophecy is about Anakin. When did I state otherwise? You can clearly see so by me saying "2 generation" Luke being the first new generation, and Rey the second. See?
And yeah, it was stated Anakin was the most powerful Jedi ever. Midichlorian scene remember? Born from the Force.

We know more about Snoke than the Prophecy, really? Tell me ANYTHING we know of snoke, besides his visuals since we can see them. That's pretty much it.

My point exactly, "Rey Nobody" is an actual insult to the sudden surge of Power shown. And the Prequels didn't really show an increase in Force Power, just more flashy lightsaber combat.
And Anakin went through about as many years as Kylo Ren to make progress (there's no actual real use of Force by him in Phantom Menace, as should be), not the days of Rey. Untrained.

ESB had failures. Luke failed against his father and learned his lineage, making the stakes higher. Han got frozen. TLJ has NONE of these setups. None. While the Rey/Kylo scenes are the best of TLJ they really have no emotional connection to care for us moving to IX. Unlike Luke/Father were we wonder if he can overcome his lack of power here we got Rey, who's Rey and Rey is awesome and can't fail so we really don't care about the confrontation, she'll win like she always does. For a movie of failure it seems awfully unaware for a main character to be interesting they need that failure to be believable and have something to actually overcome that interests the viewer. Rey got none of that.

Even if there was such leadup (VII had it) the way VIII shat all over it would anyone really trust a proper resolution now?

"The Dragons are coming" -Game of Thrones
"Hah, they got killed off-screen to here. We juuuust hyped them up a loooong time, but it's all your fault for actually going in with our hype. Suckers!"
Would you really go with 'Best plottwist ever' or 'Terrible terrible writers'?

1. Probably. Can't care either way.
2. Snoke being alive would be a copout ruining yet another movie, so hopefully not.
3. And we know Rey will win since Rey is Rey and Rey can't loose. Exciting! (not)
4. The Jedi (and Sith) are a philosophy, not a set of rules. You should really know this. They don't need books to "survive". Infact the books would mostly just introduce the failures of the Jedi Kreia and Luke hate so much (and Luke thus didn't follow in the old EU anyway).
5. I... literally cannot care?
6. I agree, but this movie completely and utterly ruined this.

I would really like any incentive to watch IX, but VIII left absolutely zero reasons to go for it in.

anakin was actually confirmed to be the chosen one in tcw with the father, daughter and son episode. So anyone who argues maybe he wasnt should just watch that episode.

"What is better? To be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" - Paarthurnax


#32 Sithspecter

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 12:03 AM

Now that I've had some time to think about The Last Jedi, I honestly believe TFA and TLJ could have been combined into one movie. There were many unnecessary build-ups, story arcs, and other plot devices that could have been eliminated from the two movies, and a more concise single movie in its place.

 

My thought is that TFA could have been shifted to focus on destroying Snoke himself instead of the ludicrous Starkiller Base. Since Snoke dies in TLJ, there's little point to his character now. Instead, TFA could have used him as the target instead of Death Star III. This gives the characters the belief that they could be ending this thing once and for all, and could be a large motivator for Luke to return.

 

Instead of Rey arriving on Ahch-To at the end of TFA, this becomes part of the second act. Rey and Han instead seek out Luke's help, and Luke returns with them, reuniting the entire OT cast. Luke, Han, and Leia confront Kylo while the new cast (Poe, Finn, and company) are focused on a space-based method of destroying Snoke's flagship. Luke and Leia witness Han's death, and make their escape as the rest of the crew brings down the flagship. Snoke is unable to save himself with the Force, and the Resistance wins a costly victory, with most of their fleet decimated in the all out assault. This leaves the core crew in a few X-Wings and the Millennium Falcon to set up for the next movie.

 

Essentially you could easily end up in the same place from one movie. Instead, we got a setup, then a drastic shift away from everything that had been set up.



#33 Kreia

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:09 PM

Give me a pass on the hyperbole, but this movie was a devastating experience :lol: I'm not kidding, I hate this movie so much that I don't plan on sticking around for anything else.

Luke, who brought one of the most corrupted and evil force user back to the light, considers, even for a brief second, to kill the son of his sister and his best friend because he senses darkness in him

Mark Hamill was right to object about what his character is doing. Luke doesn't run away and hide. Luke comes to the aid of his friends, no matter what.

There, THANK YOU.

While Rey isn't uncharasmatic, her ability to literally gain lvl 50 from just typing IneedForce in a dropbox is just... terrible

Yes. You know, I was so excited to have more female characters is Star Wars, but this is an insult to what little we got of female characters in the OT. We only had Leia and Mon Mothma as far as I can remember, but they got your attention and interest on merit, their characters stood the test of time on merit, not by contrast to how shitty the male characters were. Writing all the male characters as miserable failures and troublemakers doesn't make the female characters good by comparison, and I don't like the implication that female characters need to rely on that, because they never did.

#34 DarthYcey

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:57 PM

So, I'm a little late to the party, but I did see the first showing out in LA with the rest of our KOTOR movie team (we all loved it, btw).  In case for some unknown reason you still haven't seen the film, I'm not going to get into spoiler territory about all the plot points I liked or didn't like, especially since they've been covered already, so I'll just add some observations I've made from other comments in this thread..

 

First off, some of you are complaining that TFA was too much like ANH and didn't like the fact that it wasn't more original.  Then, the same people complain that TLJ was TOO original and subverted expectations in too many ways.  I've seen the same arguments on other media platforms too.  You can't have it both ways, guys.

 

I've read comments about R1 being a better movie, which is debatable.  R1 and TLJ are two very different movies, with R1 having the advantage of you already knowing what's going to happen.  At least with TLJ you have some characters with personality... the R1 cast was forgettable (even the lead), which makes it nearly impossible to connect with them or even care about their deaths.  Still, R1 was a fine movie because of the action and getting to see how an important event you know from SW canon actually played out.  There were some cool moments, even the unneeded Vader fan service at the end, but overall the movie definitely was not 'awesome'.  I'd rank it only in front of the prequels.  Speaking of prequels....

 

...there's this crazy talk about the prequels being better than TLJ.  Sure, you're entitled to your own opinions, but come on guys....prequels better than TLJ?!  That's almost 'Turn in your SW Fan Card' territory right there.  Those of you that liked the prequels better must have only liked the Canto Bight scenes in the movie then, which were some of the worst in the film.

 

I've seen a lot of negativity about the humor in the film too.  The opening Poe dialogue pretty much sets the tone for humor in this movie, so if you didn't like that, it's no surprise you didn't like the rest.  Sure, not all the jokes landed, but overall I thought the humor was justified because it either matched what the character would do (e.g. Poe as he was in TFA) or the situation (e.g. Luke and the saber).  Don't tell me the humor is too slapstick or inappropriate in TLJ, but that you also enjoyed the prequels, which were beyond silly at times.

 

And yes, there seemed to be some universally despised moments in the film, but no way was there enough of these moments to pull down the overall movie.  I feel like there's so many nitpickers on here wanting to make their own 'Everything Wrong With...' videos instead of just enjoying the film.  The other problem is that it seems too many of you are making your minds up about the trilogy after seeing only two movies.  Maybe some of the choices you didn't like in TLJ will make more sense once you see Ep 9.  It's too early IMO to judge this movie without having the full trilogy available for context.  Don't forget there were plenty of disappointed fans after ESB too who weren't happy about the departure from ANH, and things turned out pretty well after ROTJ, which ppl to seemed to like more initially than ESB, but is considered the weakest of the OT now by most fans.  I predict TLJ will bring the doubting fans around after Ep 9, much like ROTJ did after ESB.  Doubters definitely need to see this whole trilogy play out before they classify TLJ as a bad movie.

 

I'm also not convinced that some of the big reveals/shocking moments will hold up.  It's clear RJ and Disney wanted to subvert expectations so much that I wouldn't be surprised if there were more misdirects made than we realized, which would lead to more unexpected moments in Ep 9.  I, for one, am excited about Ep 9 because I have no idea what's going to happen or what the movie is even going to be about.  Sort of like ESB, you weren't sure where the story was going to go after the Vader as Luke's father reveal, but at least you had that conflict out there, a frozen Han, and an evil emperor....with Ep 9, you know very little so anything could happen.

 

TLJ isn't perfect by any means.  Some jokes fell flat, the story felt bloated at times with silly plot points, and there was at least one really stupid thing that happened, but overall I had fun at both viewings...I actually enjoyed it more the second time around.  I'll be anxiously awaiting 2019, and as a true SW fan, I'll be seeing Ep 9 opening night in theaters.  Feel free to wait until it comes out on Netflix....less grumbling and sighing around me then as I'm trying to enjoy the movie.  :)



#35 LucyTheAlien

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 03:17 PM

This film was an uneven mess.
One will make the choice- all will make the journey.

#36 valas991

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 05:06 PM

I firmly believe more thought went into Kreia alone than to this entire movie.

Not much to add, people already told a lot about the general problems.



#37 Spectrometer

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 05:53 PM

...

 

First off, some of you are complaining that TFA was too much like ANH and didn't like the fact that it wasn't more original.  Then, the same people complain that TLJ was TOO original and subverted expectations in too many ways.  I've seen the same arguments on other media platforms too.  You can't have it both ways, guys.

...

 

...there's this crazy talk about the prequels being better than TLJ.  Sure, you're entitled to your own opinions, but come on guys....prequels better than TLJ?!  That's almost 'Turn in your SW Fan Card' territory right there.  Those of you that liked the prequels better must have only liked the Canto Bight scenes in the movie then, which were some of the worst in the film.

 

 

 

About this 2 paragraphs, first, who says you can't have it both ways? Medium terms DO exist; and second, to me it doesn't seem fair that you turn down other opinions implying that "The prequels are objectively worse than what I consider better".



#38 Kreia

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 09:28 PM

The expanded universe comes to mind, how have they been doing it all these years? If your movie is set in the Star Wars universe, it has to be the Star Wars universe, and that still leaves you all the room you could possibly need to come up with a story that does not rip off what's already been done and doesn't besmirch the very things that carried the love of this franchise through the decades, passing from one generation to the next. I suppose the prequels did damage some stuff from the OT, but at least they didn't turn the effing protagonist into something so far opposite of what he stood for. I can ignore the prequels if I want to and still enjoy the OT, I can't do that now after I've seen Mark Hamill himself portray that abominable version of Luke in TLJ. Not that Luke is the only one, what about Leia? "Oh don't worry dear, I know my son is gone, you go ahead and kill him." What!? 🤢 And speaking of Leia, you wanna talk about humor? What happened to hers? We loved her in the OT because she was witty and feisty and badass with a blaster in her hand, all while being a space princess. See if you can see any of that in any of the female characters now.

#39 Mutilator57

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:03 PM

I firmly believe more thought went into Kreia alone than to this entire movie.

Not much to add, people already told a lot about the general problems.

I'm at the point where I can't tell if it's all creative excellence gone above the heads of us ordinary folk OR a piece of throwaway trash that had all of 5 minutes spent on it. That's a worrying confusion!

I can understand some people thinking the film is better than others, but those (like on some FB groups I've seen) claiming it's as good as, if not better than ESB, just boggles the bloody mind!

I almost forgot; my final verdict is a 4.5/10...and that's being generous.


Edited by Mutilator57, 21 December 2017 - 11:13 PM.

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#40 Hassat Hunter

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:55 PM

First off, some of you are complaining that TFA was too much like ANH and didn't like the fact that it wasn't more original.  Then, the same people complain that TLJ was TOO original and subverted expectations in too many ways.  I've seen the same arguments on other media platforms too.  You can't have it both ways, guys.

Did you HONESTLY said this on forums dedicated to KOTOR?

KOTOR1 is a rehash of the Star Wars story. KOTOR2 is a total deviation from it. Basically they mirror TFA and TLJ entirely.

Difference is; Both KOTORs were good. Both movies were bad.
Apparently IT is possible though to do either and not suck. Funny that.

EDIT: Being in the KOTOR2 > KOTOR1 team I, by your terms, should unconditionally love TLJ. I don't cause it's a horrid mess.




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