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[WIP] Recruit Dark Side Juhani


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#41 Kexikus

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 07:02 PM

Time for another post to update you on what's going on (it's not much).

 

I've been writing Juhanis companion dialog and while it's going slow I'm nearing completion. If I learned one thing though it's that I don't really enjoy writing so much dialog at once...

 

Anyway, I also need some more opinions on certain things:

 

1. I'd love to give the player the option to train Juhani as a Sith while on the Ebon Hawk. Ideally this would be available every few levels, give the player a choice what he/she wants Juhani to learn, then play a cutscene and give Juhani that feat/spell/stat boost/whatever. Most of that is no problem but since this is K1 I have absolutely NO way of giving a character spells/force powers with scripts and I can only give feats with hidden items meaning that you can't get the next level of that feat without actually skilling the one given through the training on level up. This means that I can basically only give stat boosts which is not quite what I want but I think I'll go with it. The question is now: Should I make certain feats available this way too? Or are there any feats that Juhani can not get on level up that could be used here? Any opinion is very welcome :)

 

2. As you probably know Juhani thinks she killed her master when you first meet her. If you manage to convince her to return to the light you can later talk to her and she'll tell you that master Quatra didn't actually die. But if you pursue the dark side option in my mod Juhani will never learn of that fact. I think though that it would make a very nice character builing conversation if the player could learn about it and then tell Juhani. The problem is that the player doesn't learn this except from that one conversation with Juhani when you redeem her. So my question now is if anyone has any good idea on how I could let the player learn of this fact. Since this isn't really important I'd rather not have any complicated solutions like making a new head for master Quatra and having her appear in the Enclave at some point (although that would be kinda cool it'd introduce more problems and would also be too much work). So if you have suggestions please let me know.

 

And finally an announcement: Once the dialog is done I will need to refine it before I can get to the voice acting. Among other tests this would ideally include someone who's better than me at character and dialog writing going over all of it and helping me improve it. If you think you're good at this and also know how to edit .dlg files, send me a PM and maybe we can work together on this. Note though that I want to go over the dialog myself before I send it to you and I need to write all of it first so it will take a while since this proofreading actually starts.


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#42 LDR

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 09:31 PM

I could have sworn one of the Jedi masters made a passing reference to Quatra but I could be mistaken. Glad to hear you're still going at this, best of luck.


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#43 DarthNonOriginalName

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:00 AM

I really like the idea of being able to train her :-)
You could do it with some special items just for her (make a requirement that only characters with force camouflage feat can equit it) and just add stats/feats on those items. I'd suggest using an arm slot, because I doubt there is anyone who uses 2 energy shields on those. Other cool option might be a robe but then you would probably want a unique skin for it and that just adds more work.
Another idea that could fit into that "training" concept might be increasing her dark side alignment. Honestly, I don't know if that's even possible because I have never tried modding myself but it would be kind of cool to see her go further to the dark side after each training session and that would definitely make it seem that you are teaching her the way of the sith :-)
Now about that whole "Quatra is dead" conversation... I don't really have any interesting ideas. Maybe just adding some dialogue options about it to one of existing characters. I think there's a jedi named Belaya in the enclave on Dantooine who is supposed to be Juhani's friend so maybe just make it so you can ask her about Quatra.
I hope that I helped. Sorry for the long post and keep up the good work ;-)

#44 superSzym

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:28 AM

Yes, what will happen to Belaya if Juhani is dark side?

#45 Kexikus

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:31 PM

I really like the idea of being able to train her :-)
You could do it with some special items just for her (make a requirement that only characters with force camouflage feat can equit it) and just add stats/feats on those items. I'd suggest using an arm slot, because I doubt there is anyone who uses 2 energy shields on those. Other cool option might be a robe but then you would probably want a unique skin for it and that just adds more work.
Another idea that could fit into that "training" concept might be increasing her dark side alignment. Honestly, I don't know if that's even possible because I have never tried modding myself but it would be kind of cool to see her go further to the dark side after each training session and that would definitely make it seem that you are teaching her the way of the sith :-)
Now about that whole "Quatra is dead" conversation... I don't really have any interesting ideas. Maybe just adding some dialogue options about it to one of existing characters. I think there's a jedi named Belaya in the enclave on Dantooine who is supposed to be Juhani's friend so maybe just make it so you can ask her about Quatra.
I hope that I helped. Sorry for the long post and keep up the good work ;-)

 

The items would be creature items (= hidden items that the player cannot access) anyway so that's not the problem. The issue is simply that I cannot give force powers with those and feats given with items won't show up as acquired feats in the level up screen. The alignment shift is a very good idea but that'd conflict with another system in this mod so I'm afraid I can't use this :(

 

And the problem with adding dialog options to existing characters is that I need to get voice overs for those and they have to sound like the original character. If that weren't the case I'd simply add the dialog to one of the Council members.

 

@superSzym: You'll see when the mod is done :)



#46 DarthNonOriginalName

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 02:41 PM

Then, how about adding dialogue options to one of the characters who speak any kind of alien language? In that case you wouldn't need a voice over. Maybe master Zhar?
And for the feats, maybe you could do something like this - after first training you get item with rank 1 of desired feat. After next training you will get item with both rank 1 and rank 2 of that feat, and then, after the third training, an item with all 3 ranks.

#47 superSzym

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 02:43 PM

The items would be creature items (= hidden items that the player cannot access) anyway so that's not the problem. The issue is simply that I cannot give force powers with those and feats given with items won't show up as acquired feats in the level up screen. The alignment shift is a very good idea but that'd conflict with another system in this mod so I'm afraid I can't use this :(

And the problem with adding dialog options to existing characters is that I need to get voice overs for those and they have to sound like the original character. If that weren't the case I'd simply add the dialog to one of the Council members.

@superSzym: You'll see when the mod is done :)

I think you could make Quatra appear in the spaceport section after Xor's death, give her a new head and new voiceovers. It would be really nice.

Maybe some different options what to do with Quatra? I mean, it would be awesome if you could kill her yourself, leave her alive (if you're planning some redemption opportunities for Juhani, it'd be a good one) or make Juhani kill her and fulfill her path to the dark side.

Have you tried using a script based on TSL ones for a Force power? I think there's a possibility it could work. If it won't, I think training her isn't necessary, as you can't train her in any way if you're on a light side.

I really look forward to this mod, maybe you could give us another video or at least screenshots of some conversations that differ from their light side counterpart?

#48 Kexikus

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:02 PM

I think you could make Quatra appear in the spaceport section after Xor's death, give her a new head and new voiceovers. It would be really nice.

Maybe some different options what to do with Quatra? I mean, it would be awesome if you could kill her yourself, leave her alive (if you're planning some redemption opportunities for Juhani, it'd be a good one) or make Juhani kill her and fulfill her path to the dark side.

Have you tried using a script based on TSL ones for a Force power? I think there's a possibility it could work. If it won't, I think training her isn't necessary, as you can't train her in any way if you're on a light side.

I really look forward to this mod, maybe you could give us another video or at least screenshots of some conversations that differ from their light side counterpart?

 

I thought of having Quatra as the "messenger" that appears for Dark Side Juhanis companion quest. In that case I would replace the Xor quest with Quatras appearance but in the end that would cause too many issues. The first would be that the Jedi don't know that Juhani is your apprentice. Instead they believe that she's dead so Quatra would probably not search for Juhani. And if she did, the rest of the Jedi would probably know about it so if she were to die in that encounter the Council would probably learn of her death. And I can't really have the player character openly kill a Jedi since the story needs him/her to work with the Council later.

 

Writing that though I once again feel like I really want to have that encounter... Having two companion quests for her would be weird though and I don't want to loose the Xor encounter. Also there are the aforementioned problems. Still... I'll think about it.

 

For the force powers: The problem is simply that TSL has functions to give feats and spells and K1 does not. So there is no way to do it that easy.

 

And I'll think about the screenshots. Videos I won't do since I don't want to spoil the "storyline" of the mod :)



#49 superSzym

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:17 PM

I thought of having Quatra as the "messenger" that appears for Dark Side Juhanis companion quest. In that case I would replace the Xor quest with Quatras appearance but in the end that would cause too many issues. The first would be that the Jedi don't know that Juhani is your apprentice. Instead they believe that she's dead so Quatra would probably not search for Juhani. And if she did, the rest of the Jedi would probably know about it so if she were to die in that encounter the Council would probably learn of her death. And I can't really have the player character openly kill a Jedi since the story needs him/her to work with the Council later.
 
Writing that though I once again feel like I really want to have that encounter... Having two companion quests for her would be weird though and I don't want to loose the Xor encounter. Also there are the aforementioned problems. Still... I'll think about it.
 
For the force powers: The problem is simply that TSL has functions to give feats and spells and K1 does not. So there is no way to do it that easy.
 
And I'll think about the screenshots. Videos I won't do since I don't want to spoil the "storyline" of the mod :)

Then maybe leave Juhani untrained and thinking she killed her master. Actually, training won't make much sense anyway as before the Levisthan your kbowledge about Sith powers is very limited and after the Leviathan, if your last planet is Korriban, you've got an option to say that you know about the dark side more than Uthar, but you don't remember. So, being lore-friendly, you don't remember much about the dark side powers, so you cannot teacxh Juhani.

#50 jc2

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:52 PM

Then maybe leave Juhani untrained and thinking she killed her master. Actually, training won't make much sense anyway as before the Levisthan your kbowledge about Sith powers is very limited and after the Leviathan, if your last planet is Korriban, you've got an option to say that you know about the dark side more than Uthar, but you don't remember. So, being lore-friendly, you don't remember much about the dark side powers, so you cannot teacxh Juhani.

This is a valid point. 

Also, how Darkside are you going to make Juhani. Would not Bastila, Carth, even Jolee Bindo, have an issue letting a Sith aboard? Would she go by an alias? Would she act deceptively as a half jedi, similar to how Jolee acts, or would she be a total Sith manipulator like Palpatine, Kreia, and many other sith. Besides, Bastila isn't trained enough nor would have enough experience to accurately detect a sith presence in Juhani. 

 

I don't know if you have thought of these questions, but I thought I would voice them. 


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#51 Kexikus

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 02:09 PM

Then maybe leave Juhani untrained and thinking she killed her master. Actually, training won't make much sense anyway as before the Levisthan your kbowledge about Sith powers is very limited and after the Leviathan, if your last planet is Korriban, you've got an option to say that you know about the dark side more than Uthar, but you don't remember. So, being lore-friendly, you don't remember much about the dark side powers, so you cannot teacxh Juhani.

 

That makes a lot of sense. I guess I'll not have the training then for the following reasons: Lore wise you don't have enough knowledge about the dark side to teach her. None of the other party members can be trained in any way so it stays consistent. And the technical implementation would be less than ideal.

 

This is a valid point. 

Also, how Darkside are you going to make Juhani. Would not Bastila, Carth, even Jolee Bindo, have an issue letting a Sith aboard? Would she go by an alias? Would she act deceptively as a half jedi, similar to how Jolee acts, or would she be a total Sith manipulator like Palpatine, Kreia, and many other sith. Besides, Bastila isn't trained enough nor would have enough experience to accurately detect a sith presence in Juhani. 

 

I don't know if you have thought of these questions, but I thought I would voice them. 

 

I have to admit that this is probably the weak spot of this mod. The thing is that there is pretty much no interaction between the party members except for some rare banter and neither is there any dialog with one party member about the others, so you don't really get to know what they think of each other.

But to answer your question: My reasoning for why it can work that Juhani is dark sided and be with the Jedi is that they apparently don't care about the player's dark side actions either. I mean there is some dialog for it but as I stated above there's no such thing between the party members.

And a little more specific: The Council won't know that Juhani is your apprentice. And Juhani (and you as a dark side player) pretend to work for the Jedi up to the final decision on the Unknown World so we just have to assume that Bastila, Carth and the others turn a blind eye to your dark side actions and to the fact that Juhani is dark sided.

 

I know that this is not the best solution but it's the way it is without having to change too much in the game.


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#52 Leilukin

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 01:33 AM

One question: With this mod, how much different the dark side version of Juhani's romance will be from the light side/vanilla version?


#53 Kexikus

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 10:20 AM

 

One question: With this mod, how much different the dark side version of Juhani's romance will be from the light side/vanilla version?

 

 

There will be almost no difference. The party member dialog has been changed so there are some other tiny dialog bits here and there, but in general it remains the same.

The final romance scene is actually one of the few scenes I haven't written yet, so I can't tell you for certain but I have no big changes planned there.



#54 superSzym

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 10:39 AM

I'm really looking forward to this mod! Would love to see some screenshots!

#55 Kexikus

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 08:47 PM

I've been thinking about the whole "the party ignores you recruiting a dark Jedi / Sith" thing. I can see Jolee, Mission and even Carth accepting this and trusting in you knowing what you're doing and thus not telling the Jedi Council. The problem here is Bastila, so I figured that adding a short scene where Bastila confronts you after you recruited Juhani would probably improve this mod. Maybe I'd even add Carth to the scene. What I currently don't know is how the player would convince Bastila not to run to the Council and tell them that you are on the best way to become a Sith.

 

Keep in mind that Bastila should be intelligent enough to get that the Cathar Jedi named Juhani is the same Cathar Jedi named Juhani that you supposedly killed on Dantooine. So the argument you make has to be at least close to being good^^ However, you can justify pretty much everything with: "I do what's necessary." in this game, so that might be one option here as well. But if anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

 

@superSzym: If I had any screenshots to show, I would do that. There might be something coming up in this regard and once it does, I'll post a screenshot :)



#56 CrashBandiTeam

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 08:48 PM

Could Pursade/Lie or Force Pursade work at Bastila? i mean, i don't know... that would be my ideas.


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#57 superSzym

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:06 PM

  • (Persuade/Lie) She needs redemption - and the Council doesn't have the strength to. They cannot bring her back to the light - but I can, and I have to.
  • (possibly Persuade) To defeat Malak, we need help from everyone who can provide it, no matter whether it's a Jedi, a Mandalorian or a Sith. That's why i brought her here, and you must accept that.
  • (Lie) You're right, Bastila. I will make her leave us as soon as we will have no more use of her.
  • I trust her more than I do trust you, Princess. (Add Canderous to the cutscene and make him show his approval :) )
  • It's none of your business - I bring who I want to.
  • You're right, Bastila. (kill Juhani)

This could happen on Dantooine Enclave landing pad when you leave Dantooine.

#58 CrashBandiTeam

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:09 PM

Like it, but the last has to give dark side points, cuz Jedis don't execute anyone, no matter how hard their crime was ;)


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#59 superSzym

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:18 PM

After thinking, the last could trigger Bastila speaking that it's good, cause we cannot afford a dark Jedi and woving to execute her and Juhani speaking about wishing to learn from you and her loyalty and gratitude. Then it could happen something like:
  • You're right Bastila. A dark Jedi onboard the Ebon Hawk is a true danger for our mission. We must execute her. (Kill Juhani, DS)
  • I cannot let an useful being die. She may prove herself worthy of keeping. (Keep Juhani, Neutral)
  • You're a hipocryte, Bastila. I remember you preaching about mercy. (Keep Juhani, Neutral)
  • I'm a Jedi, Bastila. And a true Jedi never executes a person in need, no matter of their past crimes. (Keep Juhani, LS)


#60 Kexikus

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 09:19 PM

 

  • (Persuade/Lie) She needs redemption - and the Council doesn't have the strength to. They cannot bring her back to the light - but I can, and I have to.
  • (possibly Persuade) To defeat Malak, we need help from everyone who can provide it, no matter whether it's a Jedi, a Mandalorian or a Sith. That's why i brought her here, and you must accept that.
  • (Lie) You're right, Bastila. I will make her leave us as soon as we will have no more use of her.
  • I trust her more than I do trust you, Princess. (Add Canderous to the cutscene and make him show his approval :D )
  • It's none of your business - I bring who I want to.
  • You're right, Bastila. (kill Juhani)

This could happen on Dantooine Enclave landing pad when you leave Dantooine.

 

 

Thanks for those excellent suggestions :D

The first three will definetly work and I'll make sure to offer those. For the next two I'm not completely convinced if that would actually stop Bastila from telling the Council. But I might be able to make them work.

I'll definetly not go with the last option even though it sounds nice since Bastila wouldn't want you to kill Juhani, which means that you'd have to force Juhani to go back to Dantooine which would result in Juhani attacking her, which could actually work... Maybe I will use that option^^

 

Edit: Wow, I changed my mind quite quickly while writing that last sentence xD

 

Edit 2: Those would be some nice DS/LS options indeed (in your latest post). I'll see what I can cobble together here... And that scene is now getting far more complex than I had intended.






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