15 replies to this topic

[ZM90]

I know most people here love beta and cut content but, what does everyone here think about video game prototypes? I personally love them and I find them interesting. Shortly after the internet was created it started to become commonplace for certain people in video game companies to leak the prototypes of their games to communities online. One video game company in particular is very friendly to their community allowing them to be able to play and keep and preserve their prototypes in digital form, that company being SEGA. The policy of SEGA regarding the prototypes is that it is okay for the online community to have their prototypes as long as they are not leaked before the retail game is available, in fact did you know Yuji Naka wanted to put a prototype of Sonic the Hedgehog in "Sonic Mega Collection" but that SEGA had lost that long ago so it went unpreserved? Now my philosophy regarding prototypes is not too far off from how SEGA operates with the exception of I believe if they are very early that they should be able to be leaked before the retail game being that the retail would be significantly different anyway (usually) but if they are near final the internet should have to wait until retail before the prototype would get leaked. Prototypes not only allow us to see the what a game was like in a earlier state and allow us to experience removed features but there are some prototypes that are of entirely unreleased games such as "Star Fox 2" for example. Now to the Deadly Stream community I shall not link to any prototypes here for that would probably get me in trouble. I just thought we could have a great debate about prototype preservation and that I could get some insight from some people on the other side and we could all learn something from it.

[Mandalore]

I think they should, but not before the actual release - people may make and sell their own copies from that prototype, which would be cheating the publishers and developers of the actual game. As long as the game's been released, certainly - EA has a whole load of free downloads of Spore prototype software.

[Malkior]

Ironically I approach a bit of a legal grey area when I think about revising and otherwise graphically improving old games that were good in concept, but poor in execution. I have a few that I've been trying to improve (for myself), but have been hampered by a lack of original game resources. I personally approve of companies that release SDKs and those that (at least tolerate) modding. I know this is regarding prototype builds, but SDKs are rather similar, I think.

Edit__

That said, I refer to games that have been well released and played before any SDK or Early Builds are made available. I would never mod or copy a game if I didn't already own it for some time.

[ZM90]

I think they should, but not before the actual release - people may make and sell their own copies from that prototype, which would be cheating the publishers and developers of the actual game. As long as the game's been released, certainly - EA has a whole load of free downloads of Spore prototype software.

Right I would never advocate selling fake copies of a prototype. I think that even if the prototypes on a person's computer are ROMs as long as they are not making a profit off of it it's perfectly fine. I mean I am guilty of having several prototypes preserved on my computer such as.

Several prototypes of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 which the internet DOES have permission from SEGA to have.
Star Fox 2 Alpha and near final versions (a unreleased game)
A prerelease version of Chrono Trigger
A prototype of Glover and Glover 2 which Glover 2 is a unreleased game
The leaked Mass Effect 3 Private BETA
and even a prototype of the original Legend of Zelda

I also have a E3 prototype of Spirit Tracks on the actual cartridge!

That doesn't list all of my prototypes though however with the exception of the unreleased games I have the legal retail versions of the final versions of the games that the prototypes are earlier versions of.

No I won't tell anyone how to find those, although I will note the leaked BETA for ME3 was sort of annoying to find and Bioware did a pretty good job of removing it from the internet but seeing as how I am such a BETA enthusiast I eventually found it anyway, oh and I also went through all the text data .

Note: By fake copies of a prototype I will give an example. Say someone dumped a prototype of Star Wars:KotOR for Xbox and say it gets leaked. The only real prototype would be the one on the disc and copying the prototype to another disc would technically make it a fake prototype. I have no problem with someone selling a actual prototype so it CAN be leaked and preserved but trying to make a profit off a copy of a leaked prototype is low.

[TWINKEYRUNAWAY]

I mean of course. Sometimes it give the people a chance to recover and improve things removed. I know I would kill to get my hands on the prototype for Sleheyron level that was supposed to be in the first KotOR.

[ZM90]

I mean of course. Sometimes it give the people a chance to recover and improve things removed. I know I would kill to get my hands on the prototype for Sleheyron level that was supposed to be in the first KotOR.

There's actually some prototypes of the Super Star Wars games. I think I have them somewhere on my old computer.

There's a few prototypes I'd kill to get my hands on too such as

Zelda64
Sonic Xtreme
Conker64
The early prototype of Sonic the Hedgehog that Yuji Naka had planned to be released for Sonic Mega Collection
A early prototype of SW: KotOR with Sleyheyron

[Malkior]

I would burn holes in things to get ANYTHING from the Star Wars Bounty Hunter game; a launch title with the coolest and most ambitious of ideas executed incredibly poorly.

Also anyone who would actually finish the updates of Jedi Knight 1 and 2 would be in my gratitude.

Incidentally, have you guys heard of the Black Mesa Source project?; basically a remake of HL 1 in HL 2's graphics and with its hi-res level of detail. (effectively what I'm wanting to do with BH )

I've found Valve to be a cool company for letting the community work with their game assets and builds as well, though I don't know what they did regarding Garry's Mod.

[ZM90]

Yeah most video game companies get pretty pissed over ROMs and emulation and that includes prototypes. SEGA is cool about people having ROMs of their prototypes though. The protos I find most interesting tend to be N64 protos and I've been hoping for forever beyond hope that a early prototype of Ocarina of Time when it was only known as "Zelda64" in the previews would get leaked mainly due to the massive differences. The good news is we are starting to get more Zelda protos leaked and that used to be a rarity but the internet now has a prototype of the original Legend of Zelda, a E3 prototype of Twilight Princess, and even the E3 demo of Skyward Sword. I am predicting that within at least 10 years we will see a prototype of the elusive "Zelda64" leaked.

[Mandalore]

I hadn't considered unreleased games, and for them, I think prototypes and betas should certainly be released.

I would burn holes in things to get ANYTHING from the Star Wars Bounty Hunter game; a launch title with the coolest and most ambitious of ideas executed incredibly poorly.

Why do you think Bounty Hunter's bad? I've got it, I think it's fantastic (on PS2).

[ZM90]

I hadn't considered unreleased games, and for them, I think prototypes and betas should certainly be released.

As I've said I have absolutely no problems with ROMs and emulation as long as people are not making a profit by doing something like putting the prototype ROM on a cartridge or disc and selling it. You know Star Fox 2 is a finished unreleased game (with the exception that it still had debug features in the ROM) and I sometimes play the ROM and it's actually pretty fun and it had a lot of good ideas that got used in later games. In fact I was recently introduced to a way to play the SNES, N64, and Sega Genesis prototype ROMs on their actual consoles.

What's your position on betas that are significantly different from the final? I personally think those along with unreleased games take high priority in preservation and sharing but I think that betas with very little difference from the final version take lower priority.

[Mandalore]

I agree - we should be able to see beta games that are different to the real one, as some people may prefer the unused version (replacing the Exchange with the GenoHaraden and Goto's Yacht with M4-78, for example).

[ZM90]

I agree - we should be able to play beta games that are different to the final version, as some people may prefer the beta version (replacing the Exchange with the GenoHaraden and Goto's Yacht with M4-78, for example).

fix'd

[Mandalore]

Indeed - at the start of that sentence I had an analogy in mind that I didn't bother with. Such is the beta version of my reply...

[ZM90]

Such is the beta version of my reply...

Calling that the beta version of your reply is a analogy win!

[Malkior]

Why do you think Bounty Hunter's bad? I've got it, I think it's fantastic (on PS2).

I've had it for years and I still consider it among one of my favorite to play, but it has many, many technical and artistic faults that make it so much less than it was destined to be, for instance:

It had shoddy texture quality (especially for a PS2 game);

The AI was almost humorous in its detection quality and reactions/intelligence (the enemies could detect you across the map if you fired a weapon and would run breakneck-speed toward your direction either firing blindly or just giving you a good shot at them and they never used cover. They would also change from neutral to aggressive in a split second without any indication as to whether they should have, I most noticed this would happen when they would "surrender");

The hit detection for melee was frustrating, and the pistol couldn't kill in one hit ESPECIALLY at point-blank. Also the flamethrower was difficult to aim and even more difficult to actually hit enemies reliably with;

The sound quality wavered from acceptable to flat/airy;

The programming was the worst offender of all. The music would sometimes play at inopportune moments or not at all. I found myself waiting for animations and sounds to play when they should. However, even though these animations and sounds were obviously taking forever, the loading screens (which would have taken less time since they obviously weren't pre-loading them) still took a while to load;

The quality of design and attention to detail was terrible as well. For example, the turret in the jungles of Malistare was visually too small to hold its own weight and I even saw some turrets that clipped and floated above the ground geometry. The larger caliber lasers had absolutely no effect on the environment. (the laser blasts didn't make small explosions where they hit as they should if anyone cared that larger caliber blasters make bigger blasts) Some of the in-game cinematics had no background elements for detail purposes and most geometry was limited in its detail. (The worst example of this is the utter lack of any detail or quality in the last Roz cutscene)

Suffice it to be said, there were many problems with the execution and design in the game development.

Still I like the characters and the story is still rather well done; also the pre-rendered cutscenes are especially well made.
I just wish the rest if it was as well.

[Mandalore]

I understand your points, but I tend to overlook that sort of thing - for me, story and content is far more important than the aesthetics. I agree with your point on the flamethrower though.